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Featured Is the posttrib position correct?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by YeshuaRedeemed, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. YeshuaRedeemed

    YeshuaRedeemed John 14:3

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    I am posttrib, but open to hearing other views. I promise to be gentle. I want to also link you to some Scripture.
    Mark 13: Bible Gateway passage: Mark 13 - King James Version
    Mattew 24: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24 - King James Version
    2 Thessalonians 2: Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2 - King James Version
    All I ask is that you review this evidence, and tell me what you think. If you disagree and have differing evidence, I promise to review it. Please remember that eschatology, is not soteriology. Thank you.
     
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  2. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    There are enough scriptures that it should be seriously considered. A Post-Tribber doesn't lose anything, if the Pre-Tribbers are right. Pre-Tribbers won't be prepared, if the Post-Tribbers are right.

    As Keith Green used to say,
    "Pray for Pre-; prepare for Post-."
     
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  3. YeshuaRedeemed

    YeshuaRedeemed John 14:3

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    I agree, my friend. I struggled with this for a long time, but feel posttrib is what Jesus preach, however, I judge not my fellow Christians, lest I be judged. All I can do is present this evidence, and let the Holy Spirit take over.
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The great tribulation happened in 70 AD to the Jews in the destruction of Jerusalem. It will be as in the days of Noah with Christian tribulation, like today, when Jesus returns. Proof available if called for.
     
  5. YeshuaRedeemed

    YeshuaRedeemed John 14:3

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    I'm open to any evidence that people want to post. :) <3
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Context is the second coming.

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Context is the second coming.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul.

    So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

    1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
    2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
    3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
    This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
     
  7. YeshuaRedeemed

    YeshuaRedeemed John 14:3

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    Thank you. I agree with Scripture, and you.
     
  8. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Yes, you're right. I did my own analysis at The Rapture

    Long video. Good to be thorough, but don't have time to watch it all. Good work.
     
  9. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For a while, I was assuming pre-trib because this is the only idea I was hearing. Then I realized I had never searched the Scriptures to see if anywhere God says anything like "Jesus will return just before the tribulation." The Holy Spirit could have said something like this, in seven words. But everywhere I read a statement about the Rapture, it did not say the Resurrection of the Church Bride, the Rapture, would be just before the trib.

    But in Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus says what will happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days". And nowhere does He say He will return or resurrect us "immediately before". And 1 Corinthians 15:52 says we will be raised "at the last trumpet"; and the last trumpet which Jesus talks about is that trumpet which sounds . . . "immediately after" > Matthew 24:31. Plus, the last trumpet mentioned in the book of Revelation > Revelation 11:15 > is followed by voices saying that Jesus will rule; this to me seems like a match with how the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 will come at the resurrection of the elect which is just before Jesus rules during the Millennial kingdom.

    Plus, Paul says "the dead in Christ will rise first." (in 1 Thessalonians 4:16) If we get raptured while we are still alive . . . before saved people die for Jesus during the trib., those who die in Christ during the trib won't rise first.

    But there is something maybe more important than arguments of words and ideas. There are people who feel God could not take care of them, if they were in the Great Tribulation. Yet, the Bible says there will be people who will live through it; Jesus will even gather His elect, "immediately after", He says. So, in case you don't believe God is able to take care of you, this is not the right reason to believe in pre-trib, in any case.

    Paul went through such tribulation. And he says he took "pleasure" in it all, once he was submitting to how God's grace took care of him > see 2 Corinthians 12:7-15. At first, it seems, Paul was trying to make things happen, himself, and things got to him. So, he begged Jesus to take away that thorn "messenger of Satan" who was allowed to mess with him. But he did not need some miracle of convenience, but he needed to do things in the sufficiency of God's grace which could keep any attack of Satan from getting to him. Because God's grace is almighty, with God's own immunity almighty against evil spiritual things messing us, plus this almighty grace makes us unstoppable in doing whatsoever God pleases with us.

    I note how Revelation says servants of God will be killed by getting their heads cut off. Possibly, that is not as hard as a lot of suffering Paul went through. Also, ones might cut off heads, because they fear someone could be faking being dead. Satan knows how Paul was stoned but then got back up and went on preaching; so who, then, might be the one who is afraid???? Plus > if evil people in the trib are being tormented and taken out by all those plagues, how much can they be doing to make things really hard for us? They might barely have time to cut off someone's head, before some plague thing has them running or kills them.

