Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[John Mullally]

So, although God has warm feelings of kindness and good will to mankind, He is incapable of actually saving all of mankind because human will trumps His will any day of the week.

Jesus laid out the conditions for salvation in Mark 16:15-16. Those conditions require man's faith. You can argue with Him if you want.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Bible does not say and I wasn't there.

Great! Does the Bible say that God has foreordained anything?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus laid out the conditions for salvation in Mark 16:15-16. Those conditions require man's faith. You can argue with Him if you want.

The difficulty is that Jesus said that His conditions were impossible to meet.

Luke 18:18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” 22 When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 23 But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. 24 And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” 27 But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”

 

[John Mullally]

The difficulty is that Jesus said that His conditions were impossible to meet.

Luke 18:18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” 22 When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 23 But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. 24 And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” 27 But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.

In Luke 18:18-27, Jesus was referring to the fact that It is impossible to be saved by trying to keep the Mosaic Law. The Jews that beleived in the after-life thought they could be saved by keeping the Mosaic Law.

The only thing Luke 18:18-27 and Mark 16:15-16 have in common is they speak of salvation. Only Mark 16:15-16 is about the Gospel, which Romans 1:16 says is "is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes". The power of God is not impotent.

The Gospel is God's idea, it is to be preached everywhere, and it is God's plan to save men. It is impossible to get saved outside of believing the Gospel.

I am not sure if that answers your question. It would be great if you were more specific in your questioning as it would make it easier for me to know what you are asking.

 

[John Mullally]

Who selected the animals for the ark? Did the animals make decisions not to enter the ark with only two of each unclean species deciding to enter the ark?

Great! Does the Bible say that God has foreordained anything?

Don't waste your time and my time by asking me to answer those kinds of questions.

 

[Hammster]

Like I said the payment requires belief on the part of the recipient. That means it is received conditionally. If you don't meet the conditions you don't receive forgiveness of sins.

When people say things I disagree with, I frequently make arguments against what they say. I don't purposely misrepresent what they say because I fear God. I hope you agree with me on that.

Regardless of whether it’s received conditionally, the fact is that, according to you, the sin was paid for. It’s atoned for. In my view, that means it’s no longer accounted to Ralph. He’s no longer on the hook for it. It’s been propitiated. Is it correct to believe that you have some different view?

 

[Hammster]

The use of "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew." in Romans 11:2 is past tense. Examples of "His people whom he foreknew" in verses that immediately follow reference OT saints Elijah and David. who had long ago left this planet. Elijah left in a flaming chariot - what a way to go!

It’s past tense because God knew beforehand. It’s not that He knew some in the past, and will know some in the future. That only flies in open theism.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Don't waste your time and my time by asking me to answer those kinds of questions.

I won't. Your mind is completely made up and there is no real possibility of dialogue with you (or myself, as I have my own firm beliefs).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Regardless of whether it’s received conditionally, the fact is that, according to you, the sin was paid for. It’s atoned for. In my view, that means it’s no longer accounted to Ralph. He’s no longer on the hook for it. It’s been propitiated. Is it correct to believe that you have some different view?

As you probably know by now, his view is synergistic. Yes, full propitiation has been made for each and every sin, but man is required to cooperate with God's grace in order to receive the propitiation. The underlying thought, of course, is that man's will is free and that he is capable of seeking God. Psalms 14 and 53 as well as their quotation by Paul in Romans 3 are highly problematic for individuals who subscribe to that theology.

 

[baptist4life]

Paul is speaking to a group of unsaved Athenians here.......

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent........ (Acts 17:30).

ALL MEN..........EVERYWHERE......


So, how is it that God commands people to do what you believe He has already made it impossible for them to do?"

 

[John Mullally]

Regardless of whether it’s received conditionally, the fact is that, according to you, the sin was paid for. It’s atoned for.

Received conditionally means exactly that. It is only accounted to Ralph once He believes the Gospel.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.​

​

In my view, that means it’s no longer accounted to Ralph. He’s no longer on the hook for it. It’s been propitiated.

Per Christ's view in Mark 16:15-16 and Paul's view in Romans 1:16, only those who believe will be saved. Ralph needs to believe to be saved.

