Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Bobber]

Not a single one. No point in reading further.

Well if you're NOT going to read and respond to valid points the poster made then don't. We can write to other readers and lurkers. His point was that Calvinists believe God is heartless to much of humanity. Many of you don't say those words you utter forth something like he brings them temporary crops and yet with the ONLY things that matters salvation you don't believe God has offered it. Sorry but that makes what the other poster said to be true.

 

[Bobber]

It’s only heartless if they deserve salvation and it’s denied.

And you continually steer away from what your Calvinism teaches.

That is before they even deserved anything from their actions you have God creating beings with hopes, dreams, the need to be loved JUST AS MUCH AS YOU POSSESS and you have them forced into disobedience because of an ordaining effect and you don't call that heartless??????

Sorry but I won't accept what you say. Never! If it was YOU which had an ordaining effect upon you YOU would declare up and down it was heartless. For the reason you seem to believe you're the elect you're fine with it.

 

[Bobber]

I think you mean that Calvinists are the only ones who recognize that we are actually sinners and none of us deserve any good thing from God.

I'd think you need to dial back and repent for making such an unreasonable statement. So you believe Non-Calvinists don't believe people aren't sinner's in need of salvation??????? Since when?????????

And how many are claiming, and give me a percentage now, for one can always have some nut saying anything but tell us what percentage of Non Calvinist's walk around saying mankind deserves to be saved!
You know you're being disingenuous in having made your statement and with all due respect you should admit it.

 

[Hammster]

No, I meant what I said. Calvin said God predestines many to hell before they are born. There fate is sealed before they take their first breath - at least Satan and the fallen angels had a choice.

From the non-Calvinist perspective, God is always interested in the sinner's repentance (Luke 15:7). God wants everyone, though not unconditionally but conditionally through faith (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:36-41, Romans 10:9-10).

I don’t want to have an extremely long post where I address every point. All I have is my phone, and it’s tiresome. Hence, the reason for my shorter posts.

If your view is correct, and we take it to its logical conclusion, we are left with Open Theism where God doesn’t know the future, so He tries to save everyone before the end. That’s not the case, though. God does know the end. God does know who will be saved, even in a synergist system. So even in your system, atonement is limited, and so is election.

 

[Hammster]

if you were to ask God to give you an “Irresistible Grace” so that you would never sin again, ever—you won’t get it

Heaven?

 

[Hammster]

Well if you're NOT going to read and respond to valid points the poster made then don't. We can write to other readers and lurkers. His point was that Calvinists believe God is heartless to much of humanity. Many of you don't say those words you utter forth something like he brings them temporary crops and yet with the ONLY things that matters salvation you don't believe God has offered it. Sorry but that makes what the other poster said to be true.

I know what his point was, and I know the arguments. I’ve been doing this for awhile. It’s a straw man based on a faulty premise. It assumes that everyone is worthy of salvation, and God is obligated to try to save everyone.

 

[Hammster]

I'd think you need to dial back and repent for making such an unreasonable statement. So you believe Non-Calvinists don't believe people aren't sinner's in need of salvation??????? Since when?????????

And how many are claiming, and give me a percentage now, for one can always have some nut saying anything but tell us what percentage of Non Calvinist's walk around saying mankind deserves to be saved!
You know you're being disingenuous in having made your statement and with all due respect you should admit it.

I do believe that you believe people are in need of salvation. But let’s look at the claim again. “God is heartless to much of humanity.”

And my response what that it’s only heartless if you believe that God is obligated to try to save everyone. He’s not obligated to try to save anyone.

So nobody says that mankind deserves to be saved. It’s just the logical conclusion from that type of statement.

 

[Bobber]

You speak like a pagan. How you get "fate" and "fate is sealed" out of God creating is truly puzzling.

It's puzzling why you're questioning the poster. You believe God decided before they were born what their end result would be because of his ordaining. How is that NOT sealing someone's fate??

You continue with this narrative that if God does something, it is therefore automatic.

And that it seems is how you sooth your conscious to try to accept Calvinism. You create some strange rhetoric that something isn't automatic, well then.....maybe in your thinking that justifies God.

