Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

claninja said:

We see that the temple of God was opened followed by lightning , earthquakes, and hail, when it is time for the dead to be judged.

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

This occurs at the 7th trumpet
Revelation 11:17 Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

Which fulfills the mystery of God
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled, just as He proclaimed to His servants, the prophets

I would argue the 7 bowls of wrath are a more detailed look at what happens in revelation 11:19.

We see that when the temple is opened, corresponding to revelation 11:19, the 7 bowls of wrath are poured out

Revelation 15:5-6 After this I looked, and the temple—the tabernacle of the Testimony—was opened in heaven. And out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues, dressed in clean and bright linen and girded with golden sashes around their chests.

The last bowl of wrath results in lightning, thunder, earthquakes and hail, which corresponds to the revelation 11:19. What else happens at this time? God pours out his wrath on Babylon the great and the mountains and Island's flee.

Revelation 16:18-21 And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.
Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each,a rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

Considering this when the dead are judged according to revelation 11:18 and this is when every island and mountain flees according to Revelation 16, I would argue this relates very well to revelation 20:11-15

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This was a well reasoned post. I fully agree with you about some of this, especially how that connects with Revelation ch 16 like you pointed out, but I'm still not convinced any of this involves the GWTJ at some point. It might be because of bias on my part, me being Premil and all, thus the idea of the GWTJ even happening at the time of His return conflicting with my position. If nothing else, at least I'm able to be honest by admitting some of this could be because of bias on my part, and not that you are necessarily wrong. You made some good arguments.

claninja said:

We see that the temple of God was opened followed by lightning , earthquakes, and hail, when it is time for the dead to be judged.

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

This occurs at the 7th trumpet
Revelation 11:17 Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

Which fulfills the mystery of God
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled, just as He proclaimed to His servants, the prophets

I would argue the 7 bowls of wrath are a more detailed look at what happens in revelation 11:19.

We see that when the temple is opened, corresponding to revelation 11:19, the 7 bowls of wrath are poured out

Revelation 15:5-6 After this I looked, and the temple—the tabernacle of the Testimony—was opened in heaven. And out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues, dressed in clean and bright linen and girded with golden sashes around their chests.

The last bowl of wrath results in lightning, thunder, earthquakes and hail, which corresponds to the revelation 11:19. What else happens at this time? God pours out his wrath on Babylon the great and the mountains and Island's flee.

Revelation 16:18-21 And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. And God remembered Babylon the great and gave her the cup of the wine of the fury of His wrath.
Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each,a rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

Considering this when the dead are judged according to revelation 11:18 and this is when every island and mountain flees according to Revelation 16, I would argue this relates very well to revelation 20:11-15

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Hi claninja.
I have a thread on that for those interested, and only 1 member has responded to it.................

Revelation 11:18 "2nd Woe passed, dead judged, reward the Saints"

# 3709:.......36x in 6 unique form(s)

N-GSF
Occurrences: 14 times in 14 verses
Speech: Noun
Parsing: Genitive Feminine Singular

ὀργὴ — 9x
ὀργή — 1x
ὀργῇ — 3x
ὀργὴν — 6x
ὀργήν — 3x
ὀργῆς — 14x

Some verses from the Gospels and Revelation that uses that exact word form:

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?

Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?

Rev 6:16 - and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, 'Fall upon us, and hide us from the face of Him who is sitting upon the throne, and from the wrath <ὀργῆς<3709> of the Lamb,'
Rev 6:17 - because come did the great day of His wrath<ὀργῆς<3709> and who is able to stand?

Revelation 11:18
And the nations are angered<3710>,
and came Thy wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>,
And the time/season<2540> of the dead to be judged<2919>,
And to give the reward/wages<3408> to Thy bondslaves, the Prophets and to the Saints,
and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great
And to destroy/ruin<1311> those who destroying/ruining<1311> the land.”

Rev 14:10
he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
Rev 16:19 - And it came -- the great city -- into three parts, and the cities of the nations did fall, and Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the wrath of His anger,
Rev 19:15 - and out of his mouth doth proceed a sharp sword, that with it he may smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he doth tread the press of the wine of the wrath and the anger of God the Almighty,
================================

Michael Collum said:

parousia and full consumation in the same sentence, that's too much.

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Michael Collum said:

I noticed you translate 1093 as "the land" does this mean that you interpret that the passage refers to the land of Israel as it is referred to in the Old Testament Prophecies, and not the whole earth?

