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Featured Is the posttrib position correct?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by YeshuaRedeemed, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's a big bible, and the mistake we often make is we only look at the NT. And that's everyone, I am not picking on anybody. :) The most repeated prophecy, and it is not even close... is not the coming or the return of messiah. It is not the rapture, or the great and terrible day of the Lord.... the thing that is most repeated that has not happened yet is the reunification of the entire or whole House of Israel. Some believe this has happened, but Hosea 1:11 makes it clear, when Judah and Ephraim come back together again, they will appoint a head over them, and there has not been a king over a united Israel since Solomon. Deut. 30:1-6, all of Hosea, Ezekiel 37, and 100 other references I can list. Even in Acts 1:6, where the disciples are asking if then was the time to set up the Kingdom. It wasn't... and the fact that they asked and he left the answer open proves is hadn't happened at that time. Since it certainly hasn't happened in the last 2000 years, then it remains the most repeated prophecy that is left on the table. Now yes, Israel being a nation has prophetic significance, but make no mistake... the people there do not represent all of Israel and it is a secular nation, not a kingdom ruled by messiah. Hosea 1:11 has not been fulfilled.

    My point in sharing this is simple Brian... where you said, "The thing is though that God is not so cryptic that a basic idea of what is going to happen and a chronology of events cannot be determined," you kind of made the point I was trying to make. If the most repeated prophecy in the bible is written in plain language and yet (I bet) 1% of Christianity would not have given the correct answer, then there still appears to be things that need to be revealed. So He can be cryptic at times, He can be clear at times... and NONE of us know with 100% certainty that we are correct (if we're being honest... and if not, then too full of pride to know any better :) )!
     
  2. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    Would you please give us the scripture details (example..Rev 1:1)so I can follow your reasoning.

    Thanks

    Blade
     
  3. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    Hi Sabertooth, hope this post finds you well...

    The problem with that argument, is the Pre-tribers will be Raptured i a blink of an eye all others will be left behind. The only chance then for those who will come to believe in the "everlasting Gospel" (the Gospel of Grace will fulfilled) will have to die in the name of Jesus Christ.

    As far as our conclusions: Some conclusions (amellenialism vs. Pre-millennium ) are too wide to be covered by Grace of Jesus Christ...

    1 Cor 15:1-4 tells us that Jesus Died, was buried and was resurrected according to scriptures.

    This according to scripture is in effect the Word of GOD which is the Holy Bible (KJV in my opinion). In otherwords, one cannot believe in Jesus as a Man who received divinity instead of the Jesus Christ who was, is and will be GOD as well as a man.

    Hope this does not scare you away.

    Blade


    Blade
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Good post, Ken.
    It is very unfortunate that most Christians do not know that they are the Israel of God. Whether that is by descent or by grafting in to the Tree; the source of Israel - Jesus.

    In the 36th chapter of Ezekiel, the prophet tells the story of how all the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, of Judah, Israel and grafted in: are gathered, redeemed and settled into all of the holy Land.
    However, before then, the story unfolds;

    Isaiah 41:1Keep silent before Me you coasts and islands….
    Five steps are mentioned here by the prophet; keep silent – When ancient Israel migrated from their captivity in Assyria, they remained hidden until they regained their strength. Then, let them come near – awaken to the true gospel, evangelism from John Wycliffe to Billy Graham, etc.

    Let them speak – proclaim the good news around the world.

    Still to come is ‘Let us meet in the place of judgement’ Isaiah 41:8-9 God will soon call His people back to the Land, where the administration of His commandments and Laws will be restored. Ezekiel 36:27

    Jeremiah 3:8 Israel and Judah divorced from God and sent into captivity for their sins, for a decreed period; Ezekiel 4:4-6.

