Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Hammster]

God sent his son to suffer and die in order to save us from hell - that is love. Jesus who did the suffering lays out the terms for receiving the gift in Mark 16:16.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

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Would you allow one of your kids to suffer and die to save others that currently hate you?

No. But I’m not the one making the claim that God loves everyone so much that He sent His Son to pay the penalty for someone’s sins who He was just going to punish for those same sins, anyway. That’s not even loving to His Son. In fact, is quite unjust.

I find the Calvinist interprettation of Romans 9:28-30 far-fetched. But even if the interprettation seemed reasonable, there is one logical result of that interprrettation, which is "God predestinating many to hell", that, would get me running the other way.

Run away, then.

 

[Hammster]

Yes a judge may have to sentence his offspring to a life sentence. That doesn't mean he didn't love them. Would any fair person accuse a judge of having not loved them even though he had to do a difficult thing?

I would accuse that judge of being unjust.

 

[Bobber]

No. But I’m not the one making the claim that God loves everyone so much that He sent His Son to pay the penalty for someone’s sins who He was just going to punish for those same sins, anyway.

So then you're one who would force a relationship. If you were courting a potential spouse you wouldn't care it they said yes or no you'd just handcuff them and tell them you're coming with me and you're going to love me whether you want to or not. Not so with God. He knows with LOVE one needs to provide liberty and freedom of will to choose.

 

[Bobber]

I would accuse that judge of being unjust.

And I'm glad most reading this wouldn't agree with you. They'd know regardless whether the judge loves his son or not he MUST carry out justice.

 

[Hammster]

So then you're one who would force a relationship. If you were courting a potential spouse you wouldn't care it they said yes or no you'd just handcuff them and tell them you're coming with me and you're going to love me whether you want to or not. Not so with God. He knows with LOVE one needs to provide liberty and freedom of will to choose.

You do understand God changes hearts, right?

 

[Hammster]

And I'm glad most reading this wouldn't agree with you. They'd know regardless whether the judge loves his son or not he MUST carry out justice.

Is it really justice to punish someone for a crime that someone else already paid the penalty for?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Are you saying Calvinists don't do that all the time? I'd say readers and lurkers are seeing you're merely projecting.

It could be I am projecting. Fair enough. But not 'merely'.

 

[Bobber]

You do understand God changes hearts, right?

And you do understand he doesn't do so using an irresistible force to do so? You do understand that would be unjust and not the way of love?

 

[Bobber]

Is it really justice to punish someone for a crime that someone else already paid the penalty for?

But you're letting go that which is just from the other end of the spectrum. It's unjust to force someone into a relationship with one who doesn't want it.

 

[Hammster]

And you do understand he doesn't do so using an irresistible force to do so? You do understand that would be unjust and not the way of love?

No, I don’t understand. How would it be unjust for God, in His mercy, to take out a heart of stone which freely hates God, and put in a heart of flesh that freely loves God?

 

[Hammster]

But you're letting go that which is just from the other end of the spectrum. It's unjust to force someone into a relationship with one who doesn't want it.

Please don’t avoid the question. Is it really justice to punish someone for a crime that someone else already paid the penalty for?

 

[John Mullally]

Please don’t avoid the question. Is it really justice to punish someone for a crime that someone else already paid the penalty for?

People can perish and die in their sins today, even though everything necessary for their salvation has been fully provided by God. It’s not a double-payment by sinners in Hell, but rather people having declined to receive the payment that would have otherwise satisfied their debt, thus establishing a basis for accountability.

As an analogy, if you choose not to cash a check that was written out to you, that doesn’t mean that the check was bad. So, too, those who refuse Jesus’ free gift of forgiveness cannot allege a double payment, since the transaction, though perfectly valid and completed on the giver’s end, was never completed on the recipient’s end.

 

[Hammster]

People can perish and die in their sins today, even though everything necessary for their salvation has been fully provided by God. It’s not a double-payment by sinners in Hell, but rather people having declined to receive the payment that would have otherwise satisfied their debt, thus establishing a basis for accountability.

As an analogy, if you choose not to cash a check that was written out to you, that doesn’t mean that the check was bad. So, too, those who refuse Jesus’ free gift of forgiveness cannot allege a double payment, since the transaction, though perfectly valid and completed on the giver’s end, was never completed on the recipient’s end.

If we were talking about checks, you’d be correct. However, Christ took the actual punishment for sin. To punish someone else for that sin would be unjust.

 

[John Mullally]

No, I don’t understand. How would it be unjust for God, in His mercy, to take out a heart of stone which freely hates God, and put in a heart of flesh that freely loves God?

Why does change some people's hearts and not others. Scripture tells us the reason.

