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Is there a break in Daniel's 70 weeks? (Daniel 9:26)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Houly, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. Yes

  2. No

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  1. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Then the point has to be the date of the decree you have 444 B C, the chart I posted has 457 BC.

    I've seen dates from 457 - 444....it's something we can't know with certainty. I certainly reject the decree of Cyrus though...it fulfills the end of the 70 year captivity...nothing more.
     
  2. Houly

    Houly Member

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    Yeah, 457 BC was Ezra 7, the 7th year of Artaxerxes. Nehemiah 2 was 13 years later. The chart you posted goes with Ezra.
     
  3. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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  4. Houly

    Houly Member

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    Every one of those links confirms what I said above.
    Ezra 7 was in 458/457 BC, and Nehemiah 2 was 13 years later, in 445/444 BC.

    The chart you posted goes with Ezra 7, but you're arguing in favor of Nehemiah 2 (I agree with you, not the chart). If you go with Nehemiah 2, the earliest date for the end of the 69th week is March 30, 32/33 AD, which is also our best (and usually latest) guess for the Crucifixion week. Therefore, there is another entire 'seven' some time after the Crucifixion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
  5. JLB777

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    17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations. 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 1:17-18


    ...and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.


    14 generations = 560 years. 14 X 40 = 560

    The time of Captivity is 70 years.

    2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Daniel 9:2

    560 - 70 = 490 years.

    490 years from when Cyrus announced the captivity was over and released the Children of Israel to go back to Jerusalem until the birth of Christ is 490 years.

    Cyrus had been anointed by God for the purpose of doing all of the lord's pleasure.

    Isaiah is prophesying directly to Cyrus from God!

    28 Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, And he shall perform all My pleasure, Saying to Jerusalem, "You shall be built," And to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid." ' 1 "Thus says the Lord to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held-- To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut: 2 'I will go before you And make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of bronze And cut the bars of iron. 3 I will give you the treasures of darkness And hidden riches of secret places, That you may know that I, the Lord, Who call you by your name, Am the God of Israel. 4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. 5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.' 8 "Rain down, you heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness; Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together. I, the Lord, have created it. Isaiah 44:28 - 45:8


    So we see Cyrus had been appointed by God to release the Children of Israel from captivity once the 70 years were concluded.

    as it is written -

    I have raised him up in righteousness, And I will direct all his ways; He shall build My city And let My exiles go free, Not for price nor reward," Says the Lord of hosts. Isaiah 45:13

    Cyrus was called by God and anointed for the purpose of releasing the Children of Israel from captivity.

    That his command would begin the prophecy of the Messiah the Prince.

    He was at that time the king of the world.

    He had supreme authority and only answered to God.

    From his command to release the children of Israel to the birth of Jesus Christ was 490 years. 70 weeks.

    We will see through God's word, how this process stopped and started again so that exactly 483 years, 69 weeks to the day, Jesus fulfilled the word of the Lord through Daniel.

    So that on that very day Jesus would say, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out."

    More to come.


    JLB
     
  6. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    That's right, they do. The point I make is they all point to both decrees of Artaxerses and conclude the decree in Nehemiah 2 can't fit the 70 weeks...but is that true? The decree in Ezra 7 is to give treasuries for the temple to furnish it.

    I return to the specifics of Daniel 9:26:
    25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

    Now...it's quite possible "restore and rebuild Jerusalem" may include the temple. At this point I don't think so. It never even mentions the temple.

    I will concede your point that Ezra 7 seems to fit "time wise" with the 70 weeks. However Danial 9:24 tells us what the 70 weeks cover and I'll break it down:
    24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
    *to finish the transgression,
    *to make an end of sin,
    *to make atonement for iniquity,
    *to bring in everlasting righteousness,
    *to seal up vision and prophecy
    *and to anoint the most holy place.


    We cannot deny those are fulfilled in Christ! So the 70 weeks are done. I see no gap.

    Very soon (September), I will be studying these passages through my reading program, and I'm going to focus on the 70 weeks.

    I know the various views...I also concede they all have their weaknesses...but the prevailing view that there's a gap in the 70 weeks is the the 70th week is coming, is the weakest. It's just not tenable as I see it.
     
  7. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    You can think that...but it's you that's guilty of holding to one passage. Isaiah 44:28 is only one portion of it and it gives no real detail. Isaiah is not the only prophet speaking to this.

    You have to look at all the prophesies about it...not just one.

    Furthermore the view you have is quite contrived...you can't even show a gap...that is quite man made doctrine.
     
  8. Houly

    Houly Member

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    Right, if you think the Crucifixion was in the middle of the 70th week (at the AofD), you have to go with Ezra 7 (457 BC) for the start of the first week. But I agree with what you posted about Nehemiah 2 (444 BC).