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DavidPT said:

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This has to fit somewhere. And it for sure doesn't fit Revelation 20:11-15.

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If you understand the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, your problem goes away.

.

BABerean2 said:

If you understand the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, your problem goes away.

.

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Trust me, I already fully understand that the book Revelation is not in chronological order from start to finish. There's more involved than just that though. Such as what some of the prophets said in the OT, for example, which tends to lend support for Premil, thus the GWTJ happening at His return seeming unlikely.

BABerean2 said:

You are correct about Revelation 11:18 being in line with Revelation 20:11-15, and when does Revelation 11:18 occur?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible. It is also the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is forever? Is is longer than 1,000 years?

We also have in Revelation 11:18 the "wrath" of God being poured out on the "nations" who are "angry". This would most certainly be judgment of the living.

Read Matthew 25:31-46 and tell us how many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of the passage.
.

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Okay, now I'll go deeper. The timing of Revelation 11:15 is mid tribulation; at the end of the first three and half years. It was used in Revelation 11:15 as an allusion to the actual day of the Lord; the coming of Christ. This is why nowhere in that scripture did it state that Christ had arrived. It was merely used as an an allusion to the actual coming of Christ. Why? I'll tell you why. Because two major similar things occur at the end of the first three and half years and at the end of the last three and half when Christ returns.

These two things are: an earthquake and a hailstorm. They both occur at the middle and at the end of tribulation.

Revelation 11:15 refers to the one occurring mid tribulation as an allusion to the end.

Hence 19 says,

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. (NIV)

If anything, see 15 through Amplified version. The self explanatory title says, The Seventh Trumpet - Christ's reign Foreseen

Meaning the voices in heaven where speaking foreseeing Christ's reign due to what had happened midway; mirroring what'll happen at the end.

The difference between both? The one at the end involves the return of Christ. And the earthquake and hailstorm therein is far worse than the previous which occurred mid tribulation.

Revelation 16:18-21,

And there were flashes of lightning and loud rumblings and peals of thunder; and there was a massive earthquake—nothing like it has ever occurred since mankind originated on the earth, so severe and far-reaching was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And God kept in mind Babylon the great, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce and furious wrath. Then every island fled away, and no mountains could be found. And giant hailstones, as heavy as a talent, fell from the sky on the people; and people reviled and spoke abusively of God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so very great. (AMP)

Notice also that in Revelation 11:15, the voices (plural) which spoke merely came from heaven before the temple was opened.

Revelation 11:15,

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” (NIV)

However, in Revelation 16, the voice (singular) which spoke, came directly from the throne; from the temple of God having been opened earlier.

Revelation 16:17,

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” (NIV)

These tell you that those two events are not one and the same.

DavidPT said:

Does this imply they are judged twice then? This judgment then at the GWTJ after the thousand years?

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No. The only persons who were judged in that scripture were the righteous. Understand that rewards or punishments immediately follow judgement. Hence in verse 34 of Matthew 25 Jesus immediately makes the reward of the righteous available to them.

Matthew 25:34,

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. (NIV)

However to the unbelievers He simply says in verse 41, "Depart from me!" Because they're awaiting judgement.

Matthew 25:41,
“Then he will turn to the ‘goats,’ the ones on his left, and say, ‘Get out, worthless goats! You’re good for nothing but the fires of hell. (MSG)

Verse 46 further says then they will go away to (meaning destined for) eternal punishment.

46,

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment...(NIV)

Messenger 3k said:

Okay, now I'll go deeper. The timing of Revelation 11:15 is mid tribulation; at the end of the first three and half years. It was used in Revelation 11:15 as an allusion to the actual day of the Lord; the coming of Christ. This is why nowhere in that scripture did it state that Christ had arrived. It was merely used as an an allusion to the actual coming of Christ. Why? I'll tell you why. Because two major similar things occur at the end of the first three and half years and at the end of the last three and half when Christ returns.

These two things are: an earthquake and a hailstorm. They both occur at the middle and at the end of tribulation.

Revelation 11:15 refers to the one occurring mid tribulation as an allusion to the end.

Hence 19 says,

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. (NIV)

If anything, see 15 through Amplified version. The self explanatory title says, The Seventh Trumpet - Christ's reign Foreseen

Meaning the voices in heaven where speaking foreseeing Christ's reign due to what had happened midway; mirroring what'll happen at the end.

