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Featured Is there a gay demon or a demon for every sin?

Discussion in 'Christian Advice' started by ImAllLikeOkWaitWat, Feb 5, 2017.

  1. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    Isa_14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    And I don't listen to lectures from women because it is not scriptural.
     
  2. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    Not so. it was based on what you had admitted.
     
  3. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    Thankyou Solomons Porch. With this post, I seemed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit as I wrote. Not always the case, but this time, yes.
     
  4. JackRT

    JackRT OOPS!!! Supporter

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    A clear reference to an arrogant Babylonian king. So what is the point of your post?

    So you dismiss more than half the human race as having a voice not worth listening to?
     
  5. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Yes it is far-fetched. Though, the Bible does indicate that there are "spirits" associated with certain evil things: lying spirit: 1 Kings 22:19 - 22, evil spirit: 1 Sa. 16:14; familiar spirit: 2 Chron. 33:6, spirit of divination: Ac. 16:16, possessing/violent spirit: Ac. 19:15, 16, etc. Its a bit much, however, to posit a wicked spirit behind every temptation a person experiences. The apostle James offers an alternative explanation:

    James 1:13-15
    13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
    14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
    15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.


    The apostle Paul teaches that gross, perverted sin is also the result of pride, and ungratefulness and "worshiping and serving the creature rather than the Creator (Ro. 1:18-32)

    So, it is not biblical, I think, to believe that every sin we might commit has a demon behind it.

    The Bible gives us grounds to think the demonic can intrude evil thoughts and desires into us (Lu. 22: 3, 4). But such thoughts and feelings cannot compel a genuinely born-again believer to sin. They can, though, take root in a believer's mind not carefully guarding against such demonic additions and become strongholds of sin.

    Selah.
     
  6. CrystalDragon

    CrystalDragon Well-Known Member

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    THANK YOU, someone who listens to reason.
     
  7. CrystalDragon

    CrystalDragon Well-Known Member

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    I could prove to you, Scripturally and in a thorough manner, why Lucifer isn't Satan, just as JackRT mentioned.

    And wow, sexist much?
     
  8. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    A statement of the United Church of Canada.....

    • Recognizes that truth is embodied in the religious life of Hindu traditions around the world
    • Recognizes that God’s saving and liberating grace is at work in the religious life of Hinduism

    Jesus said I AM the way the truth and the life......
    Jesus said NO ONE comes to the father but by me.....

    Seems that the UCC does not pay much attention to what the scripture says so your comments are not at all surprising.
     
  9. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    Go right ahead and prove it. And God made the rules so you will have to take it up with him.
     
  10. CrystalDragon

    CrystalDragon Well-Known Member

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    I don't think God would say "women are inferior" if he loves everyone. But to the main point and putting your sexist remark aside...


    Isaiah 14:12-15 is the selection of verses that everyone has quoted as a whisper-down-the-lane thing who claim they know what it means because someone told them what it means. It's not about Satan AT ALL. If you actually read the surrounding verses and not just verses 12-15 that are quoted so much and so misinformed that I'm getting tired of having to explain it...

    1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

    2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

    3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

    4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

    5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

    6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

    7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

    8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

    9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

    11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

    17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

    18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

    19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

    20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.


    If you actually read the verses and not just regurgitate the oft-quoted ones, it's clear that it was all a proverb taken up against a Babylonian king ("Morning Star" was used by the way for anyone who had a high position, including Pharaoh and Jesus himself). The king was arrogant and saw him as being greater than everyone else, and mistreated his people, but he would soon be out of power and be seen as no more than the flawed arrogant human that he was.

    "Lucifer" is just a proverb-title given to a king of Babylon. Not Satan. Not a fallen angel. Not a rebellious spirit. Nothing supernatural. Nothing more or less than an arrogant king who saw himself as greater than anyone else.
     
  11. JackRT

    JackRT OOPS!!! Supporter

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    Yes, I would agree with that statement.

    The question here is whether those are the words of the historical person of Jesus or the words of the evangelist who never knew or met Jesus, writing decades later.

    I have never pretended to be a conventional Christian thinker. So be prepared to not be surprised at what I believe in future posts.
     
  12. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Ok, but I'll bite. So you don't believe St. John ever met Jesus?
     
  13. JackRT

    JackRT OOPS!!! Supporter

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    Very well said. When reading scripture context is all important and context is even more than scripture itself and includes history, culture, language and many other factors. When scripture is read with the blinkers that blind one to context then it is not surprising that misunderstandings that this can take place.
     
  14. JackRT

    JackRT OOPS!!! Supporter

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    That is correct. There were a number of Johns --- John the apostle, John the evangelist and John of Patmos. I will admit that I am not at all sure whether or not John the apostle and John the epistle writer are the same person.
     
  15. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Thank you for the reply. There is some question among some about one John especially around the book of Revelation ... but I've never met anyone who didn't believe the Gospel of John was written by St. John the Apostle.

    Just rather curious at your statement.
     
  16. ImAllLikeOkWaitWat

    ImAllLikeOkWaitWat For who can resist his will?

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    There are many times in the bible as in say hosea where God talks about someone in the current time then in the same verse its a prophecy. I forgot the name of this but you will all agree God does this. There is probably no good reason to believe hes merely talking about a babylonian king and not satan as well in that verse. Just because we know hes talking about a king doesn't mean hes not speaking about 2 things in one. That said I agree lucifer is not the name of an angel but i think theres at least some merit in thinking god is doing one of those 2 for one specials talking about 2 things in one time which is pretty powerful.