    The 69 weeks fit perfectly from March 5, 444 BC to March 30, 33 AD (considering a 'seven' = 2,520 days), leaving a final 70th week. I consider the 84 months in Revelation to be that final week, and since John uses "42 months" and "1,260 days" interchangeably, we know the full 84 months, and therefore the 'seven,' is in fact 2,520 days. So the question at that point is just: were the 84 months of Revelation fulfilled with the DofJ in 70 AD, or will they be the final 84 months before the return of Christ?
     
  9. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    It can't be.

    1. Daniel 9:26:
    26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

    The 69th week has gone by, the 70th week has started.

    2. Daniel 9:27:
    27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
    Jesus makes the firm covenant and stops sacrifice and grain offering by His crucifixion!!!

    That is where dispensationalism gets it real wrong! They say this is antichrist, and there is NO WAY. Christ ended sacrifice, HE IS THE ONLY ONE TO DO THAT. They make this about the Jews when this IS ABOUT CHRIST!!!
     
  10. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Okay how about this one -


    1 "Thus says the Lord to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held-- To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut: 2 'I will go before you And make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of bronze And cut the bars of iron... 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, And I will direct all his ways; He shall build My city And let My exiles go free, Not for price nor reward," Says the Lord of hosts.



    He shall build My city And let My exiles go free.


    JLB
     
  11. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I have not argued that Cyrus is not in the mix. My arument is that he starts the process.

    You asked me can I read once. So I ask you again can you read? Cyrus decree did not free the Jews to return. If that is true why Is Nehemiah still captive? He's working for King Artaxerxes when he asked permission to go to rebuild.

    So you see, the very point I make is what you ignore. God tells us HOW this came about...and you cannot deny more than one king involved in the process.

    Let's take a look:

    Ezra 1:1:
    Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying:

    Cyrus decree allow Judah to rebuild the temple...but the Jews are still captive. That ends the captivity of Judah.

    Ezra 6:1-4:
    Then King Darius issued a decree, and search was made in the archives, where the treasures were stored in Babylon.
    2 In Ecbatana in the fortress, which is in the province of Media, a scroll was found and there was written in it as follows: “Memorandum—
    3 In the first year of King Cyrus, Cyrus the king issued a decree: ‘Concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, let the temple, the place where sacrifices are offered, be rebuilt and let its foundations be retained, its height being 60 cubits and its width 60 cubits;
    4 with three layers of huge stones and one layer of timbers. And let the cost be paid from the royal treasury.


    Israel and Judah are still captive. Cyrus is dead! King Darius issues a decree to continue the work.

    Ezra 7:11-13
    11 Now this is the copy of the decree which King Artaxerxes gave to Ezra the priest, the scribe, learned in the words of the commandments of the Lord and His statutes to Israel:
    12 “Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace. And now
    13 I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.


    Darius is dead. Artaxerses issues a decree to allow the treasuries to go back into the temple as well as gifts from the people...but the Jews are still captive.

    Nehemiah 2:1-6:
    And it came about in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes, that wine was before him, and I took up the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had not been sad in his presence.
    2 So the king said to me, “Why is your face sad though you are not sick? This is nothing but sadness of heart.” Then I was very much afraid.
    3 I said to the king, “Let the king live forever. Why should my face not be sad when the city, the place of my fathers’ tombs, lies desolate and its gates have been consumed by fire?”
    4 Then the king said to me, “What would you request?” So I prayed to the God of heaven.
    5 I said to the king, “If it please the king, and if your servant has found favor before you, send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers’ tombs, that I may rebuild it.”
    6 Then the king said to me, the queen sitting beside him, “How long will your journey be, and when will you return?” So it pleased the king to send me, and I gave him a definite time.


    King Artaxerxes issues another decree allowing Nehemiah to go rebuild the city.

    So now...let's answer you point as to why God said Cyrus. Cyrus starts the process and since he is king every king after him carries out this decree, and even adds more to it. That is why God says Cyrus.

    It is actually Artaxerses who give the decree freeing the exiles. Read Nehemiah 7 where they do the first census of the exiles.

    You cannot just read one passage JLB, you have to put the whole thing together.
     
  12. Houly

    Houly Member

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    After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. (Daniel 9:26)

    Christians did not "destroy the city and the sanctuary."

    This is how I see it: Jesus Christ is crucified at the end of the 69th week. Then we wait for the "ruler to come," who will bring the 70th 'seven.' Daniel gives an outline, but John describes the 84 months (2,520 days) in detail in Revelation. So at this point, a very valid preterist argument is that Nero (666) was the "ruler to come," who did destroy the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD.

    That preterist argument alone is solid. But I don't accept it because of several details in Revelation that were not fulfilled by the DofJ in the first century: a third of mankind killed, Satan locked up in the Abyss for a thousand years, etc. But it makes the point that the "ruler to come" after Daniel 9:26 is the Antichrist (beast, man of lawlessness), and even in preterism there is a gap after the Crucifixion until that ruler comes. The 70th week is not immediately after the 69th.
     