The difference between both? The one at the end involves the return of Christ. And the earthquake and hailstorm therein is far worse than the previous which occurred mid tribulation.

Revelation 16:18-21,

And there were flashes of lightning and loud rumblings and peals of thunder; and there was a massive earthquake—nothing like it has ever occurred since mankind originated on the earth, so severe and far-reaching was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And God kept in mind Babylon the great, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce and furious wrath. Then every island fled away, and no mountains could be found. And giant hailstones, as heavy as a talent, fell from the sky on the people; and people reviled and spoke abusively of God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so very great. (AMP)

Notice also that in Revelation 11:15, the voices (plural) which spoke merely came from heaven before the temple was opened.

Revelation 11:15,

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” (NIV)

However, in Revelation 16, the voice (singular) which spoke, came directly from the throne; from the temple of God having been opened earlier.

Revelation 16:17,

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” (NIV)

These tell you that those two events are not one and the same.

Click to expand...

You seem to think the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, even though Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

If you think Revelation 11:15 is an "allusion" to the Second Coming, please show us the 8th trumpet in the Book of Revelation.

You are attempting to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, because is also destroys your chronology.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It is the invention of men, as confirmed below by Dr. Kelly Varner.

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.

claninja said:

I have been addressing your questions. Would you give me the same courtesy and answer mine?

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You have my attention.

claninja said:

Jesus is addressing the court, which consisted of Sanhedrin, guards, some viewers, and false witnesses. It doesn't say he addressed "all of Israel". But let's assume he is addressing all of Israel as you put it. What's the difference between Jesus saying to only the court or addressing "all of Israel" that 'FROM NOW ON' they would see the son of man sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds?

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I already explained this to you. "From now on" simply meant "soon after now". Meaning soon after then, He would be enthroned in heaven sitting at the right hand of the Father and Israel would seem him eventually coming in the clouds. You need to understand the sense of what is being portrayed in that scripture. Did The Sanhedrin literally see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God? Even the disciples on the day Jesus ascended, only saw Him ascend to heaven, they didn't see Him literally sitting at the right hand of God. So why use that to buttress your point. Luke 22:69 is a parallel to that scripture and it doesn't say "you will see"...

Luke 22:69,
"But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”
(NIV)

But if anyone would "see" then we can agree people definitely saw visions of Jesus on the right hand of God afterwards.

Because if I understand you correctly you agree with me to some extent but say the end times have ended. And I say it hasn't ended. There is only one end time; not one for Israel and one for gentiles: only one. And it began almost 2000 years ago with the death of Christ, and ends at His return.

claninja said:

The greek word for "now" which is found in the matthew 26:64 passage:

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Please don't show me any Hebrew or Greek words. Or anything from strong or weak's concordance. Align scriptures with scriptures for me.

claninja said:

When the son of man comes with the clouds of heaven, where does he go, to earth, or the presence of the Father?

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This is a somewhat silly question. If anything, the idea behind the word "comes" implies He's approaching us. Because He was speaking with reference to us humans. He said "you will see..." , never said "God will see..." I don't understand how you're getting these ideas.

claninja said:

Please see post 145 Where I stated the kingdom of God came at Christ's ascension to authority and the casting out of Satan Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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Wrong. See my previous posts as well. Again the kingdom of God came with the Holy Spirit (literally about 40 days) after Christ's ascension. Christ had to ascend first before the Holy Spirit could come.

John 16:7

But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. (NIV)

BABerean2 said:

You seem to think the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, even though Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

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I don't think Revelation is in chronological order, I know Revelation is in chronological order.

Do you even understand how Revelation is outlined? The fact that you saw an event spoken of twice doesn't disprove anything. It simply shows you don't understand that Revelation describes events in highlights. The highlight of Revelation 16 isn't the same as that of Revelation 19. Meaning, the key focus of both chapters aren't the same. Hence you shouldn't be distracted by the fact that an event was repeated.

BABerean2 said:

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It is the invention of men, as confirmed below by Dr. Kelly Varner.

Click to expand...

Please don't show me anything from any Doctor. Align scriptures with scriptures for me.

claninja said:

So Israel's disobedience to the law had no affect on the possession of the land?

I completely disagree. Scripture is very clear that their disobedience to the law would bring about the curses of the law, which included uprooting them from the land.

