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Is the Sabbath Commandment proof that the TCs are not for Christians?

Saint Steven

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Thanks for your post.

What was the timeframe on these historical claims you are making? You said "later generations"? Did you mean after the deaths of the original Apostles, or what exactly? And made reference to "ecumenical councils". The third and fourth centuries?

Interesting to compare the writing dates of the NT canon with the writings of the early church that were not canonized. And compare what they say about Christianity at the time.
 
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OzSpen

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Steven,

The Ten Commandments applied to Israel under the Old Covenant. However, while the 'Ten Commandments' does not appear as a conglomerate whole in the NT, through the NT there are commands for 9 commandments that must not be broken.

Because one of the 10 is obsolete in the NT, does not mean that the other 9 are of no value?

We don't need to have '10 commandments' or '9 commandments' as statements in the NT to make them valid, just as the words Trinity or Bible are not in Scripture but the teachings are.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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All of them are sin, but if we didn't have the ten commandments how would you know what sin is?

CoGH,

The 10 commandments are not sin. They are commands not to sin.

Oz
 
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Saint Steven

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Thanks. But consider this.

Most are satisfied to "find" the Ten mentioned somewhere in the NT. I say Ten because many use that figure. (I understand that you don't) And somehow "finding" them confirms their validity. (that they are "still" in force) However, when we study these passages we find something else. Just mentioning them does not give them validity. What is the NT saying about them?

The NT says that we are not under the law. The TCs are part of that law that we are not under. One either accepts the whole package, or rejects the whole package. You can't really pick nine out of the 613 and claim you have this figured out.
 
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Serving Zion

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Yes it is interesting to read the change in the writings according to knowledge, intent and authority.

This is a good article that speaks of Constantine's involvement in the shift from the original faith, and that was around 350-400AD, where the day of Sunday worship came to replace Sabbath rest (see how paganism had subverted Christianity in that way .. James 4:4).


Notice how the speech also is far more antisemitic in comparison to the original Christian speech as Romans 9:1-5, showing how the grace of speech is intrinsically linked to the spirit, a result of belief (hence 2 Peter 2:1-2).
 
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Archippus

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What is the importance of the phrase ''Ten Commamndmemts''?

Is it for Christians not to take the Lords name in vain?
Is it for Christians to honour their parents?
Is it for Christians not to steal?
Is it for Christians not to commit adultery?
Is it for Christians not to murder?
Is it for Christians not to bear false witness?
Is it for Christians not to covet?
Is it for Christians to have no other gods apart from their Father in Heaven?
Is it for Christians not to build graven images?

I would think that is what is important to know. The other commandment can be discussed at length elsewhere
 
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Dkh587

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The Messiah, the Apostles, disciples and all the assemblies, such as the Romans, the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Corinthians were ALL Sabbath keepers.

The aforementioned did not go to church on Sunday.

Biblically, “Christians” were Sabbath keepers. Going to church on sundays and ignoring the Sabbath is based out of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Bible.
 
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Saint Steven

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Thank you. Here's my point.

The writings of the early church happened in the same timeframe as the canonized NT writings. What do those writings indicate about the NT church of the day? Most people assume that those writings were post-NT. That they were written after the New testament was "closed". Which is a complete misunderstanding of the order of events.

One example is the Didache, also known as The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. Dated at 50-120 AD. Here is a sampling of the text about the day of worship. (I think the subheading is a modern addition)

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day.
But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."
 
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woobadooba

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I believe threads like this are disingenuous. It appears the OP is looking for validation to justify a personal decision not to keep the Sabbath day holy. Opinions don't matter here. The word of God does not rest upon opinions.

There is no direct word from God which says He no longer requires people to keep the Sabbath day holy. Moreover, all of the writings referred to from Paul which people use to try to support the idea that the Sabbath has been changed or done away with, have been taken out of their historical and cultural contexts.

What I find to be ironic about threads like this is the Sabbath is always the issue. Never the rest of God's 10 commands. And that is what leads me to believe threads like this are disingenuous.
 
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eleos1954

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Sin before Adam and Eve (transgression of Gods law in heaven - 10 Commandments)

Ezekiel 28:15-16 (talking about Satan here)


15“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.

16“By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.

Sin is and has always been transgression of the law
The law is in Heaven ... else how did Satan sin?

1st John 3:4

Where there is no law there is no transgression


Before Sinai

Cain murdered Able .... how was this known to be wrong (sin transgression thou shalt not murder) if not for the law being known.

Genesis 9:6 - (God speaking to Noah)

6 Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man his blood will be shed;

Genesis 13:13 …..”The men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.”

2nd Peter 2:7-8 …..”And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked; for that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.”

Genesis 15:16 …..”But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

How could the men of Sodom be wicked and sinners if there was no law in place? And how could the Amorites be guilty of iniquity if there was no law? And for the most clear cut Bible verse, have another look at 2nd Peter 2:7-8 above. It says that the people of Sodom did UNLAWFUL deeds. Now how can someone be UNlawful where there is no law? There had to have been a law in place for the people to obey, and that law was the Ten Commandments.

