Is there a break in Daniel's 70 weeks? (Daniel 9:26)

[JLB777]

Cyrus decree was given about 539 BC. Artaxerses decree was given about 457 BC.

Artaxerxes referred to The Decree of Cyrus to restart the process after the first gap.

It wasn't until a search was made and the scroll with the decree from Cyrus was found, that He CONFIRMED WHAT CYRUS HAD DECREED!


CASE CLOSED!


JLB

 

[ebedmelech]

Artaxerxes referred to The Decree of Cyrus to restart the process after the first gap.

It wasn't until a search was made and the scroll with the decree from Cyrus was found, that He CONFIRMED WHAT CYRUS HAD DECREED!


CASE CLOSED!


JLB

No...it's easy to see you refuse to acknowledge the two decrees are two specific things.

So once more...how hard is it to understand...Daniel 9:25:?
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

I used to follow dispensationalism...I KNOW they refuse to deal with that.

 

[Houly]

Ebed, you say Nehemiah 2, but then you say 457 BC.

Nehemiah 2 was in 444 BC, the 20th year of Artaxerxes.
You might be thinking of Ezra 7, which was 457 BC, the 7th year of Artaxerxes.

The decree to rebuild JERUSALEM was given by Artaxerxes, That would be Nehemiah 2.

Artaxerses decree was given about 457 BC.

 

[ebedmelech]

Ebed, you say Nehemiah 2, but then you say 457 BC.

Nehemiah 2 was in 444 BC, the 20th year of Artaxerxes.
You might be thinking of Ezra 7, which was 457 BC, the 7th year of Artaxerxes.

Yep...you're correct...my mistake. Nehemiah 2 is him wanting to go down to Jerusalem to help rebuild the walls.

 

[Houly]

Edit: alright, you go with Ezra 7, so you place the birth of Jesus around 5 BC and the Crucifixion in 30 AD.

 

[ebedmelech]

Edit: alright, you go with Ezra 7, so you place the birth of Jesus around 5 BC and the Crucifixion in 30 AD.

I have to admit I'm not real sure when trying to nail it down. This is something I'm working on slowly.

In my daily reading I'm now in this area but reading Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and 2 Kimgs at this time (it's chronological reading). Nebuchadnezzar is about to take Jerusalem.

I'm going to wait until I get into Daniel (around Sept) and I'll look a lot closer.

At this point here's a chart that I think is close to what I think:

That's about how I see it.

 

[JLB777]

No...it's easy to see you refuse to acknowledge the two decrees are two specific things.

So once more...how hard is it to understand...Daniel 9:25:?
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

I used to follow dispensationalism...I KNOW they refuse to deal with that.

Can you read?

Can you read?

What don't you understand about this clear and plain word of God?

28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd , and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built ; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid . Isaiah 44:28


What part of Jerusalem shall be built do you not understand!

Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built

Jerusalem, the city!

Cyrus was responsible to restore Jerusalem.

All of Jerusalem which includes the Temple and the city, as the word of the Lord shows us in Isaiah 44:28.


JLB

 

[Douggg]

I have to admit I'm not real sure when trying to nail it down. This is something I'm working on slowly.

In my daily reading I'm now in this area but reading Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and 2 Kimgs at this time (it's chronological reading). Nebuchadnezzar is about to take Jerusalem.

I'm going to wait until I get into Daniel (around Sept) and I'll look a lot closer.

At this point here's a chart that I think is close to what I think:

That's about how I see it.

Hi eb, I appreciate the chart as a communication tool. That's what I like to see. I don't agree with the ending of the 62 weeks being the anointing - but the cutting off, crucified.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem that final passover week hailed as their king messiah, by his followers. Four days later he was crucified. That would be at the end of the 62 weeks not in the middle of the 70th week.

Regarding the countdown of the weeks from the time the command is given, I personally have come to the conclusion that there have been discrepancies built into the calendars over the course of history, such that the dates are not that reliable - to prove our points, what ever point we may take. I have talked to the Jews (countermissionaries) who admit that their calendar has a 160 years discrepanacy. I think the Catholics also doctored the calendar, the one that most of us use. Back at the time of Jesus, their calendar would have been more accurate, thus they should have known the time of their visitation.