Deuteronomy 28:15 If, however, you do not obey the LORD your God by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

Deuteronomy 28: 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and to multiply you, so also it will please Him to exterminate you and destroy you. And you will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Daniel confirms Israel's transgression of the law poured out the curses of the law on them.
Daniel 9:11-12 All Israel has transgressed Your law and turned away, refusing to obey Your voice; so the oath and the curse written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, has been poured out on us because we have sinned against You. You have carried out the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing upon us a great disaster. For under all of heaven, nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem.

the nation of Israel, under the old covenant, was never promised the land unconditionally.

It was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their offspring (Christ) who was promised the land unconditionally.



I agree, the law justifies no one.



I agree, the righteous live by faith



I agree. It is through Christ that Abraham would be the father of many nations. It is through Christ that the blessings to the nations come. It is Christ who possesses the land promises.

Simply put, it is Christ who fulfills the promises made to Abraham.



I agree, I talked about it in post #127:


Paul also reveals that marriage, the 2 becoming 1 flesh, points to the mystery of Christ and the Church. Christ is the head, the church is his body. Thus, Christ and the church are one, as a husband and wife are one.

Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

Thus Christ, and his body which are one spiritual flesh, is Abraham's offspring and heir of the promise.
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

John 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

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claninja said:

So Israel's disobedience to the law had no affect on the possession of the land?

I completely disagree. Scripture is very clear that their disobedience to the law would bring about the curses of the law, which included uprooting them from the land.

Deuteronomy 28:15 If, however, you do not obey the LORD your God by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

Deuteronomy 28: 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and to multiply you, so also it will please Him to exterminate you and destroy you. And you will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Daniel confirms Israel's transgression of the law poured out the curses of the law on them.
Daniel 9:11-12 All Israel has transgressed Your law and turned away, refusing to obey Your voice; so the oath and the curse written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, has been poured out on us because we have sinned against You. You have carried out the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing upon us a great disaster. For under all of heaven, nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem.

the nation of Israel, under the old covenant, was never promised the land unconditionally.

It was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their offspring (Christ) who was promised the land unconditionally.



I agree, the law justifies no one.



I agree, the righteous live by faith



I agree. It is through Christ that Abraham would be the father of many nations. It is through Christ that the blessings to the nations come. It is Christ who possesses the land promises.

Simply put, it is Christ who fulfills the promises made to Abraham.



I agree, I talked about it in post #127:


Paul also reveals that marriage, the 2 becoming 1 flesh, points to the mystery of Christ and the Church. Christ is the head, the church is his body. Thus, Christ and the church are one, as a husband and wife are one.

Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

Thus Christ, and his body which are one spiritual flesh, is Abraham's offspring and heir of the promise.
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

John 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

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Hello, the Israelites possession of the land was not based on their obedience to the law (Law given through Moses) because No One can justify by the law...OBEDIENCE COMES FROM FAITH and the law is NOT BASED ON FAITH ...

the land was given because of Abraham's Faith...
The same land promised to Isaac, Jacob (Israel) and his descendants(plural)...Genesis 35:10..."God said to him "Your name is Jacob but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel"..

Genesis 35:12..The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants (plural) after you...

Notice: descendants is plural (descendants of Israel " the people of Israel ")

Romans 4:13.." It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be the heir of the world, but through the Righteousness that comes by faith...

It's ALWAYS BEEN FAITH, the law in the Old covenant is NOT based on FAITH...Galatians 3:12

This is the same condition for everyone to possess the Land...Faith comes by our knowledge of Christ who is the seed where the promise was given..Romans 10:17

As it said " So those who rely on Faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of Faith" Galatians 3:9

Those who rely on the works of the law are under a curse....Galatians 3:10

Hebrews 4:2..."For we also have had the good news proclaim to us, just as they did, BUT the message they heard was no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obey...

pasifika said:

Hello, the Israelites possession of the land was not based on their obedience to the law (Law given through Moses) ......The same land promised to Isaac, Jacob (Israel) and his descendants(plural)...
Genesis 35:12..The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants (plural) after you...
Notice: descendants is plural (descendants of Israel " the people of Israel ")

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So Centuries of Abraham's Descendants (Plural) who lived and died without possessing the land for the past 1900+ years, missed out on being recipients of the unconditional land promise to Abraham and His descendants (plural) because......?

Was the unconditional land promise not FOR them too?

Messenger 3k said:

No. The only persons who were judged in that scripture were the righteous. Understand that rewards or punishments immediately follow judgement. Hence in verse 34 of Matthew 25 Jesus immediately makes the reward of the righteous available to them.