  13. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    The verse doesent say "the people" are Christians. It says "the people of the prince who is to come" the prince was Titus, the son of Emperor Vespasian...so he was a prince at the time, and led the charge to destroy the temple.
    No...Nero was dead when the sanctuary was destroyed, he commited suicide.
    Revelation is focusing on the known world at that time. Not today. Rome was in full control of that region as Vespasian pulled the Empire back together.

    All of preterism (whether partial or full), doesn't concede to a gap. I could be called a partial preterist and I don't hold to a gap at all. My position is the 70 weeks ends at the stroning of Stephen. I also hold the anointing of Jesus at His baptism begins the 70th week.

    These are the issues where the line draws.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
  14. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    to seal up vision and prophecy


    How are "Prophets" a

    New Testament office

    if "prophecy" is sealed up and over with ?

    Did John have visions and prophecies in the Book of Revelation and was told "don't seal it up"?

    This hasn't come to pass yet -

    a "sealing up of vision and prophecy"

    Don Pardo voice:

    "No...

    Sorry."
     
  15. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As far as the ANOINTING _ the preponderance of translations sees that as a PLACE not as a MESSIAH

    see above where I gave a billion versions that said anoint a place

    and the KJV that said anoint the Most Holy

    was the only version CLOSE That you could have said was anointing a Messiah

    Partial Preterists who say "70 ad temple destruction ends everything" DO have a gap of "just under a generation" at least THOSE partial preterists acknowledge a gap

    what ceased as far as Temple sacrifices after Stephen's stoning?

    Things at the Temple went on and on after Stephen was stoned - continued til 70 AD when Temple was cratered.

    Apostle Paul later went and took part in a ceremony at the Temple WAY after Stephen's stoning - doncha remember? shaved his head and everthang?

    good God, ebed, YOU are the one that needs a rope let down to pull you outta the mud regarding this Stephen Stoning incident
     
  16. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "to seal up the vision and prophecy"

    How about the prophet Agabus in the New Testament - in Acts - after Stephen's stoning, no?

    How about Philip the evangelists' four virgin daughters who PROPHESIED _ way after Stephen's Stoning - prophecy was not "sealed up and over with"

    and no sacrifices and oblations ever ceased because of Stephen being stoned

    better flip that puppy over and look at the other side
     
  17. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Actually no I don't. The stoning of Stephen marks the point at which the gospel leaves Jerusalem and goes into Judea and Samaria. As Acts 8 points out.

    Also pay particular attention to Stephen's sermon before his stoning...you might learn something. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
  18. Interplanner

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    re "to seal up"
    I think you will find that there is a discussion here at CF about the sense of 'to seal up' in Dan 9. To summarize: when the meaning was to 'hide, conceal' it was explained that that was being done in other places in Daniel. However, in 9, in the list of 7 things accomplished by Messiah (which are concentric), it has the positive sense of being validated, fulfilled, realized. You might say 'to set a seal of approval' on. Notice that the things that are accomplished by him are concentric; all of them happen in the Gospel event.
     
  19. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am not trying to compare "seal up vision and prophecy" in chapter nine with the sealing of the book in ch 12.

    I was pointing out that - imo - no such "sealing up" of vision and prophecy had occurred by the time of Stephen's stoning - and SURELY no "sacrifices and oblations had ceased" in the Jerusalem Temple.

    Therefore a SEVENTIETH WEEK in which at the middle of such week there would be a CEASING of the sacrifices had certainly not occurred by the time of the stoning of Stephen.

    A view that the Temple destruction in 70 AD was the middle of a seventieth week is at least PLAUSIBLE - I don't believe it - but it's at least in the ball park, whereas a 70th week that ends with Stephen's stoning is not plausible because in no sense can it be said that "sacrifices and oblations" can be said to be over with in the Temple.

    Years later Paul shaves his head and takes a vow -- prophecy is not really sealed up in the sense of finalized and over with because New Testament Prophecy is still going on, John has Revelation yet to write, and for that matter Old Testament prophecy is still being understood, i.e. James quoting from Amos at the first council in Jerusalem when they are trying to decide what to do about Gentile converts.

    The picture of Stephen being stoned to death while Saul of Tarsus holds people's coats so they can throw rocks --

    that is NOT my idea of

    "bringing in everlasting righteousness" -- one of the objectives of the 70 weeks as a whole.

    That "bringing in" hasn't happened yet -- and there is still some PROPHESYING to come from the Two Witnesses.

    Christ has EARNED everlasting righteousness, but we do not yet see all things under His feet.

    We're IN THE GAP - 70th week has not occurred yet.
     
  20. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    It's really somewhat mind bogging to read Hebrews and not see the 70th week is fulfilled in Christ.

    I mean...just read chapter 1...:thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
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