But no non Calvinists has suggested it's automatic. We've told you what you're beliefs have stated that it's the ultimate thing that no man can change nor avoid for God has (in your estimation) ordained it.

You want the whole story under your skullcap.

All one needs to know is Calvinists say God ordains the evil. What you call the story doesn't matter if the ORDAINING has ultimately controlled everything. So your talking about the whole story or you're talking about things not automatic is just a diversion to get around your teaching of God ordaining everything. You're trying to smooth it over.

 

[Hammster]

All one needs to know is Calvinists say God ordains the evil.

As not to make an assumption, do you believe that there’s evil God doesn’t know about or can control?

 

[Bobber]

I do believe that you believe people are in need of salvation.

All right then don't suggest otherwise.

 

[Hammster]

All right then don't suggest otherwise.

Then are you going to amend your statement since I never suggested it?

 

[John Mullally]

I do believe that you believe people are in need of salvation. But let’s look at the claim again. “God is heartless to much of humanity.”

So nobody says that mankind deserves to be saved. It’s just the logical conclusion from that type of statement.

No one deserves to be pre-destined to hell before birth. And God would not do that because God is love (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16). Love thinks no evil and therefore does not decree men do evil. Love hopes all things and therefore does not predestine men birth to a hopeless end (i.e. hell).

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.​

Predestination: There is no aspect of biblical predestination that deals with God allegedly choosing certain unbelievers to make into believers. Predestination is not God saying from eternity that one man’s going to heaven and another man is going to hell. Predestination deals primarily with what God intends to do for those who trust Him and what God will do for saved people. Predestination teaches me on the authority of God that when I’ve trusted Christ as my personal Savior and Lord, I will be like Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:1-14 indicates that it is the "faithful in Christ" (v1) who are adopted to sonship (v5) and a glorious inheritance (v14).

 

[Hammster]

No one deserves to be pre-destined to hell before birth. And God would not do that because God is love (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16). Love thinks no evil and therefore does not decree men do evil. Love hopes all things and therefore does not predestine men birth to a hopeless end (i.e. hell).

1 Corinthians 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.​

Does love torment people in hell for eternity for not doing what it wants?

Predestination: There is no aspect of biblical predestination that deals with God allegedly choosing certain unbelievers to make into believers. Predestination is not God saying from eternity that one man’s going to heaven and another man is going to hell. Predestination deals primarily with what God intends to do for those who trust Him and what God will do for saved people. Predestination teaches me on the authority of God that when I’ve trusted Christ as my personal Savior and Lord, I will be like Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 1:1-14 indicates that it is the "faithful in Christ" (v1) who are adopted to sonship (v5) and a glorious inheritance (v14).

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
— Romans 8:28-30

He didn’t call the unpredestined.

 

[John Mullally]

Does love torment people in hell for eternity for not doing what it wants?

Although, God's justice condemns men to hell for sin, the love of God provides forgiveness of sin for those who repent in response to the preaching of the Gospel (Acts 2:36-41).

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
— Romans 8:28-30

Romans 11:2 is the only other occurrence of “foreknew” in the Book of Romans, and which clearly refers to the Old Testament saints. So, why not consider that as a way to interpret Scripture with Scripture?

So, if those foreknown at Romans 8:29 are identical to Romans 11:2 (with such foreknowledge being indicative of prior knowledge, such as with Acts 26:4-5; 2 Peter 3:17), then the net effect of Romans 8:28-31 would be that since we know of God’s faithfulness toward believers of old, we can trust that He will do the same for believers in the present and future who also love Him and are called by Him, and thus conclude, “who can stand against us?” Therefore, that which “we know” at v.28 is supported in v.29 as the reason why we know it, which is based upon what we’ve observed in the past of God’s dealings with His people. The past tense references of “predestined,” “called,” “justified” and “glorified” works well with this interpretation.

He didn’t call the unpredestined.

The Bible does not say that.

Jesus calls his disciples to preach the Gospel everywhere (Great Commision) and God call's all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Per Acts 2:36-41, those who repent and are baptized in response to the preaching of the Gospel receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (i.e. salvation).