Matthew 25:34,

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. (NIV)

However to the unbelievers He simply says in verse 41, "Depart from me!" Because they're awaiting judgement.

Matthew 25:41,
“Then he will turn to the ‘goats,’ the ones on his left, and say, ‘Get out, worthless goats! You’re good for nothing but the fires of hell. (MSG)

Verse 46 further says then they will go away to (meaning destined for) eternal punishment.

46,

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment...(NIV)

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Let me ask this then. In what manner do they depart and where do they go during their departure while awaiting the GWTJ?

DavidPT said:

Let me ask this then. In what manner do they depart and where do they go during their departure while awaiting the GWTJ?

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Depart simply means what it says. Jesus is telling them they have no access to His kingdom hence they should be found no where near it.

The unbelievers don't go anywhere in particular, they remain on earth awaiting judgement and making up the gentile nations of Gog and Magog which Christ rules over through His kingdom. At that time, the kingdom of Christ (Zion), consisting of raptured believers, becomes the only super power in the world.

parousia70 said:

So Centuries of Abraham's Descendants (Plural) who lived and died without possessing the land for the past 1900+ years, missed out on being recipients of the unconditional land promise to Abraham and His descendants (plural) because......?

Was the unconditional land promise not FOR them too?

Click to expand...

Hello, the promise land is an everlasting land and so are the people who dwell on it...the resurrection of Jesus
Christ is the hope they have on possessing the land meaning they will also be resurrected to take their lot, this is the same good news we've heard is the same message they put their hope on given by the Prophets...Hebrews 4:2, For we also have heard the good news proclaimed to us just as they did...(meaning the Israelites) the descendants of Abraham..

Hebrews 11..given some examples of Abraham's Descendants that will have their lot in the promise land...eg; Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Samson, Barak, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the Prophets etc, All these people are descendants of Abraham

Did they receive the things promised?

Hebrews 11:13.." All these people were still living by Faith when they died. They DID NOT RECEIVE THE THINGS PROMISED, they only saw them and welcome them from a distance, admitting that they were Foreigners and strangers on earth...

So, like them we are waiting and looking forward to the city with foundations whose architect and builder is God...
This is the New Jerusalem "the Holy City"..coming down out of heaven...Rev 21

Messenger 3k said:

Please don't show me anything from any Doctor. Align scriptures with scriptures for me.

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OK.

We have signs in the sun, moon, and stars in Revelation chapter 6, just as we have them in the Olivet Discourse at the Second Coming of Christ.
Why would those at the end of chapter 6 be hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present at that point in time. This is the Second Coming.
We also find some of the same characters in chapter 19.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


We find the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and "the time of the judgment of the dead", with reward for some and destruction for others in Revelation 11:15-18.
This is the Second Coming of Christ.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson, which contains the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13.

The Second Coming is found when He "comes as a thief" at Armageddon in Revelation 16.

It is found in chapter 19.

It is found when the fire comes and the judgment of the dead occurs at the end of chapter 20.


Those who claim the Book of Revelation is in chronological order will never get it right.
There are many passage of scripture which must be ignored to make the viewpoint work.


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claninja said:

Was murder wrong before the law of moses? If it was, it would still be wrong after the law of moses.



The old covenant was between the nation of Israel and God.

You seem to group all covenants into the old covenant. I would disagree.

I would argue the covenant made with noah is not the old covenant, nor are the promises made to Abraham the old covenant.



The new covenant with Israel and Judah cancels and void the old covenant made with Israel and Judah. The new covenant does not annul the unconditional promises made to adam, noah, Abraham, or david. The new covenant fulfills those promises through Christ.



I disagree. The promises made to Abraham are not the same as the old covenant promises. Paul clearly contrasts the promises made to Abraham and the law

Galatians 3:17-18 What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.



Now I see where you are going. You believe the Abrahamic promises are the same as the old covenant. Thus how can Christ cancel the Abrahamic promises and yet fulfill them at the same time? I agree. IF the Abrahamic promises were the same as the old covenant promises then there would be a contradiction.

However, the promises to Abraham are not the same as the old covenant promises. The Abrahamic promises are not cancelled, they are fulfilled in Christ. It is the old covenant that is cancelled.

Again Paul clearly establishes a difference between the promises given to Abraham and the old covenant (law of moses)

Galatians 3:17-18 What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.



