Is there anything a God could do that would make him evil?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Since this is a discussion forum, lets say I agree with you. Lets rephrase the question into "what could be worse than torturing people for all eternity?" And for the crimes that they've committed while living for less than 120 years.

Since this is a discussion forum,
lets say that I don't agree with you. Let's say that God DOES NOT torture people for all eternity. Okay?
Let's say that all people are corrupt on earth, as in the days of Noah. (so only a few are righteous).
Let's say everyone on earth is doomed to be destroyed then, as in the days of Noah.

Let's say ANYONE who GETS ON THE ARK will be saved! Okay ? (as it did happen)

If someone does not get on the ARK, what happens to them? (Anyone and Everyone WHO GETS ON THE ARK is saved. )

 

[BigV]

Since this is a discussion forum,
lets say that I don't agree with you. Let's say that God DOES NOT torture people for all eternity. Okay?
Let's say that all people are corrupt on earth, as in the days of Noah. (so only a few are righteous).
Let's say everyone on earth is doomed to be destroyed then, as in the days of Noah.

Let's say ANYONE who GETS ON THE ARK will be saved! Okay ? (as it did happen)

If someone does not get on the ARK, what happens to them? (Anyone and Everyone WHO GETS ON THE ARK is saved. )

Why is there even a need to be saved? Remember, it is God who sends the rain and creates Hell fires. If it weren't for God's system, nobody would need this salvation.

God is like computer programmer who created a virus and now needs to clean his computer to make sure there is no damage to it, while realizing that most of the damage has already been done.

 

[cloudyday2]

Meting out punishment that is eternal and non-rehabilitative is neither good, nor just, nor loving.

There can be other purposes for punishment such as "making an example out you" as was the case for things like crucifixion, drawing and quartering, and all those types of things. It isn't simply about rehabilitating the criminal sometimes. Often punishment is about using terror to get the best performance from your citizenry.

 

[Tinker Grey]

There can be other purposes for punishment such as "making an example out you" as was the case for things like crucifixion, drawing and quartering, and all those types of things. It isn't simply about rehabilitating the criminal sometimes. Often punishment is about using terror to get the best performance from your citizenry.

I would argue that those uses for punishment are neither just nor moral (although, that may be redundant.)

Who could justify killing one of one's children so that the others will obey? (Well, apparently, gods can.)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why is there even a need to be saved? Remember, it is God who sends the rain and creates Hell fires. If it weren't for God's system, nobody would need this salvation.

< shrugs ? > Instead of being saved, don't be saved.

No one will force you.

 

[Sanoy]

I'm an annihilationist (not available for discussion here). I am open to Incidental ECT (eternal conscious torment) where it's a logical condition rather than a condition chosen by God. However voluntary ECT, where this condition is deliberately caused to occur when it could not have, makes no sense to me. It seems to me that the purpose of Justice is not to cause suffering but to rehabilitate, the only purpose voluntary ECT could serve is the causation of suffering for the satisfaction of the tormentor. IMO voluntary ECT is the most evil thing one could do. If the entire planet dedicated themselves to accomplishing the greatest acts of suffering in history for the entire life of the universe, they could never achieve a greater act of suffering than what will occur to a single person undergoing ECT. If God is a circle, this is a square IMO. I think the bulk of theology focuses on Incidental ECT which is not a hades like landscape. C.S. Lewis has some really good thoughts on this in "the great divorce", some of which IP includes here.

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'thy will be done.'" - C.S. Lewis

 

[cloudyday2]

I would argue that those uses for punishment are neither just nor moral (although, that may be redundant.)

Who could justify killing one of one's children so that the others will obey? (Well, apparently, gods can.)

If I can arbitrarily punish an innocent person to create a utopia for everybody else wouldn't that be my moral duty as the leader? Let's just say that is the only way to create utopia.

Some Christians think of hell this way. If God lets the rebellious rejecter's of Jesus into heaven then they will quickly turn it into something more like Las Vegas.

 

[Tinker Grey]

If I can arbitrarily punish an innocent person to create a utopia for everybody else wouldn't that be my moral duty as the leader? Let's just say that is the only way to create utopia.

