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Is there a break in Daniel's 70 weeks? (Daniel 9:26)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Houly, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. Yes

  2. No

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Well read it. Verse 24 tells you it applies to the Jews:
    24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

    Christ did all of that!
    The middle of the week is the 3.5 year ministry of Christ. The stoning of Stephen moves the gospel from Jerusalem as he addresses the high preist in Act 7. Stephen doesn't rehearse the history of Israel for nothing...and he sums them up in Acts 7:51-53.
    If you think so. But it's interesting again that Daniel 9:24 clearly says what the 70 weeks cover...and the temple isn't even mentioned.
    That's because Jesus sealed the prophecy...every bit of it.
    Again...if you think so. However again you simply need to understand everlasting righteousness is in Christ. Let Romans 3:21-26 tells you that:
    21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
    25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
    26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


    If you don't believe that...let 2 Peter 1:1 tell you how righteousness comes:
    Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

    You get it? Everlasting righteousness in in Jesus...:thumbsup: :amen: :clap:
     
  2. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "The middle of the week is the 3.5 year ministry of Christ."

    Sigh.

    Ebed - do you realize what you are saying?

    You are PUTTING THE ENTIRE MINISTRY OF CHRIST

    into a period

    AFTER WHICH

    Daniel said Messiah was already cut off - the prophecy clearly states that

    AFTER THE 69th week Messiah is cut off and has nothing.

    To try to say that "well, 3 1/2 years AFTER the 69th week is still AFTER the 69th week"

    is just fallacious --

    it is like saying "The Rangers took Yu Darvish out after the 4th inning and put in another pitcher"

    and then trying to say that what that MEANT

    was that Darvish didn't really leave the game til the middle of the 8th inning -

    that he pitched 3 1/2 more innings "after the 4th inning" when his pitching was

    CUT OFF --

    I mean it doesn't even make any sense what you are saying about Jesus' entire 3/12 year ministry

    You want to put the whole ministry AFTER a point where Daniel says plainly that Messiah was CUT OFF

    You want to start the Messiah's ministry AFTER A POINT where Daniel says it was already OVER
     
  3. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    The prince who is to come, is future to the event of destroy the city and sanctuary.

    That is why he is called the prince who is to come.

    He will be someone who is declared to be future of that event, which excludes Titus who is of the "people" who destroyed the city and sanctuary.


    JLB
     
  4. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    You can think that if you want but there are things you cannot avoid:

    *At the point of this prophecy, there was no temple.

    *The decree of Cyrus rebuilds the temple which was remoldeled as Herod's temple.

    *Herod's temple is destroyed in 70 AD. Yet the prophecy doesn't speak to a third temple...nor does Jesus nor any of the apostles. It's on you to show why the sanctuary destroyed in this prophecy is not Herod's temple.

    More dispensational scripture acrobatics...:thumbsup:
     
  5. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Read Daniel 9:24...then show me one thing in that verse that Christ didn't do.

    Moreover, the one point people make mistakes with Daniel 9:24 is that it is specific to the Jews because the Old Covenant is still in force. “Seventy weeks have been decreed for YOUR PEOPLE"...that's the Jews.

    Jesus accomplished Daniel 9:24! He did it all...so the seventy weeks are over! I'm waiting...:thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Hi eb, yes, Daniel's people were the Jews, but that particular chapter says this...

    Daniel9:
    20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;

    The major thing that hasn't been done is to bring all Israel to Christ. That's what the 70th week is for.
    Which in Isaiah 66, that particular nation of Israel born in a single day will deliver her children.

    Jesus told the pharisees that the kingdom (of God) was taken from them, a unbelieving nation and given to another nation bearing the fruit of the kingdom. They could have had the kingdom of God here on earth. He was not talking about a foreign nation, but to a different generation of Israel. The Jews in Israel at the present time will become Christians from the middle of the 7 years, testifying of him, and welcoming him at His Return blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.


    Doug
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  7. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    No Doug. You're taking a prayer of Daniel and adding it to the prophecy. Daniel is praying for the return of the Jews to the land based on reading Jeremiah. That's in verses 1-3. To take that and now want to make that an issue is very poor exegesis because Daniel is praying about the return after 70 years of captivity. So no you're imposing on Daniel's prayer!
    Again no. Gabriel brought Daniel an answer to his prayer. It's explained in 9:24-27.
    No sir you miss Jesus' point completely, The kingdom Jesus refers to is HIS OWN! That kingdom is the Israel of God.

    You dispensationalist really completely miss the point! Paul begins in Romans 2:28, 29 to tell you who is "true Israel", which is all of God's people who come to Christ. That's why Paul said in Romans 2:28, 29:
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


    God help you to see that. He is NOT a respecter of persons. God is choosing out a "people for his name" and that is ALL those who are of "THE FAITH" of Abraham. Jews and Gentiles!