What we have for certain is that Jesus was cutoff crucified. What we have to conclude is that at the end of the 69 weeks or the 69.5 weeks.

Doug

 

[JLB777]

Hi eb, I appreciate the chart as a communication tool. That's what I like to see. I don't agree with the ending of the 62 weeks being the anointing - but the cutting off, crucified.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem that final passover week hailed as their king messiah, by his followers. Four days later he was crucified. That would be at the end of the 62 weeks not in the middle of the 70th week.

Regarding the countdown of the weeks from the time the command is given, I personally have come to the conclusion that there have been discrepancies built into the calendars over the course of history, such that the dates are not that reliable - to prove our points, what ever point we may take. I have talked to the Jews (countermissionaries) who admit that their calendar has a 160 years discrepanacy. I think the Catholics also doctored the calendar, the one that most of us use. Back at the time of Jesus, their calendar would have been more accurate, thus they should have known the time of their visitation.

What we have for certain is that Jesus was cutoff crucified. What we have to conclude is that at the end of the 69 weeks or the 69.5 weeks.

Doug

Hi Doug,

I ask you to consider this reference from the scripture that does not name a "date" or a king, but on takes the time of captivity and the time span into account. I will also post the meaning of Messiah the prince in a separate post.


[FONT=&quot]17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations. Matthew 1:17

A Generation is 40 years.

Babylonian Captivity to Christ = 14 generations = 560 years

Time of Captivity = 70 years : [The going forth of the command]

560 -70 = 490 years -

Gap between 7 weeks and 62 weeks = 40 years = 1 Generation [ From one king to the next]

23 Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. 24 Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia. Ezra 4:23-24

33 = Birth to “Palm Sunday”

Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, Luke 3:23

490 - 40 = 450 years + 33 years “Birth” to Messiah the Prince 483 years = 69 weeks

[Messiah the Prince; Hosanna to the son of David]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]You have to start with the entire time of Captivity.

The entire 14 Generations is 560 years.

The time of captivity is 70 years.

To arrive at the time of the going forth of the command we deduct the time of captivity. 70 years.

Now we have 490 years.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The non stop progressive time from the going forth of the going forth of the command to the birth of Christ. 490 years

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That’s 70 weeks.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

We are looking for 69 weeks.

69 weeks to Messiah the Prince.

[/FONT]490 - 40 = 450 years + 33 years “Birth” to Messiah the Prince
​

483 years = 69 weeks​

​

JLB

 

[JLB777]

[FONT=&quot]Messiah the Prince[/FONT][FONT=&quot] refers to the Messianic proclamation of the people when Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem, where they cried out Hosanna to the son of David, and laid palm branches down before Him.

This event is celebrated even to this day as "Palm Sunday".

Hosanna is a Messianic term from psalms 118 that means "save now"!

The priest's were angry with the people and asked Jesus to stop them because this was a reference to be made to YHWH.

9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: "Hosanna to the Son of David! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' Hosanna in the highest!" 10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, "Who is this?" 11 So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee." [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Matthew 21:9-11

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] Jesus said if these people don't praise me the stones will cry out.

This was the prophecy from Daniel being fulfilled and nothing in heaven or on earth was going to stop it from coming to pass!

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Psalm 118:21-26[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]
21 I will praise You, For You have answered me, And have become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 23 This was the Lord's doing; It is marvelous in our eyes. 24 This is the day the Lord has made; We will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I pray, O Lord; O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

This event marked the end of the 69th week!

Five days later,after the 69th week, Messiah was "cut off" on Passover.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; Daniel 9:26


JLB

[/FONT]

 

[Interplanner]

Many of the OT prophecies are "flattened" when seen from the OT. Joel 2 is another example. From there, you can't see any 'space' between events. The last week is unusual in that an appeal is made to Israel to pull back from a catastrophic brink, which by nature unfolds irregularly. But yes, the final week does take place in that same generation which was appealed to.

 

[ebedmelech]

Edit: alright, you go with Ezra 7, so you place the birth of Jesus around 5 BC and the Crucifixion in 30 AD.