    Edit: I found what its called. Prophetic type God uses
    1. individual lives
    2. historical events
    3. inanimate objects
    to prophesize
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
  17. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    Satan – working through others
    The passage in Isaiah is directed to the ‘King of Babylon’ and the Ezekiel passage is addressed to the ‘King of Tyre’. But from the descriptions given, it is obvious that no human is addressed. The “I wills” in Isaiah describe a being who was cast to the earth in punishment for wanting to place his throne above the stars of God. The passage in Ezekiel addresses one who is an ‘angelic guardian’ who once moved in Eden and the ‘mountain of God’. This tendency of Satan (or Lucifer) to position himself behind or through someone else is consistent. In the Genesis fall he speaks through the serpent. In Isaiah he rules through the King of Babylon, and in Ezekiel he possesses the King of Tyre.
     
  18. JackRT

    JackRT OOPS!!! Supporter

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    John Dominic Crossan has provided a detailed classification of our sources for the historical Jesus according to the chronological stratification of the traditions. For a brief discussion of each source, including the reasons for its proposed dating, see John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus (HarperCollins, 1991) Appendix 1, pp. 427-50. All dates shown are C.E. (Common Era).


    First Stratum [30 to 60 C.E.]

    1. First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians (late 40s)

    2. Letter of Paul to the Galatians (winter of 52/53)

    3. First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (winter of 53/54.)

    4. Letter of Paul to the Romans (winter of 55/56)

    5. Gospel of Thomas I (earliest layer of Thomas, composed in 50s)

    6. Egerton Gospel (50s)

    7. P. Vienna G. 2325 (50s)

    8. P. Oxyrhynchus 1224 (50s)

    9. Gospel of the Hebrews (Egypt, 50s)

    10. Sayings Gospel Q (50s)

    11. Miracles Collection (50s)

    12. Apocalyptic Scenario (50s)

    13. Cross Gospel (50s)


    Second Stratum [60 to 80 C.E.]

    14. Gospel of the Egyptians (60s)

    15. Secret Gospel of Mark (early 70s)

    16. Gospel of Mark (late 70s)

    17. P. Oxyrhynchus 840 (?80s)

    18. Gospel of Thomas II (later layers, 70s)

    19. Dialogue Collection (70s)

    20. Signs Gospel, or Book of Signs (70s)

    21. Letter to the Colossians (70s)


    Third Stratum [80 to 120 C.E.]

    22. Gospel of Matthew (90)

    23. Gospel of Luke (90s)

    24. Revelation/Apocalypse of John (late 90s)

    25. First Letter of Clement (late 90s)

    26. Epistle of Barnabas (end first century)

    27. Didache (other than 1:3b2:1, 16:35) (end first century)

    28. Shepherd of Hermas (100)

    29. Letter of James (100)

    30. Gospel of John I (early second century)

    31. Letter of Ignatius, To the Ephesians (110)

    32. Letter of Ignatius, To the Magnesians (110)

    33. Letter of Ignatius, To the Trallians (110)

    34. Letter of Ignatius, To the Romans (110)

    35. Letter of Ignatius, To the Philadelphians (110)

    36. Letter of Ignatius, To the Smyrneans (110)

    37. Letter of Ignatius, To Polycarp (110)

    38. First Letter of Peter (112)

    39. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 1314 (115)

    40. First Letter of John (115)


    Fourth Stratum [120 to 150 C.E.]

    41. Gospel of John II (after 120)

    42. Acts of the Apostles (after 120)

    43. Apocryphon of James (before 150)

    44. First Letter to Timothy (after 120)

    45. Second Letter to Timothy (after 120)

    46. Letter to Titus (after 120)

    47. Second Letter of Peter (between 125 and 150)

    48. Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, 112 (140)

    49. Second Letter of Clement (150)

    50. Gospel of the Nazoreans (middle second century)

    51. Gospel of the Ebionites (middle second century)

    52. Didache, 1:3b2:1 (middle second century)

    53. Gospel of Peter (middle second century)[/quote]
     
  19. CrystalDragon

    CrystalDragon Well-Known Member

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    I'll quote a post from another thread because Herber Book List explains it well:

    You are reading into the account that which is not there (eisegesis). It does not mean that the King of Tyre was, literally, an angel. Ezekiel uses the imagery of an angel to describe the King's declared greatness, before his fall. Verses 12 - 13 in the Hebrew text are set as questions: 'Were you the Seal of Perfection? Were you full of wisdom and flawless in beauty? Were you in the Garden of Eden? Yes, you walked on the mountain among the fiery stones' (refers to David and Solomon). In short, the King was trying to out-G_d, G_d, by the way he saw himself as very much equal to, or even as being better than G_d, and the way he managed the affairs of State, and so these verses are meant to be sarcastic* as are the other parts of the text, before his fate is declared.

    *Some versions of the text, because of this sarcasm, are written as positive statements, not as questions, again, simply reflecting back to the King how conceited he was and, for that reason, it is put in direct contrast to the enormity of his downfall and punishment.[/QUOTE]
     
  20. Matthew B

    Matthew B Member

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    I don't know about that but I've been delivered from the temptation of being attracted to a male before so that is good! God is good and he won't let you deal with something too powerful for you to not be able to get out of. I will pray for people suffering with same sex attraction.
     
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