    That's why we saints are A HOLY NATION AND A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD! :thumbsup: :amen: :clap:
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  8. Houly

    Houly Member

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    Ebed, the people of Jesus Christ never destroyed the city and the sanctuary, so we know the "ruler/prince to come" is a different person. Edit: we agree on that.

    The "he" in 9:27 both confirms a covenant for the final 'seven' and sets up the abomination that causes desolation.

    And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation. (Daniel 9:27)
    ^ When did Jesus do this?
     
  9. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    I realize that many read this passage differently. I think this link best gives my viewpoint of the passage:
    White Horse Media - Articles >> Tribulation Talks >> The 70th Week of Daniel Delusion
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    eb, they were not in captivity because God had made a covenant with Judah. They were in captivity because they and the other tribes had broken the covenant the God made with Israel on Mt. Sinai. Daniel says "my people" Israel right in the text. And when Gabriel delivers God's response to Daniel's prayer, the 70 weeks are delivered on your (Daniel's) people (Israel) and Jerusalem

    The 70 weeks are determined on Israel and Jerusalem.

    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    The seventy weeks are upon all the people of Israel.

    "Israel of God" is not something spoken of by Jesus. He spoke of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. You are being creative in your terminology.
    I am not a dispensatonalist. I have said this before to you many times, but I don't expect you to remember everything.

    Of the Jews, being of the flesh, does not mean that he is a Jew unless his heart s right..

    God is not the One who has the problem here. I don't know why you are so against the Jews, the nation of Israel being blessed and receiving Jesus as their messiah, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

    Israel is a nation again over there only by Divine Providence. Can't you see that given the odds against it?

    Doug
     
  11. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Doug, where are you getting this from? Israel was exiled way before Judah. Read 2 Kings 17. That's where Israel is exiled. Judah remains in the land. There's over 100 years between the exile of Israel and the captivity of Judah!
    What are you talking about...:confused:

    That's right...because they "finish transgression" by crucifying the Lord.

    No. Paul is being creative as the Holy Spirit reveals it to him. Jesus said it another way he called Jews and Gentiles sheep...that would be John 10;14-16:
    14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
    15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
    16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

    Same thing Paul is saying, except it's sheep. Jews and Gentiles are ONE flock.
    You're pretty close. But my apology...you're definitely a futurist.
    Read all of it...the circumcision is OF THE HEART, BY THE SPIRIT...that is being born again!

    How am I against the Jews and say Jews and Gentiles are ONE in Christ...:confused: I say what the scripture says, so I have no clue what you're talking about.
     
  12. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    re finish transgressions
    All of these 7 accomplishments of Messiah in Dan 9 are meant in a positive, and objective, sense. It is not the end of evil, forever, in the world. It is the dealing with sin as debt in the Gospel of Christ. Therefore Hebrews speaks of an end of sin, or of taking away sin, or of being made holy (ch 10) and it all of them are about the debt, not the recurrence.

    You're missing the theological background, specifically that sin is both debt and dirt, but has the upper hand when people do not think the debt is cancelled. this is why the Gospel of the cancellation or remission of the debt is so overwhelmingly powerful--may I say--millenial. The news that it is canceled does not make people go sin, it impresses on them that 'God's kindness leads to repentance.'

    It is extremely important not to read the OT in itself. It must be interp'd by the NT. The Reformation went even more specific and said:
    the gospel accounts should be interp'd by the letters
    scattered references " " " " systematic
    symbolic references... ordinary
     
  13. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    good site...has me thinking.

    your point of view was brought up to me while go,
    and I thot it had merit back then
    but I was still not convinced.
    however, from that point
    I started to stay out of arguing Daniel 9:24-27 as a future to us event
    I think the link u gave is correct for the most part.

    but i'm still a futurist,
    and while the 70th week may have come and gone
    that does not rule out futurism

    not all futurists are pre trib and or dispensationalists.
     
  14. Houly

    Houly Member

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    Yeah, the alternate translation for 9:27 on that site does sound like Christ: "For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." I had always seen it: "And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation."

    But that author dismisses the idea of a 7-year tribulation just by arguing against an interpretation of Daniel 9: "Shockingly, there is no specific Bible text predicting any seven-year tribulation. The entire theory is based on an interpretation of one primary verse, Daniel 9:27."

    He missed the entire book of Revelation. That's the detailed 7-year (84-month or 2,520-day) "great tribulation." The usual debate about the 7-year tribulation of Revelation is whether it was fulfilled in 70 AD or still future. Daniel 9:27 is often used to support either argument, and either way there's a gap between weeks 69 and 70. With the alternate translation for Daniel 9:27, I could see the 70th week being fulfilled in Christ; that would mean it's different from the "great tribulation."
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  15. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    That's right.