The idea of a gift being received conditinally is accepted when setting up a trust or writing a will in the U.S.

My post #275 does an excellent job at explaining this. I am done talking about this.

 

[John Mullally]

It’s past tense because God knew beforehand. It’s not that He knew some in the past, and will know some in the future. That only flies in open theism.

Nothing about the use of "foreknew" in Romans 11:2 speaks of God knowing "some in the future".

This is taken from the following link: The Meaning Of proginōskō (“To Foreknow”), Thomas R. Edgar | Bible Exposition Commentary

In secular Greek, proginōskō meant to foreknow, to know beforehand. Scholars do not seriously dispute this definition. It does not refer to election, loving relationship, or predestination. Biblical interpreters have provided no extra-biblical examples with a meaning other than to know beforehand. The few examples in the apocryphal books of the Greek Old Testament agree. Those who infuse certain New Testament occurrences with a different meaning rely on different words as the basis for their interpretation.​

 

[Hammster]

As you probably know by now, his view is synergistic. Yes, full propitiation has been made for each and every sin, but man is required to cooperate with God's grace in order to receive the propitiation. The underlying thought, of course, is that man's will is free and that he is capable of seeking God. Psalms 14 and 53 as well as their quotation by Paul in Romans 3 are highly problematic for individuals who subscribe to that theology.

Yeah, and that makes propitiation something other than what it actually is.

 

[Hammster]

Paul is speaking to a group of unsaved Athenians here.......

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent........ (Acts 17:30).

ALL MEN..........EVERYWHERE......


So, how is it that God commands people to do what you believe He has already made it impossible for them to do?"

Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. Sound familiar?

 

[Hammster]

Received conditionally means exactly that. It is only accounted to Ralph once He believes the Gospel.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.​

​

Per Christ's view in Mark 16:15-16 and Paul's view in Romans 1:16, only those who believe will be saved. Ralph needs to believe to be saved.

My post #275 does an excellent job at explaining this. I am done talking about this.

You are still going to great lengths to avoid addressing the argument. As to avoid goading, I’ll let it go for now.

 

[Hammster]

Nothing about the use of "foreknew" in Romans 11:2 speaks of God knowing "some in the future".

This is taken from the following link: The Meaning Of proginōskō (“To Foreknow”), Thomas R. Edgar | Bible Exposition Commentary

In secular Greek, proginōskō meant to foreknow, to know beforehand. Scholars do not seriously dispute this definition. It does not refer to election, loving relationship, or predestination. Biblical interpreters have provided no extra-biblical examples with a meaning other than to know beforehand. The few examples in the apocryphal books of the Greek Old Testament agree. Those who infuse certain New Testament occurrences with a different meaning rely on different words as the basis for their interpretation.​

That doesn’t counter my argument.

 

[baptist4life]

Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. Sound familiar?

That didn't answer my question. Besides that verse doesn't say " God commands you to be perfect". Does it? So how do you explain God commanding people to repent, when He created them with no chance of doing so?

 

[John Mullally]

You are still going to great lengths to avoid addressing the argument. As to avoid goading, I’ll let it go for now.

You do not accept Christ's payment can be received conditionally. And that lines up with Calvinist thought because "Limited Atonement" insists that Christ only died for the elect, So in Calvinism, there is no need for the Christ's payment to be received conditionally - so why should you accept that.

However, 2 Peter 2:1, says that Christ paid for False Teachers who were on their way to Hell and I mentioned that to you much earlier on this thread. These False Teachers do not receive the atonement - which lines up with my argument that the atonement is received conditionally.

 

[Hammster]

That didn't answer my question. Besides that verse doesn't say " God commands you to be perfect". Does it? So how do you explain God commanding people to repent, when He created them with no chance of doing so?

The point was that God commands us to do things we are unable to fully do. That is basically every command given.

 

[Hammster]

You do not accept Christ's payment can be received conditionally. And that lines up with Calvinist thought because "Limited Atonement" insists that Christ only died for the elect, So in Calvinism, there is no need for the Christ's payment to be received conditionally - so why should you accept that.

However, 2 Peter 2:1, says that Christ paid for False Teachers who were on their way to Hell and I mentioned that to you much earlier on this thread.

I know that’s your position. But that didn’t address my hypothetical.