    And if evil people are dying > I see you won't have to have money or permission to buy anything. For all I know, you can just walk into someone's house or hut or cave and use their food, empty their car of gas, or pick your donkey; and the next day pick another house and refrigerator and car, or hut or cave and donkey.

    And adopt the children, God willing, so they may be saved and brought up in Jesus.

    Whatever happens, we can make God's use of it. But God's use is all-loving, and our interpretation of pre or mid or post-trib might be self-centered > limited to what we suppose we now could handle, or how now we can understand. There is more to learn, in relation to how to love and live, not only what to believe.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  10. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I take the view of no "great tribulation" nor a millennial reign.I am a partial Preterist. I believe tribulation has been in a Christians life since the day of Pentecost. It arrives by simply preaching the Gospel. Scripture is clear that Christians will suffer and will be delivered up to tribulation. On the other hand, there is wrath to those who reject the Gospel in the form of a particular type of tribulation and that was spoken of and fulfilled in scripture in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. It may be helpful to hear the words of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth concerning tribulation. It is also spoken of by many of the Apostles where in every city tribulation and chains awaited them.

    Jesus Christ of Nazareth
    "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
     
  11. YeshuaRedeemed

    YeshuaRedeemed John 14:3

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    Agreed. It makes me nervous, but then Jesus promises to be with us always. I believe the birth pangs are beginning, but would not yet say that Week has begun yet.
     
  12. YeshuaRedeemed

    YeshuaRedeemed John 14:3

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    Where can i find more info on preterism? I try to understand where people are coming from.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The most outstanding evidence is no scriptures exist saying there will be a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post trib rapture. So you can rest assured there will not be any. The only rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection according to Paul, Jesus and other scriptures.

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

    “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Corinthians 15:51–53)

    But it happens after the resurrection. Which happens on the last day

    “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

    “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

    “so man lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor arise from their sleep.” (Job 14:12) (NET)
     
  14. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes,

    "I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (in Mathew 28:20)

    And Jesus says His sheep hear His voice; so we need to hear Jesus, all the time.
     
  15. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have understood that the Rapture is the resurrection of Christ's bride church . . . with delighting to be with our Groom Jesus and one another. So, I guess it would not only be the twinkling of an eye change, but the personal sharing then with Jesus.
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul seems to separate the resurrection of the dead from the rapture but both happening on the last day in that order.
     
  17. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are two types, one is Preterism and the other is partial Preterism. The first one is more radical basically claiming that all prophesy has been fulfilled and there is nothing left to be fulfilled in the prophetic calendar. I personally do not agree with this view. Most people who do not follow the dispensational theological system fall into the Partial category. Anyhow, the best teaching on this would be by Steve Gregg of The Narrow Path. You can find his teaching on this here.
    The Narrow Path | Topical Lectures
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Search any of my eleven thousand posts here if you'd like... I've commented on pretty much every eschatological topic from a preterist perspective on this site since 2002.

    Any Honest expositor of scripture has at least SOME preterist leanings, for scripture itself contains apostolic verification of the 1st century fulfillment of certain "last days" prophesy...

    I Hold that all Bible eschatology found it's PRIMARY fulfillment in and around the events leading up to and including Jerusalem's 70 AD destruction.

    That event was unquestionably the Day of the lords Judgement that Jesus and the apostles all said was "at hand, arriving shortly, soon coming, about to take place, before that generation had passed".

    I also hold that the then contemporary judgement in AD 70 Prefigures, in some indeterminable fashion, the future to us consummation of the cosmos, however the timing and details of that event have not been revealed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  19. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    continue...under "When shall these things be"
     
  20. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    ***

    So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

    1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29) Agree

    2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16) Disagree

    ... all the saved dead are resurrected from the grave, changed and taken to heaven.

    There was a "mini example" of this.
    Matthew 27:52
    King James Bible
    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17) Agree

    All the living saved and resurrected saved from the grave go together to heaven with Jesus.

    Paul sums it up here:

    The Return of the Lord

    1 Thessalonians 4

    13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

    15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15

    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30 Agree

    I would also like to add ... also dismisses any "secret rapture" ... the 1st resurrection is going to be a loud glorious event! (with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God.)

    Amen! Come Lord Jesus in all your glory!
     
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