1) I can't imagine this scenario. 2) What kind of utopia would it be if your leader might pick you as the next victim? 3) Suppose the process could be kept secret. What kind of process only works if kept secret? 4) Would it actually be the leader's moral duty to do this? If I were leader, I think I'd pick a "less than utopia" with no torture, than "utopia" with torture -- after all, I'd know and it would damage me and consequently, my subjects, even if only indirectly.

Some Christians think of hell this way. If God lets the rebellious rejecter's of Jesus into heaven then they will quickly turn it into something more like Las Vegas.

To hear some tell it, they can't be happy in heaven unless they know someone else isn't experiencing it. My piece of cake is better if you can't have any.

 

[BigV]

< shrugs ? > Instead of being saved, don't be saved.

No one will force you.

Well, isn't it strange? A loving being won't force me into a blissful afterlife, but will have no problems torturing me, against my will, for all eternity?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well, isn't it strange? A loving being won't force me into a blissful afterlife, but will have no problems torturing me, against my will, for all eternity?

oops.... missed again.... Keep trying or seek the truth finally ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

(no one has to suffer for eternity IF they ... well, change from what they start as...)

It is , however, popular, even very popular, NOT to change from what they start as...
so arm in arm, or 50 feet apart, they 'blissfully' head down the wide road...

to destruction... unless, again, they change direction... and get thru the narrow gate somehow ....

Their choice whether to seek , or not to seek.....

 

[BigV]

.. C.S. Lewis has some really good thoughts on this in "the great divorce", some of which IP includes here.

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'thy will be done.'" - C.S. Lewis

That quote by CS Lewis makes no sense for anyone not indoctrinated in Christianity. Imagine Zeus telling you that now it's your will that will be done. Would you know what Zeus means by that?

And why would anyone assume they are either fried for all eternity or killed on the spot and, somehow, it happens to be their will too?

Sounds like a setup, if you ask me. You are asked to chose a number between 1 and 2. And by choosing 2 you are choosing torment. Oh well, it's your will after all. Anything wrong with that picture?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Oh well, it's your will after all. Anything wrong with that picture?

Totally.
I think you have seen great injustice and false 'religion' enough to know it's not right and you don't want it, and there is no reason to ever want it, that's correct.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If I can arbitrarily punish an innocent person to create a utopia for everybody else wouldn't that be my moral duty as the leader? Let's just say that is the only way to create utopia.

Nothing is arbitrary in the Creator's Perfect Plan.

No one can redeem anyone else, only Jesus is Able, and Does, by His Own Blood (this is what it the difference between truth and all other religions) ....

Everyone who comes to Jesus, He Will in No Wise Cast Out. (so come - He Will Not Cast Anyone Out Who Comes To Him)

There is no other option for eternal life.

 

[BigV]

Totally.
I think you have seen great injustice and false 'religion' enough to know it's not right and you don't want it, and there is no reason to ever want it, that's correct.

The only religion I'm intimately familiar with is ... Christianity! But how right you are.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The only religion I'm intimately familiar with is ... Christianity! But how right you are.

What you described in previous posts was/is known as counterfeit Christianity. (OR perhaps, stumbling true believers)

Yes, you described it pretty well, for someone claiming not to believe?

 

[zippy2006]

Since this is a discussion forum, lets say I agree with you. Lets rephrase the question into "what could be worse than torturing people for all eternity?" And for the crimes that they've committed while living for less than 120 years.

What could be worse than that?

You first have to tell me what's wrong with it, and which Christians hold to such an idea.

 

[zippy2006]

All of the above.

And is eternal punishment unjust because it is non-rehabilitative, or is there another reason?

 

[Silmarien]

If God can torture people in Hell for eternity, and still be the epitome of goodness and love, what would make this God a moral monster?

Because Saint Isaac of Syria and the scourge of love never gets old:

I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna are scourged by the scourge of love. For what is so bitter and vehement as the punishment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have played the fool, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of Gehenna: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability. (I.28, p. 266)

 

[BigV]

You first have to tell me what's wrong with it, and which Christians hold to such an idea.

you need to define 'just'. Is a death penalty "just" for you if you have not killed anyone? Is eternal torture for you "just" if you have never tortured anyone, not even for a moment?

If it is just, then what action would make unjust?