    Then God took Ezekiel in a vision to a valley full of dry bones;
    Ezekiel 37:11 These bones are the whole house of Israel [the 12 tribes] They say: our hope is gone, we are cut off. {from God} Ezekiel 37:9-10 The Lord God says: let the winds [Gods spirit] come and breath into the slain [dead to the Gospel] that they might live. They came to life and stood up- a mighty company! [of Christians]

    Ezekiel 37:12-13 I will bring you up from your graves [our present condition] and restore you to the Land of Israel.

    Through Isaiah, God gives a message to Israel, identifying them as a people who have lost the knowledge of their origin and forgotten their ancestors:
    Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who know the Law [the common Judeo-Christian Law of our countries] You who seek the Lord [Christian peoples] consider your origin, where you came from- Abraham and Sarah are your parents. I blessed them and now you are their offspring.

    God is looking forward to the day when the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus is completed. His sacrifice of atonement and salvation is made available to all who accept it and acknowledge their Creator. Everyone who has the faith of Abraham, is deemed to be his offspring. Galatians 3:26-29 One of the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

    The great awakening of all the Israelites is symbolically represented as life from the dead, for through the Resurrection of Jesus, God demonstrates His power and is enabled to do this; Ezekiel 37:14 I shall put My spirit into you and you will live. [a true Godly life] Thus you will know that I, the Lord has acted and spoken.

    And in Ezekiel 37:26-28 I shall make an everlasting covenant with Israel. My sanctuary will be in their midst, I will be their God and they will be My people.
    The Glory of God will be present in the new Temple, as in ancient times.
    As you say; Hosea 1:11 is not fulfilled yet, also Jeremiah 30:21, where the people of New Israel, [Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5] will elect their own leaders.

    The Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign comes several years later.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    DP
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  6. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    The next greatest event to take place will be when Jesus removes His Bride before the 7 year tribulation and before "the man of sin" is revealed.
     
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  7. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    This is not correct. If your scenario turns out to be correct, the Faithful will be caught away no matter which view they held up until that point. (I would actually prefer pre-Trib, but it is not compatible with all of the verses on the matter.)

    We won't be graded on uncertain orthodoxy. We will be graded on our faithfulness.
     
  8. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    I've heard his name before, but I didn't know anything about him. I read that he was a big influence on Bill Gothard, too. (I attended BG's Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts as a teen.)
     
  9. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    This post was deleted by Blade on purpose.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    You mean something like this?:
    Matthew 24:
    3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

    4 And Jesus answered and said to them:


    Hopefully we can agree from the above clear passage that Jesus is directly addressing His disciples here.

    Jesus continues...
    “Take heed that no one deceives you[the apostles]. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you[the apostles] will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you[the apostles] are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet...

    9 “Then they will deliver you[the apostles] up to tribulation and kill you[the apostles], and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake...

    15 “Therefore when you[the apostles] see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.


    He told the apostles plainly, directly, that when THEY saw the AoD, THEN it was time to flee.

    Notice Jesus didn't say "If you apostles see, if you apostles hear, if they deliver you apostles up"... etc...
    He said WHEN.

    Jesus knew all these things He listed would come to pass for the apostles in their day.

    Ours is to accept His words and adjust our view to fit them, not to adjust His words to fit our view.
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I meant to reply to this and got tied up in another forum where it slipped my mind.

    "The context of the Olivet Discourse was Jesus’ condemnation of the scribes and Pharisees (Matt 23:1–36), his lament over Jerusalem (Matt 23:37–39), and his prophecy of the destruction of the temple (Matt 24:1–3). There are multiple time indicators (“this generation,” Matt 23:36; 24:34); personal references (“you,” “your,” Matt 23:34–36; 24:2, 6, 9, 15, 20, 23, 25, 26, 32–34); obvious references to Jewish circumstances (Matt 24:15–20); and the facts of history (Luke 21:20). Those all clearly relate the context to the events surrounding the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in AD 70."


    Jonathan Menn. Biblical Eschatology.
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    There is no historical record of the many prophesied cosmic events prophesied to occur in the end times. It all awaits final fulfilment, despite the preterists desperate and vain attempts to bin it all into the past.