Hourly, I went back and examined this carefully. Ezra 7 is about the furnishing of the temple. The returning of the treasuries to the temple. I must hold that Nehemiah 2 is the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Let's look at Nehemiah's complaint to King Artaxerxes...Nehemiah 2:3:
3 I said to the king “Let the king live forever. Why should my face not be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers’ tombs, lies desolate and its gates have been consumed by fire?”

Nehemiah's compliant is about THE CITY!!! The temple has been rebuilt but the city has not. King Artaxerses then gives Nehemiah a decree to return for the rebuilding of the city in Nehemiah 2:6-8
6 Then the king said to me, the queen sitting beside him, “How long will your journey be, and when will you return?” So it pleased the king to send me, and I gave him a definite time.
7 And I said to the king, “If it please the king, let letters be given me for the governors of the provinces beyond the River, that they may allow me to pass through until I come to Judah,
8 and a letter to Asaph the keeper of the king’s forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the fortress which is by the temple, for the wall of the city and for the house to which I will go.” And the king granted them to me because the good hand of my God was on me.

This is where King Artaxerses decrees the rebuilding of the city...that's why Ezra and Nehemiah are separate books. Ezra is the rebuild of the temple. Nehemiah is the rebuilding of the city!!!

So I return to my original position...Nehemiah 2 is the rebuilding of the city.

 

[Houly]

So I return to my original position...Nehemiah 2 is the rebuilding of the city.

Then I still agree with you, I think the first week started with Nehemiah 2 on March 5, 444 BC, the 20th year of Artaxerxes. If you consider a 'seven' to be 2,520 days, the first 69 'sevens' end on March 30, 33 AD, when Jesus rode into Jerusalem. The Crucifixion (the cut off) is right at the end of the 69th week.

To place the cut off in the middle of the 70th week, you would need to accept a much later date for the Crucifixion, which would push the birth of Jesus into AD.

 

[ebedmelech]

Can you read?

Can you read?

What don't you understand about this clear and plain word of God?

28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd , and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built ; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid . Isaiah 44:28


What part of Jerusalem shall be built do you not understand!

Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built

Jerusalem, the city!

Cyrus was responsible to restore Jerusalem.

All of Jerusalem which includes the Temple and the city, as the word of the Lord shows us in Isaiah 44:28.


JLB

I'm reading fine...how about you? You see I'm taking everything said...you don't...so keep with what you think. Ezra 1:1 tells us exactly what Cyrus did...he even tells us what Cyrus was fulfilling:
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying:

Now...you have to pay attention here in Ezra 1:2-6
2“Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, ‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth ]and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3 Whoever there is among you of all His people, may his God be with him! Let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah and rebuild the house of the Lord, the God of Israel; He is the God who is in Jerusalem.
4 Every survivor, at whatever place he may live, let the men of that place support him with silver and gold, with goods and cattle, together with a freewill offering for the house of God which is in Jerusalem.’”

There you have it. Cyrus' decree cannot be more specific it's only to rebuild the temple ONLY. NOT ONE WORD about the city.

The decree to rebuild the city was given to Nehemiah by King Artaxerses in Nehemiah 2.

Nehemiah's complaint to the king is about the fact that the city is laid waste. That would be Nehemiah 2:2:
2 So the king said to me, “Why is your face sad though you are not sick? This is nothing but sadness of heart.” Then I was very much afraid.
3 I said to the king, “Let the king live forever. Why should my face not be sad when the city, the place of my fathers’ tombs, lies desolate and its gates have been consumed by fire?”

So now i ask you:
Can you read?

Can you read?

I will also stand with the chart I posted that demonstrates where the 70 weeks start:

The seventy weeks are consecutive and THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TEMPLE!!!
Daniel 9:24, 25 tell us exactly what the 70 week apply to. You want to include the temple...BUT IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE TEMPLE...read it:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

When you find temple ANYWHERE is that passage let me know.

The book of Ezra is about the TEMPLE and Cyrus decree to rebuild it.

The book of Nehemiah is about THE CITY OF JERUSALEM and the decree Artaxerses gave him to go rebuild the city.

Like I sad...I'm reading fine!!!