    Regarding Daniel 9:27, back in Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be the fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

    This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years, he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he's (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

    In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

    ~

    Also, it should be pointed out that even in preterism, there was a gap of decades between the first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a and the first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b. For first century AD Jerusalem wasn't destroyed until 70 AD, some decades after the Crucifixion. Also, there will be a gap of about 7 years between the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a and the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b. For the current Jerusalem won't be destroyed until right before and at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21), about 7 years after the Antichrist "cuts" a 7-year treaty (Daniel 9:26a,27a) with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) who will be ruling Jerusalem.

    _

    In the first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by Roman Empire soldiers from nations throughout the Roman Empire (which included the territory of modern-day Lebanon). These soldiers were "the people" in Daniel 9:26, their "prince" being Titus. In the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, Jerusalem will be destroyed by all nations of the earth, which will all be under the Antichrist's rule by that time (Revelation 13:7b), when they gather against Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21).

    And just as "the city" in Daniel 9:26 is Jerusalem, so "the sanctuary" is the Jewish temple building in Jerusalem. In the first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, the 2nd Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 AD by Roman Empire soldiers. In the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, a future, 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4) will be destroyed along with the rest of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:2, Luke 19:44), when Jerusalem is pillaged by all nations of the earth right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21).
     
  16. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    folks like to argue the amount of time seen in Rev
    but imo it is only one set of 1260 days or 42 months, spoken of multiple times, not two seperate sets

    im still debating whether the final half the Daniel 70th week
    was fulfilled with Steven's death and Paul's gentile commission beginning
    or if it is still future to us, ending with God's final vengeance

    but even if I find t to be historical, that STILL does not rule out futurism ;)
     
  17. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I am very interested to see that two-thirds of the participants in this sub-forum view the end times dispensationally, but about three-fourth of the posts are anti-dispensational.
     
  18. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Because it's not about the popularity of a view...it's about the truth of scripture Biblewriter. I've said this before and I'll say it again...

    When Jesus hit the scene not many disagreed with the Pharisees and Sadducees either. How did that go?

    When it comes to eschatological views dispensationlism has missed the boat almost entirely.

    Having been taught the dispensational view early in my Christian life (mid 80's), I can remember the very questions I had about it, until I finally decided not to hold any view until I had studied the scriptures.

    I''m not "anti" anything, I'm for the truth of scripture. Dispensational eschatology is a true jigsaw puzzle.
     
  19. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    Well Zeke, there is the future coming of Christ for sure. The view that doesn't hold to that is "full preterism"...I think that really misses the boat because they hold that all is fulfilled. I don't ascribe to that at all.

    Jesus will return!!!

    Lastly there are many to want to say the early church ascribed to a pre-tribulational raoture..and that is just disingenuous.
     
  20. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "I am very interested to see that two-thirds of the participants in this sub-forum view the end times dispensationally, but about three-fourth of the posts are anti-dispensational. "

    It's the INTENSITY of the hatred of Futurism, Biblewriter - the maniacal DOUBLETHINK of the anti-dispies who can see BOTH Margaret Macdonald and the Jesuits Ribera and De La Cunza as the "evil origins" of Dispensationalism - the crazed notions that Futurists have never read the Bible but have swallowed unthinkingly the rhetoric of the Left Behind fiction novels...

    well, it is as you say concerning the result of the polls

    watermelon watermelon watermelon rind
    look on the scoreboard and see who's behind

    IT is a good point by Bible2 that "cut off" can mean both being killed or cutting a covenant on Messiah's point -- but it is all the same Point in time - Messiah's death - he did not bring in a new covenant by turning water into wine at the beginning of his ministry, but by shedding His blood at the end of it

    as for READING THE BIBLE -- no one has seriously looked at the Anointing in verse 24 being of a place - the Holy of Holies; and yes, that is something of the 70 weeks purpose that Jesus did not do - He did not anoint Himself, which is not what is being spoken of, He did not anoint a holy of holies -- look at the words -- holy of holies -- look at it in the Greek Septuagint -- look at the two Hebrew same words side by side - look at Young's literal transalation - look at Darby's - look at the preponderance of versions where Most Holy PLACE is number one translation and "holy 'one' " is a long shot

    "to anoint the Most Holy" in the KJV and NKJV is the ONLY translation that even leaves a chinaman's chance at saying this is the anointing of the Messiah - and that is by mistranslating and leaving off the end of "hagion hagione" as Septuagint has it

    uh

    yeah

    eight to four

    what inning is it?
     
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