    Wouldn't it be much better for all to have at least, some idea of what God has planned for His people in these days? However, the prophets do say events will surprise most people, too bad really.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revelation says "things that will shortly come to pass". So the trick is finding them in history which many Historicists do. Futurists miss these fulfillments expecting instead the symbols that John uses to represent them. But it all starts by defining the kingdom by Jesus' words instead of using the Pharisees model as is most popular today.
     
  14. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    Futurists cannot miss something that hasn't come to pass yet.
    Apparently historicist need a new "trick".
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    If things prophesied are events and occurrences that can be literally fulfilled; then they will be.
    We have the fulfilled prophesies about the first Advent of Jesus literally fulfilled. Why not those about His second Advent and all the prophesied things to happen before that great Day?
    Denying this is very wrong as God does want us to know and be prepared for it.
     
  16. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 New Member

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    Hi Sabertooth! Keith Green was a fireball with a lot of innocence, passion, and zeal. He originally wanted to sing for secular reasons and when the secular rejected him, he held on tightly to Christ who accepted him! Since then, he started singing for the Lord and making his music available for free (which annoyed record companies).

    He really wanted to love Jesus and his passion comes through with his music. I read his biography; he was definitely on fire for God. If you want to know more about him, here's a song from him called 'You love the world'. Below that is a youtube link to his biography. :)



     
  17. PeterJames0510

    PeterJames0510 New Member

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    My two cents: I love *arguing* for a pre-trib Rapture, it's like my pet hobby.

    But since someone brought up Keith Green - I feel like it's far more important to live a holy life in the case we are wrong about our end times scenario. I could go on and on, and yet if you love Jesus - you're ready to go! :)
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Where is the record of this one being literally fulfilled:

    Isaiah 7:14
    14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

    Go ahead and provide the scriptural (or even Historic) record of Mary the Virgin naming her Son Immanuel, as this prophesy LITERALLY says would happen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  19. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Hi sis.. you know.. as I see it now.. I am not pre mid or post. I can find each view..two are easier to see. But for ME it HAS to be written. And none are. I still remember watching this man of God.. went home now that was talking about this. Said he was post trib...yet added...if He does come pre.. I am ready now!. I always loved that.

    My view is.. since I cant find a clear verse. I know He cant lie. I know He is making me a place. I know He will come back.. I know He told the 12 that.. so He lied to them ..or He only knew that once He rose.. nothing had to happen for Him to come back.

    None the less.. since I cant find a verse in the word where HE promised me tomorrow. And this is the day the lord has made.. this is the only moment I have.. I live each moment as if NOW is when He is coming. And I read that He is out side of time.. so when He comes back.. it will always be NOW! So I am ready NOW! I will never miss Him. I am always ready.. my oil is full.

    I never run with "what Jesus really meant.. what that verse is really saying". way to many times.. speculation is used. In that case..any case can be used. For me.. Jesus said all that needs to be said.. I am coming soon! I am in that house.. I dont know when the owner is coming. Some are doing what ever they want. They KNOW when He is coming. I dont.. so you see me always trying to be ready looking out the window. Making sure the house is clean..
     
  20. thomas15

    thomas15 New Member

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    Likewise.

    I think one of the biggest mysteries in life has to do with how average and above and well read persons refuse to believe what is plainly taught.

    The early Church was pre-mil and yet there are those that insist that it is a new doctrine. When Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire it was assumed by many that this was the Kingdom promised to Abraham, just in spiritual form. Over time, the church in Rome forced the teaching that it was the promised kingdom. When the reformers came along they didn't correct that one doctrine of Rome which in actuality is the most serious error in need of actual reform.

    Covenant A-Mills show nothing but contempt for the dispies and are constantly saying that theirs is of recent manufacture. And yet they have no problems with the modern preterist movement which makes the dispies look old in comparison. That and the fact that there is literally no historical data to back up the preterist theory. It's a real head scratcher.
     
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