Is there anything a God could do that would make him evil?

[BigV]

Because Saint Isaac of Syria and the scourge of love never gets old:

I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna are scourged by the scourge of love. For what is so bitter and vehement as the punishment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have played the fool, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of Gehenna: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability. (I.28, p. 266)

That's an interesting take, but I don't get where God is supposed to be in all of this. He is a perfect love, supposedly, so is he suffering at all? According to Jesus, God loves the world, but majority choose the wide path that leads to destruction. So, is God just letting bygones be bygones?

 

[Tinker Grey]

And is eternal punishment unjust because it is non-rehabilitative, or is there another reason?

All of the above. What reason could there be for a punishment to go on for ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever?

Any punishment for whatever reason that lasts forever cannot be moral.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

The title of this thread
Is a very, very sad thing to see.
M-Bob

 

[Silmarien]

That's an interesting take, but I don't get where God is supposed to be in all of this. He is a perfect love, supposedly, so is he suffering at all? According to Jesus, God loves the world, but majority chose the wide path that leads to destruction. So, is God just letting bygones be bygones?

This is an interesting question, simply because of the synergy it has with Christian theology. The central claim of Christianity is that God is in fact engaged in a rescue operation that started with the Incarnation, and it's clear from the Crucifixion that this operation had to involve serious suffering on God's part as well. So no, none of this is letting bygones just be bygones. Quite the opposite.

 

[BigV]

The title of this thread
Is a very, very sad thing to see.
M-Bob

Why do you think this is sad? Is God using a double standard? Or can he too, be known by his fruit?

 

[zippy2006]

you need to define 'just'.

"Just."

Is a death penalty "just" for you if you have not killed anyone? Is eternal torture for you "just" if you have never tortured anyone, not even for a moment?

Er.. are you claiming that justice is defined by the the lex talionis in its most literal sense?

If it is just, then what action would make unjust?

I honestly don't know what you're asking here. Are you asking for an example of an unjust act?

 

[zippy2006]

And is eternal punishment unjust because it is non-rehabilitative, or is there another reason?

All of the above.

If eternal punishment is unjust because it is non-rehabilitative and because there is an additional reason, then what is the additional reason?

What reason could there be for a punishment to go on for ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever?

That's an argument from ignorance.

Any punishment for whatever reason that lasts forever cannot be moral.

Yes, you already said that when you affirmed #2 in this post.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Any punishment for whatever reason that lasts forever cannot be moral.

??
Whenever a potter fashions a stoneware cup, if the cup becomes cracked, he can throw it away, right ? Or if possible, if wanted, refashion it somehow or use it for another purpose as is..... either way, the potter's choice...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The title of this thread
Is a very, very sad thing to see.
M-Bob

" Is there anything a god could do that would make him evil? "

Yes. Most gods are evil.

If any of the idols or other gods people of the world serve could do anything, and even without doing anything, they are evil already. Right?

 

[cloudyday2]

1) I can't imagine this scenario.

After I mentioned this scenario I realized that this was exactly what the Father did to the Son according to the gospels. When Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane he asked the Father to spare him from the agonizing death by crucifixion. The Father refused apparently and the crucifixion of a sinless Jesus became the key to utopia for all Christians.

But getting back to the OP, the definition of a good or evil act changes with circumstances. If you are a king (such as God) then you are above the law. Your actions are too important to the welfare of all your subjects to be constrained by morals. For a king "good" actions are those that strengthen your kingdom. Conforming to laws or morals does not define good and evil for a king.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If God can torture people in Hell for eternity,

How do you mean "torture" there, I mean what exactly do you think is going to happen in hell?

 

[Moral Orel]

Meting out a just punishment is contrary to neither goodness or love.

What's good about justice for justice's sake?

 

[zippy2006]

What's good about justice for justice's sake?

Justice is good in itself, is it not? For example, to be a just man is to be virtuous, period. If someone is just only in order to gain some end then their justice is incomplete.

Here is St. Thomas on the question of eternal punishment:

Objection 4: Further, nothing accidental is infinite. But punishment is accidental, for it is not natural to the one who is punished. Therefore it cannot be of infinite duration.

Response: Although punishment is related indirectly to nature, nevertheless it is essentially related to the disturbance of the order, and to God's justice. Wherefore, so long as the disturbance lasts, the punishment endures.

Elaboration: As stated above (Article 1), sin incurs a debt of punishment through disturbing an order. But the effect remains so long as the cause remains. Wherefore so long as the disturbance of the order remains the debt of punishment must needs remain also. Now disturbance of an order is sometimes reparable, sometimes irreparable: because a defect which destroys the principle is irreparable, whereas if the principle be saved, defects can be repaired by virtue of that principle.​

 

[FireDragon76]

Meting out a just punishment is contrary to neither goodness or love.

What crime is so heinous that it would warrant everlasting punishment? And why would not agreeing with somebody's religion warrant the same?

 

[FireDragon76]

According to Christian apologists, there exists an absolute moral standard. So, judging by that standard, what could God do that would make him evil?

The Euthyphro Dilemma still stands, and I don't find Christian arguments to the contrary to be persuasive. I don't see why we should just assume that God is the absolute moral standard.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What crime is so heinous that it would warrant everlasting punishment? And why would not agreeing with somebody's religion warrant the same?

That depends entirely on the Judge. (not all the adjectives though - those may be human or lower in origin)

 

[FireDragon76]

That depends entirely on the Judge. (not all the adjectives though - those may be human or lower in origin)

No it doesn't. That would be arbitrary and unreasonable. If there are moral absolutes, then why would God's choice determine them? Does God determine them because they are good, or are they good because he merely wills it? Either way, it doesn't work the way you think it does. It's empty and hollow as far as an explanation of goodness and justice goes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Take all that up with the Judge..

 

[FireDragon76]

Take all that up with the Judge..

I don't respond to threats. Your god may threaten people with unreasonable punishments, but that's not a reason to believe in him or obey him.

People that generally threaten other people to motivate them are not people worthy of human devotion as they display poor character. That's true of humans or gods.

 

[FireDragon76]

To hear some tell it, they can't be happy in heaven unless they know someone else isn't experiencing it. My piece of cake is better if you can't have any.

Like Aquinas said, the just will rejoice in heaven over the fate of the damned. That's typical of the resentment inherent in much of the western Christian tradition, and Nietzsche was right to point out the envy and resentment that seeps through Christian discourse. Psychologically broken people find that kind of "justice" acceptable. Healthy people have more compassion than that and they tend to have a genuine amor fati.