In Ezekiel 18:30-32 addressed to OT Jewish sinners on their way to death: These sinners are promised life and receiving a new heart and spirit if they repent. In verse 30 & 31, the order is:

1. "Repent, Turn away,,,,Rid yourself"
2. "...Get a new heart and a new spirit".

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

1. "Repent and ...."
2. "....live!".

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

 

[Hammster]

Why does change some people's hearts and not others. Scripture tells us the reason.

In Ezekiel 18:30-32 addressed to OT Jewish sinners on their way to death: These sinners are promised life and receiving a new heart and spirit if they repent. In verse 30 & 31, the order is:

1. "Repent, Turn away,,,,Rid yourself"
2. "...Get a new heart and a new spirit".

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

1. "Repent and ...."
2. "....live!".

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Maybe someday I’ll get a question answered.

 

[John Mullally]

If we were talking about checks, you’d be correct. However, Christ took the actual punishment for sin. To punish someone else for that sin would be unjust.

I addressed post 274. But it sounds like you did not read post 275 as you are repeating yourself instead of pointing out flaws in my argument.

Scripture tells us Christ took the punishment for the sin of all mankind, even those presently in hell (1Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 2:1). Jesus, the one who took the punishment, tells us that receiving that payment is not automatic, but requires belief on the part of the recipient.

Mark 16:16 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.​

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Receiving forgiveness of sins through faith is not to be construed with men working for it.

 

[Hammster]

Scripture tells us Christ took the punishment for the sin of all mankind,even those presently in hell (1Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 2:1). Jesus, the one who took the punishment, tells us that receiving that payment is not automatic, but requires belief on the part of the recipient.

Mark 16:16 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.​

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Receiving forgiveness of sins through faith is not to be construed with men working for it.

Let’s try it this way. Let’s say, for illustrative purposes, that Ralph only sinned once. He lied to his wife one day. That lie would be enough to sentence him to hell. He dies unrepentant and unregenerate. But, according to you, Christ died for that sin.

What would Ralph be punished for in hell, if Christ already took the punishment for that sin?

 

[John Mullally]

No, I don’t understand. How would it be unjust for God, in His mercy, to take out a heart of stone which freely hates God, and put in a heart of flesh that freely loves God?

Maybe someday I’ll get a question answered.

That is an example of a "Gotcha" question. You ask a question "How would it be unjust for God to take out a heart of stone" that presumes a condition "which freely hates God". So any answer must conform to your condition (i.e. freely hate God). A scriptural answer to your question that shows God changing the heart of repentant man can thus be discarded.

In post 277 using Ezekiel 18:30-32, I explain the condition for God to change sinful men's heart (and spirit) and I show that it is not done to those who freely hate God as the sinners repentance is required. But you say, that is not an answer to your question - presummably because it does not demonstrate that the sinner freely hates God. Its hard to tell for certain because you don't explain yourself very well, so responding to you is frequently a guessing game on my part.

The problem is that yours is not an honest question - it is a "Gotcha" question that starts out as a reasonable question but at the end assumes a premise (i.e. freely hate God) that you know is not shared. In this kind of "Gotcha" question, no answer is accepted that does not accept your premise (i.e. freely hate God). Use of this method indicates you are not looking for honest discourse.

 

[John Mullally]

Let’s try it this way. Let’s say, for illustrative purposes, that Ralph only sinned once. He lied to his wife one day. That lie would be enough to sentence him to hell. He dies unrepentant and unregenerate. But, according to you, Christ died for that sin.

What would Ralph be punished for in hell, if Christ already took the punishment for that sin?

Jesus's statement in Mark 16:15-16 was made shortly after resurrection. In Mark 16:15-16 receipt of the forgiveness Jesus paid for all of humanity is predicated on believing the Gospel.

I refer you back to Post 275 for more information.

 

[baptist4life]

How is it fair that God created someone with no free will, gave them no opportunity to do anything but what He preordained them to do before He even created them, and then punish them eternally for doing it?

IMHO, Calvinism has God creating robots. They do EXACTLY what He created them to do (Calvinists believe God controls everything) then sends them to Hell without any opportunity to repent, for doing those very things. <---------Calvinism in a nutshell. Crazy, imho.

Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden. That broke our relationship to God. The God of Scripture sent His Son to die on a cross to cover mankind's sin, and restore that relationship. But, God did not create us as pre-programmed robots with no choice other than do what He predestined them to do. He loves us enough to not force us to love Him. Does He know who will come to Him? Yes. But He's a God who allows us to make that choice for ourselves. God says "I sent my Son to pay your debt. It's paid in full. Just come to Me and receive it. You need to add nothing, bring nothing, contribute nothing." Or you can refuse. It's like leaving your present under the Christmas tree. It's there, it's yours, you did nothing to earn it, it's a free gift. But, it's your choice to leave it there or not.