 

[Houly]

The book of Nehemiah is about THE CITY OF JERUSALEM and the decree Artaxerses gave him to go rebuild the city.

That pushes the starting date for the chart to 13 years later, which I agree with. That's why I think a 'seven' must mean 2,520 days (84 months of 30 days), rather than a full seven years (2,556.7 days). If the 69 'sevens' were a full 483 years, the cut off would be in 40 AD (or 43 AD in your view, the middle of the 70th week). If a 'seven' is simply 2,520 days, the 69 'sevens' end on March 30, 33 AD, and then the Jewish rejection of Christ and the Crucifixion is the cut off. There is then another entire 70th week that must be fulfilled.

 

[ebedmelech]

That pushes the starting date for the chart to 13 years later, which I agree with. That's why I think a 'seven' must mean 2,520 days (84 months of 30 days), rather than a full seven years (2,556.7 days). If the 69 'sevens' were a full 483 years, the cut off would be in 40 AD (or 43 AD in your view, the middle of the 70th week). If a 'seven' is simply 2,520 days, the 69 'sevens' end on March 30, 33 AD, and then the Jewish rejection of Christ and the Crucifixion is the cut off. There is then another entire 70th week that must be fulfilled.

The real question is WHERE DO THE 70 weeks end because I think it's pretty clear the decree is that of Artaxerses.

I think the 70 weeks end with the stoning of Stephen because after Stephen is stoned the preaching of the gospel goes from Jerusalem into Judea and Samaria. That would be Acts 8:1
Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

This is in agreement with what Jesus told the apostles in Acts 1:8:
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
This is where the church leaves Jerusalem following what Jesus told them.

Also is the issue of the end of the 69th week. I hold with my chart that has the 69th week ending and the 70th week beginning with Jesus baptism and anointing by God.

 

[Houly]

I hold with my chart that has the 69th week ending and the 70th week beginning with Jesus baptism and anointing by God.

There aren't enough years after Nehemiah 2 for that to be right. Starting at 444 BC, the 69th week ends in 33 AD at the earliest (that's using a 'seven' = only 2,520 days). That'd be too late for the baptism.

If you go with an earlier date than 33 AD for the end of the 69th week, you have to go with an earlier decree, either Artaxerxes in Ezra 7 (457 BC) or all the way back to Cyrus.

I agree that Nehemiah 2 is the starting point, and it fits that the Crucifixion week in 33 AD is the cut off. It works out to the day.

 

[Interplanner]

The details of the last week in Dan 9 have too much to do with the DofJ to pretend they are future.

 

[Anto9us]

I like "pieces of things" from everybody that has contributed.

Though nothing "fills every square of every translation" throughout this whole passage, I basically concur with what Houly just posted above - 444 bc for decree, 33 AD for end of 69th week.

I considered views of others, even had an idea of my own I had to shoot down...

I a long time ago originally settled on the 444 BC letter of Artaxerxes - in Neh 2 - because it was so specific about "WALLS" being rebuilt, talked about a special letter to the Royal Forest Ranger of the time, giving permission to get all the timber they needed to fix walls -- that "decree" just matched WALLS so much better than an earlier decree dealing mainly with Temple artifacts and the earliest original Cyrus decree that just said "yeah, you can go back and build a Temple."

I liked JLB's idea of a REASON to split off the first seven SEVENS from the next 62 SEVENS - but I don't go so far as seeing an "earlier GAP" between those 2 sets of weeks - and I just cant see starting with the earliest decree because 444 bc has so much about rebuilding WALLS and city itself, as some have discussed

I like Interplanner's idea that certain things are "flattened" when seen by OT prophets - that involved one of my own ideas that I had to shoot down -- that the whole GAP between 69th and 70th week dealt with the CHURCH AGE (which Daniel couldn't see into)

A verse came to mind, I think from Paul, that the CHURCH was a "mystery hidden in past ages" or words to that effect -- I saw Daniel ABLE TO SEE THRU 69TH WEEK - lotta OT prophets saw details about the MESSIAH himself (i.e. Micah = Bethlehem) but OT prophets didn't look into the Church Age itself - or so I thought.