The promises to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and David are not the same as the old covenant, which was specifically between the nation of Israel and God. The promises made to those men are not annulled by the old covenant made with the nation of Israel.

It would be error to lump the unconditional promises made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and David in with the conditional promises of the old covenant.



So they were misinformed? I disagree.


Notice James states the judge IS STANDING (which is present tense Greek) at the door. The only way for James to have made this statement is he was witnessing the events of the olivet discourse. James is talking directly from the olivit discourse.

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door

This corresponds with Jesus telling the disciples that when they saw all the things of the olivet discourse, they would know he is near, at the door.

Matthew 24:34-35 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.



I disagree, Jesus states some standing in front of him would not die until the kingdom of God arrived.

Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”

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“The old covenant was between the nation of Israel and God.

You seem to group all covenants into the old covenant. I would disagree.

I would argue the covenant made with noah is not the old covenant, nor are the promises made to Abraham the old covenant.

The new covenant with Israel and Judah cancels and void the old covenant made with Israel and Judah. The new covenant does not annul the unconditional promises made to adam, noah, Abraham, or david. The new covenant fulfills those promises through Christ.”



Yet unconditional and eternal promises were given to David well after the Old Covenant had been established. Nevertheless, they still abide because God meant for them to. There are also a number of such promises made to the people and nation of Israel that are still in effect which also includes a final land restoration foretold, most notably in Ezekiel chapter 37 though many more scriptures could be added. All the promises made regarding the preservation and restoration of Israel were never contingent upon the law, but upon the faithfulness of God.

Granted there were rewards the Jews received when they faithfully kept the law, and suffered severe and devastating consequences when they turned away from God, but for the sake of the promises He made to their forefather who were faithful and to King David who was called a man after God’s heart, the Jews have not been destroyed nor were they permanently bereft of their inheritance but the fact that they have been re-established as a nation should be proof enough that their restoration has just begun. They have been restored to their land. Now the next thing to come is their spiritual restoration which the scriptures also foretell.




“The promises made to those men are not annulled by the old covenant made with the nation of Israel.”





The promises made to those men naturally extend to Israel.




“It would be error to lump the unconditional promises made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, and David in with the conditional promises of the old covenant.”





Not all the promises made to Israel were conditional. There are promises made to them that are unconditional as well.


Now concerning the coming of the Lord, it seems that you don’t understand what is being spoken by the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:8-9. The point of that passage that the nearness of our Lord’s return is not the nearness that we would understand it to be. It also points out that Peter knew that, though he expected the imminent return of the Lord, it might not happen in his generation.

I never said that they were misinformed. Your Preterist position has kept you from understanding exactly what that passage is talking about.




“…Jesus states some standing in front of him would not die until the kingdom of God arrived.”





As far as the world and history are concerned, everyone of that generation with whom He walked has passed away. They never saw all that He said was to come and neither have we for that matter. But God is not dependent on ordinary means to fulfill that which He said when He told His disciples that they would not all see death before all that He said was fulfilled.

But there is an interesting passage in the Gospel of John in which Peter asks this question regarding John:



“Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?” (Jn. 21:21-22)




That is not to say that the Apostle John did not die yet it still leaves open the possibility that he might still be alive for a specific time and purpose until our Lord returns. Dare to think it implausible that God would keep alive even a handful of representatives from that generation until the end of the age in order to fulfill prophecy would be to claim that God is dependent on ordinary means to fulfill prophecy and thus imply that He is not as all-powerful as He has said.

If Lucifer has players on his side who are presently in obscurity until the time for them to be revealed has come, who is to say that God Himself has not kept aside players of His own for a specific time to come as well?

pasifika said:

Hello, the promise land is an everlasting land and so are the people who dwell on it...the resurrection of Jesus
Christ is the hope they have on possessing the land meaning they will also be resurrected to take their lot,

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Couple things here.
1)
So there won’t be a NEW Earth?

2)
In the resurrection, which of Abraham’s descendants who reject the Savior will the Savior reward with the land as an everlasting possession?

All of them, since it’s unconditional?

BABerean2 said:

We have signs in the sun, moon, and stars in Revelation chapter 6, just as we have them in the Olivet Discourse at the Second Coming of Christ.
Why would those at the end of chapter 6 be hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, unless the Lamb is present at that point in time. This is the Second Coming.
We also find some of the same characters in chapter 19.

