Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Mark Quayle]

But you're letting go that which is just from the other end of the spectrum. It's unjust to force someone into a relationship with one who doesn't want it.

No, I don’t understand. How would it be unjust for God, in His mercy, to take out a heart of stone which freely hates God, and put in a heart of flesh that freely loves God?

How is it unjust for God to do whatever he pleases with what is his?

 

[baptist4life]

I've been saved since I was eleven years old. That's well over 50 years ago.
I belong to a General Association of Regular Baptists church.
It's only been recently that I even knew about the whole Calvinism/Arminian debate.
I believe God has given everyone a free will to either except Him or reject Him.
I believe that He desires everyone to be saved. I believe He loves us all.
I believe it grieves Him to see someone reject Him.
I believe He knows who will accept/reject Him already, but I do not believe He created people who He would give NO OPPORTUNITY to come to Him.
I'm sorry, but that is just NOT the God of Scripture.
I believe once you're His child by repentance and faith, asking Him to forgive your sin, and give you eternal life, that you cannot lose that Salvation.
I wouldn't call myself either one, but I would NEVER accept Calvinism, and I definitely have more in common with Arminians. I'm not sure where you all would categorize me, but I just call myself a born again Christian.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I've been saved since I was eleven years old. That's well over 50 years ago.
I belong to a GARB Church. It's only been recently that I even knew about the whole Calvinism/Arminian debate.
I believe God has given everyone a free will to either except Him or reject Him.
I believe that He desires everyone to be saved. I believe He loves us all.
I believe it grieves Him to see someone reject Him.
I believe He knows who will accept/reject Him already, but I do not believe He created people who He would give NO OPPORTUNITY to come to Him.
I'm sorry, but that is just NOT the God of Scripture.
I believe once you're His child by repentance and faith, asking Him to forgive your sin, and give you eternal life, that you cannot lose that Salvation.
So I wouldn't call myself either one, and I would NEVER accept Calvinism, but I definitely have more in common with Arminians. I'm not sure where you all would categorize me, but I call myself a born again Christian.

Sorry, but what is your point? What does what you would never call yourself, and your list of what you believe, have to do with the argument?

 

[baptist4life]

First, I'm not here to "argue". Are you? I don't think when God finds His children "arguing" He considers it to be a fruit of the Spirit. But that's me. I just thought before I posted any more, it would help you all to know where I stand. That's all.

 

[John Mullally]

It's only been recently that I even knew about the whole Calvinism/Arminian debate.

I commend you for exploring other Christian views. That prompts us to better study our Bible.

 

[Mark Quayle]

How is it fair that God created someone with no free will, gave them no opportunity to do anything but what He preordained them to do before He even created them, and then punish them eternally for doing it?

IMHO, Calvinism has God creating robots. They do EXACTLY what He created them to do (Calvinists believe God controls everything) then sends them to Hell without any opportunity to repent, for doing those very things. <---------Calvinism in a nutshell. Crazy, imho.

Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden. That broke our relationship to God. The God of Scripture sent His Son to die on a cross to cover mankind's sin, and restore that relationship. But, God did not create us as pre-programmed robots with no choice other than do what He predestined them to do. He loves us enough to not force us to love Him. Does He know who will come to Him? Yes. But He's a God who allows us to make that choice for ourselves. God says "I sent my Son to pay your debt. It's paid in full. Just come to Me and receive it. You need to add nothing, bring nothing, contribute nothing." Or you can refuse. It's like leaving your present under the Christmas tree. It's there, it's yours, you did nothing to earn it, it's a free gift. But, it's your choice to leave it there or not.

Look at your word, "opportunity". Implies ability to do either one of the two choices. You may as well say, "chance", for all the difference it will make. You will only choose one of them, whichever you want. THAT is the one God ordained for you to choose. You may not have known which it was until you chose, but it was the one, nevertheless.

So what's your objection? You can't prove that you could have chosen either one. You can only prove the one you chose. If you want to declare independence and claim that God only decreed it as a result of seeing what you will choose, go ahead. Doesn't change the fact that he decreed it from the beginning.

 

[baptist4life]

So what's your objection?

Calvinists say God CREATED a person WITHOUT the ability to ever choose. He CREATED them to be eternally punished in Hell for the WAY He created them. To be condemned for doing what He PREORDAINED they would do. He created them knowing full well that they would sin, just so He could condemn them. However.....Paul is speaking to a group of Athenians here.......

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent........ (Acts 17:30).

So, do you think God commands people to do what He has made it impossible for them to do?"

That makes sense to you?

That's not the God of Scripture.....sorry.

 

[baptist4life]

Doesn't change the fact that he decreed it from the beginning.

You're confusing "decreed" with "foreknew". Big difference.

 

[John Mullally]

I find the Calvinist interprettation of Romans 9:28-30 far-fetched. But even if the interprettation seemed reasonable, there is one logical result of that interprrettation, which is "God predestinating many to hell", that, would get me running the other way.