 

[Hammster]

Although, God's justice condemns men to hell for sin, the love of God provides forgiveness of sin for those who repent in response to the preaching of the Gospel (Acts 2:36-41).

I’ll ask again. Does love torment people in hell for eternity for not doing what it wants? I don’t know if you have kids. I do. I love them. Even at their worst, I’d never subject them to hell. Why? Because I love them. They don’t even have to do anything. But your view of God has Him loving everyone so much that He sent His Son to die for everyone, but it’s only good if they do something good as well.

That’s not really love.

Romans 11:2 is the only other occurrence of “foreknew” in the Book of Romans, and which clearly refers to the Old Testament saints. So, why not consider that as a way to interpret Scripture with Scripture?

So, if those foreknown at Romans 8:29 are identical to Romans 11:2 (with such foreknowledge being indicative of prior knowledge, such as with Acts 26:4-5; 2 Peter 3:17), then the net effect of Romans 8:28-31 would be that since we know of God’s faithfulness toward believers of old, we can trust that He will do the same for believers in the present and future who also love Him and are called by Him, and thus conclude, “who can stand against us?” Therefore, that which “we know” at v.28 is supported in v.29 as the reason why we know it, which is based upon what we’ve observed in the past of God’s dealings with His people. The past tense references of “predestined,” “called,” “justified” and “glorified” works well with this interpretation.

That is quite impressive. I’ve not quite seen this level of gymnastics before just yo avoid the obvious.

Foreknew just means to know before. And there’s only a select group that He foreknows and conforms to the image of His Son.

The Bible does not say that.

Romans 8:28-30

Jesus calls his disciples to preach the Gospel everywhere (Great Commision) and God call's all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Per Acts 2:36-41, those who repent and are baptized in response to the preaching of the Gospel receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (i.e. salvation).

None of those verses say that He calls.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"That is quite impressive. I’ve not quite seen this level of gymnastics before just yo avoid the obvious."

Haha! Notice when some posters say, "It clearly shows..." and the like, there is a jump in logic they don't want you to see. And when there isn't, it is a distraction from where the jump IS.

 

[John Mullally]

I’ll ask again. Does love torment people in hell for eternity for not doing what it wants? I don’t know if you have kids. I do. I love them. Even at their worst, I’d never subject them to hell. Why? Because I love them. They don’t even have to do anything. But your view of God has Him loving everyone so much that He sent His Son to die for everyone, but it’s only good if they do something good as well.

God sent his son to suffer and die in order to save us from hell - that is love. Jesus who did the suffering lays out the terms for receiving the gift in Mark 16:16.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

​

Would you allow one of your kids to suffer and die to save others that currently hate you?

That is quite impressive. I’ve not quite seen this level of gymnastics before just yo avoid the obvious.

I find the Calvinist interprettation of Romans 9:28-30 far-fetched. But even if the interprettation seemed reasonable, there is one logical result of that interprrettation, which is "God predestinating many to hell", that, would get me running the other way.

 

[Bobber]

I find the Calvinist interprettation of Romans 9:28-30 far-fetched. But even if the interprettation seemed reasonable, there is one logical result of that interprrettation, which is "God predestinating many to hell", that, would get me running the other way.

And it certainly does not line up with scripture.

 

[Bobber]

I’ll ask again. Does love torment people in hell for eternity for not doing what it wants? I don’t know if you have kids. I do. I love them. Even at their worst, I’d never subject them to hell. Why? Because I love them.

Yes a judge may have to sentence his offspring to a life sentence. That doesn't mean he didn't love them. Would any fair person accuse a judge of having not loved them even though he had to do a difficult thing?

 

[Bobber]

"That is quite impressive. I’ve not quite seen this level of gymnastics before just yo avoid the obvious."

Haha! Notice when some posters say, "It clearly shows..." and the like, there is a jump in logic they don't want you to see.

Are you saying Calvinists don't do that all the time? I'd say readers and lurkers are seeing you're merely projecting.