Genesis 26:5 …..”Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”….. What did Abraham do (before Sinai)? He kept GOD’s commandments.

Matthew 5:18

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Does not say except the 4th commandment that is only for the Jews.

Jesus kept the Sabbath .... all the apostles kept the Sabbath.

Some argue ... Jesus was a Jew .... more importantly, Jesus is God!

John 10:30
I and the Father are one."

John 14

9 Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.…

We are called to walk in the footsteps of Jesus.

Where in the Bible does either Jesus or any of the apostles say it is not necessary to keep the 7th day Sabbath? If it was not necessary to keep it ... then why did they keep it?

Even at His death (Jesus) the 7th day Sabbath was kept. If the 7th day Sabbath was nailed to the cross .... why did was the 7th day Sabbath kept even at Jesus' death? Because they were Jews? Were they not followers of Christ .... yes they were and because Jesus kept the Sabbath so did they.

The 7th day Sabbath is different from other "sabbaths" that were kept in regard to ceremonies, ordinances, festivals related to the sacrificial system.

Colossians 2:14

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Christ fulfilled the obligations of the ceremonial law by becoming the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. He fulfilled the obligation of the law of Ten Commandments by His perfect obedience to its precepts. After His death, the law of ceremonies were discontinued (took about 40 years before completely ceasing, but they did) because it foreshadowed the cross, but the law of Ten Commandments did not change, nor was it done away with. The same law (10 Commandments) is still to be found in the New Testament and those who follow Christ.

Matthew 5:18

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

All has not yet been accomplished ... the Law stands.

The Law stands ... but because Jesus kept the Law ... through His blood believers in Him will be saved from condemnation of the Law .... that is something quite different than claiming the Law was/is abolished or done away with.

Without the law there would be no knowledge of sin.

When all is done .... those with the Lord will be in perfect harmony with the Law ... the Law does and will stand/exist but the breaking of it (sin) will be gone (we will be changed) with the final outcome being eternal life with God living in perfect harmony with Him and according to and within His Law. We will be given a new nature ... a nature without sin (transgression of the law) and this will be for eternity. AMEN!

Will sabbath be kept in heaven, yes ... all of Gods laws will be kept, naturally.

So, in the meantime, our sin is made known to us (by the law) and with the help of the Holy Spirit He helps us to overcome ... and we stumble at times ... it is a life-long process util all is done.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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Jesus kept the Sabbath holy just as he kept all of the 10 commandments. Although Christians are under grace rather than the law it is still our guide as to how to live and as such we are expected to try our best to keep the commandments as Paul also states:

1 Corinthians 9:21

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
 
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Saint Steven

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Disingenuous?
What about your supposed "biblical" claim that the Sabbath that God gave to the Israelites alone is for all of humanity? Prove it.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
 
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Saint Steven

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Expected to try our best? How do you measure that?

Could you have tried harder? (of course) Was that enough to save you? (probably not) How hard do you have to try? (who could say?) Did you try hard enough? (how much is enough?)
 
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Saint Steven

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Are you claiming that the Ten Commandments define sin?
 
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woobadooba

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Disingenuous?
What about your supposed "biblical" claim that the Sabbath that God gave to the Israelites alone is for all of humanity? Prove it.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Looks like I hit a nerve. Interesting.

Show me one verse where God said keeping the Sabbath day holy is only for the Jews. You won't find one. You are reading meaning into the Bible that isn't there, and looking for validation to justify your disobedience to God's command.
 
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Saint Steven

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There are three laws mentioned in that scripture.
- the law (which Paul says he is not under)
- God's law (which he says he is not free from)
- Christ's law (which he says he is under)
 
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ThatCanadianDude_88

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It's important to note the distinction Paul is making. He is talking about the law apart from Christ to clearly define the law's purpose. Prior to Christ, the law brought death - in that it revealed the righteousness of God and condemned the sinfulness of man, ultimately making known to Him the need for salvation from God. Yet Paul still calls it glorious - because before the righteousness of God can be produced in us, it first needs to be made known. Paul talked a lot on this topic in the NT scriptures.

But that is the main point I would say of this passage, to understand that the context is the nature of the law and its purpose. It is the tutor that leads us to Christ, and by being in Christ, we are able to fulfill the law through the ministry of the Spirit. We are totally dependant on the Lord, this is exactly why Paul tells us, "it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." This is exactly just that, the ministry of the Spirit.

It is not to say that because the law brings death, we shouldn't have anything to do with it. The law brings death apart from Christ.
 
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Saint Steven

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The question goes the other way as well.
Show me one verse where God said keeping the Sabbath day holy is for everyone.

Exodus 31:13
Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Ezekiel 20:12, 20
Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy. 20 Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.”
 
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