Run away, then.

God desires all men to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.​

Calvinist teach that God predestines many to hell well before their birth. I run away from any theology that rejects 1 Timothy 2:4 and puts God in league with Satan.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

 

[Hammster]

Jesus's statement in Mark 16:15-16 was made shortly after resurrection. In Mark 16:15-16 receipt of the forgiveness Jesus paid for all of humanity is predicated on believing the Gospel.

I refer you back to Post 275 for more information.

So based on my thought experiment, why would Ralph be punished? It can’t be sin because, as you stated, Christ paid for that sin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Calvinists say God CREATED a person WITHOUT the ability to ever choose. He CREATED them to be eternally punished in Hell for the WAY He created them. To be condemned for doing what He PREORDAINED they would do. He created them knowing full well that they would sin, just so He could condemn them. However.....Paul is speaking to a group of Athenians here.......

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent........ (Acts 17:30).

So, do you think God commands people to do what He has made it impossible for them to do?"

That makes sense to you?

That's not the God of Scripture.....sorry.

You say, "Calvinists say God CREATED a person WITHOUT the ability to ever choose." Not so! That is YOUR extrapolation of what Calvinists do say. The lost CAN and DO choose. And always choose according to their will, their inclinations. Nobody is stopping them from choosing according to what they want.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You're confusing "decreed" with "foreknew". Big difference.

I expect you mean, "conflating", but no, I'm not. Both are words to which we attach our incomplete understanding. But I'm expecting you think that foreknow is something like looking down the corridors of time to see what he sees. That is not the Biblical use of it. But both God's "Decree" and his "Foreknowledge" are active words, concerning HIS will.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God desires all men to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.​

Calvinist teach that God predestines many to hell well before their birth. I run away from any theology that rejects 1 Timothy 2:4 and puts God in league with Satan.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

If God, indeed, desires all men to be saved, will all people be saved? If not, is God either incapable or is He somehow unwilling to save each and every person on earth? Why did He save only eight people in the Flood, leaving the rest of humanity to perish?

 

[baptist4life]

If God, indeed, desires all men to be saved, will all people be saved?

No, because He gave man free will, and they will refuse Him. God didn't make everyone a robot.

2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[John Mullally]

Scripture tells us Christ took the punishment for the sin of all mankind, even those presently in hell (1Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 2:1). Jesus, the one who took the punishment, tells us that receiving that payment is not automatic, but requires belief on the part of the recipient.

So based on my thought experiment, why would Ralph be punished? It can’t be sin because, as you stated, Christ paid for that sin.

Like I said the payment requires belief on the part of the recipient. That means it is received conditionally. If you don't meet the conditions you don't receive forgiveness of sins.

When people say things I disagree with, I frequently make arguments against what they say. I don't purposely misrepresent what they say because I fear God. I hope you agree with me on that.

 

[John Mullally]

If God, indeed, desires all men to be saved, will all people be saved? If not, is God either incapable or is He somehow unwilling to save each and every person on earth?

God is always interested in the repentance of even a single sinner (Luke 15:7). Although God wants everyone saved, He sets conditions. Here are the conditions for salvation laid down by Jesus just after His resurrection.

Mark 16: 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​

In the OT, Ezekiel pleads with men to repent before the Lord in order to be saved.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?​

Why did He save only eight people in the Flood, leaving the rest of humanity to perish?

2 Peter 2:5 describes Noah as a preacher. Apparently, he was only able to persuade the 8.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, because He gave man free will, and they will refuse Him. God didn't make everyone a robot.

2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So, although God has warm feelings of kindness and good will to mankind, He is incapable of actually saving all of mankind because human will trumps His will any day of the week.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God is always interested in the repentance of even a single sinner (Luke 15:7). Although God wants everyone saved, He sets conditions. Here are the conditions for salvation laid down by Jesus just after His resurrection.

Mark 16: 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​

In the OT, Ezekiel pleads with men to repent before the Lord in order to be saved.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?​

2 Peter 2:5 describes Noah as a preacher. Apparently, he was only able to persuade the 8.

It seems that Noah was rather pathetic if only seven joined him in the ark. However, he at least was able to persuade mating pairs of each animal into the ark with additional space allotted for more mating pairs of clean animals.

Who selected the animals for the ark? Did the animals make decisions not to enter the ark with only two of each unclean species deciding to enter the ark?

 

[John Mullally]

That is not the Biblical use of it. But both God's "Decree" and his "Foreknowledge" are active words, concerning HIS will.

The use of "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew." in Romans 11:2 is past tense. Examples of "His people whom he foreknew" in verses that immediately follow reference OT saints Elijah and David. who had long ago left this planet. Elijah left in a flaming chariot - what a way to go!

 

[John Mullally]

Who selected the animals for the ark? Did the animals make decisions not to enter the ark with only two of each unclean species deciding to enter the ark.

The Bible does not say and I wasn't there.