Then I considered that ch 9 verse 26B talks about the Temple/city destruction -- so unless that is a yet future destruction, other than Titus in 70 AD - we would have a case of Daniel "peeking into the CHURCH AGE" -

whereas maybe I always looked on it that "Daniel could see thru 69th week when Messiah was cut off -- then things were a BLANK to him til the far-future 70th week"

and maybe that is still so -- there was no literal "FLOOD" in the 70 AD destruction -- and as I look at translations newer than King Jimmy I see more "WATER" as it were...

"water, water everywhere - and all the boards did shrink
water, water everywhere - nor any drop to drink"

MOAT?

RSV has - in verse 25 - "...there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with

squares and

moat,

but in a troubled time."

Moats... Flood... when did Jerusalem have a MOAT around it?

And what are the SQUARES?

And is "FLOOD" completely figurative in verse 25 - like, Titus' army "came in like a FLOOD", or what?

There is a GAP between 69th and 70th week, but I think also there are some "gaps" in other things in this difficult passage - with pretty significant variances even among major translations

What is ANNOINTED in verse 24? Messiah or PLACE?

Modern Language Bible literally has "to consecrate the Holy of the Holies" in the same phrase the KJV just says "to anoint the Most Holy".

RSV and NRSV both have "to anoint a most holy place" at end of verse 24.

NIV, ESV and NASB= "to anoint ('a' or 'the') Most Holy Place."

Young and Darby both have "to anoint the holy of holies."

I think we're all still goin around with axes with Nehemiah - cuttin' down trees with that letter to "Asaph, the keeper of the king's forest" - collectin' timber to build walls

BUT WE AINT OUTTA THE WOODS YET concerning Daniel 9.

































































RSV has "to anoint a most holy place."

 

[JLB777]

I'm reading fine...how about you? You see I'm taking everything said...you don't...so keep with what you think. Ezra 1:1 tells us exactly what Cyrus did...he even tells us what Cyrus was fulfilling:
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying:

Now...you have to pay attention here in Ezra 1:2-6
2“Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, ‘The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth ]and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3 Whoever there is among you of all His people, may his God be with him! Let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah and rebuild the house of the Lord, the God of Israel; He is the God who is in Jerusalem.
4 Every survivor, at whatever place he may live, let the men of that place support him with silver and gold, with goods and cattle, together with a freewill offering for the house of God which is in Jerusalem.’”

There you have it. Cyrus' decree cannot be more specific it's only to rebuild the temple ONLY. NOT ONE WORD about the city.

The decree to rebuild the city was given to Nehemiah by King Artaxerses in Nehemiah 2.

Nehemiah's complaint to the king is about the fact that the city is laid waste. That would be Nehemiah 2:2:
2 So the king said to me, “Why is your face sad though you are not sick? This is nothing but sadness of heart.” Then I was very much afraid.
3 I said to the king, “Let the king live forever. Why should my face not be sad when the city, the place of my fathers’ tombs, lies desolate and its gates have been consumed by fire?”

So now i ask you:
Can you read?

Can you read?

I will also stand with the chart I posted that demonstrates where the 70 weeks start:

The seventy weeks are consecutive and THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TEMPLE!!!
Daniel 9:24, 25 tell us exactly what the 70 week apply to. You want to include the temple...BUT IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE TEMPLE...read it:
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

When you find temple ANYWHERE is that passage let me know.

The book of Ezra is about the TEMPLE and Cyrus decree to rebuild it.

The book of Nehemiah is about THE CITY OF JERUSALEM and the decree Artaxerses gave him to go rebuild the city.

Like I sad...I'm reading fine!!!

No your not.

If you could read, you would have acknowledged the word in Isaiah 44:28.

Where do those dates of 444 BC come from?

You show no gap between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks.

You chart is from a secular source and is unreliable.

The scripture give you the time line.

Cyrus was rasied up by God and anointed for the purpose of restoring Jerusalem as well as the Temple.

as it is written -

28 Who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd, And he shall perform all My pleasure, Saying to Jerusalem, "You shall be built," And to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid." ' Isaiah 44:28

Sorry, yours is a man made doctrine.


JLB