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I already explained this once, but I'll explain it again.

The seven seals are a summary of the all the signs that will occur throughout the seven years tribulation (more precisely, the six seals describe this).
It begins with the wannabe conqueror (not Jesus), war, famine and death - all in the first half of tribulation.
Then followed by the martyrs (those killed for their testimony/refusing the mark of the beast), and the return of Christ - all in the last half of tribulation.

The seven trumpets describe all the signs that'll occur in the first three and half years of tribulation; a major volcanic eruption, meteorite striking earth, partial global darkness and finally rounded up by a major earthquake and hailstorm all in the first half of tribulation.

The seven bowls describe all the signs that'll occur in the last three and half years of tribulation; malignant sores on those who received the mark of the beast, intoxication and fouling of major water bodies, crazy-intense heat from the sun, confusion and troubles in the government of the antichrist, Euphrates river dries up to make way for military advancements from the east in preparation for Armageddon and finally another greater earthquake and hailstorm at the return of Christ.

When you understand this structure, then you'll find your answer to the above question.

BABerean2 said:

We find the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and "the time of the judgment of the dead", with reward for some and destruction for others in Revelation 11:15-18.
This is the Second Coming of Christ.

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Yes, an allusion. Not the actual second coming of Christ. They were foreseeing the coming of Christ. Everything said by the voices and the elders in that chapter was based on foreseeing the coming of Christ. So they spoke as though it had actually happened. I explained this in my previous posts.

BABerean2 said:

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson, which contains the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

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Wrong. Chapter 12 includes a history lesson to enable you understand the highlight/key focus of that chapter. The key focus of chapter 12 are the remnant (believing) Jews in Israel who flee to the desert after Israel is invaded, just before the mark of the beast is implemented in chapter 13.

BABerean2 said:

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13.

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Again, wrong. The highlight of chapter 14 is the mark, following its implementation in chapter 13. It describes the destiny of those who have the mark of God (the sealed Jews) and the destiny of those who have the mark of the beast. It also makes official the wrath which follows.

Also, verse 14 is in contrast to the description of the coming of Christ. It is clear that the one like the son of man in that verse wasn't Jesus but possibly an arch angel. The coming of Christ is described as Jesus being the one instructing his angels to gather the elect.

Matthew 24:31,
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (NIV)

However in verse 15, the reverse is the case. An angel tells the one like the son of man to do the gathering.

15,
Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (NIV)

More so, the one like the son of man had only one crown,

14,
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. (NIV)

Whereas Jesus comes with many crowns,

Revelation 19:11-12,
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. (NIV)

BABerean2 said:

The Second Coming is found when He "comes as a thief" at Armageddon in Revelation 16.

It is found in chapter 19.

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Agreed. But these chapters highlight/focus on different things. The fact that they both coincidentally mention the same event along the way tells you they aren't focusing on the same thing.

The highlight of chapter 16 is the bowls; along the way, it mentions the seventh bowl, which is the event that occurs on the day of His coming just right before He shows up; therefore the chapter also chips in details of Christ showing up along the way to give us a better understanding.

However, the highlight of Chapter 19 is Christ's actual second coming and thus the end of tribulation.

BABerean2 said:

Those who claim the Book of Revelation is in chronological order will never get it right.
There are many passage of scripture which must be ignored to make the viewpoint work.

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On the contrary, you will never get it right if you don't quit focusing on human teaching, yield your understanding to God and allow the Holy Spirit show you scriptures for what it truly is.

parousia70 said:

Couple things here.
1)
So there won’t be a NEW Earth?

2)
In the resurrection, which of Abraham’s descendants who reject the Savior will the Savior reward with the land as an everlasting possession?

All of them, since it’s unconditional?

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Hello, promise land will be a Holy land after the resurrection because the Holy One of Israel will dwell there...HOLY place called Zion...In the Holy City- heavenly Jerusalem...

Psalms 132:13..."For the Lord has chosen Zion, he has desired it for his dwelling, saying "This is my resting place for ever and ever, here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it..

Psalms 87:1-2, He has founded his city on the Holy mountain.
The Lord loves the gates of Zion more than all other dwellings of Jacob..

(2)Romans 9:6-8..."It is not as though God's word had failed. For not All who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Nor because they are his descendants are they All Abraham's children. On the contrary, " It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned..

verse 8, ..In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are Gods children, but it is the children of the PROMISE who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. .