Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

[Messenger 3k]

I disagree, Jesus states some standing in front of him would not die until the kingdom of God arrived.

Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”

So what does that mean as regards the end times?

 

[claninja]

So what does that mean as regards the end times?

The "last days" or "time of the end" of the nation of Israel under the old covenant temple system began around the time of the 1st advent of Christ and found their fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Hebrews 8:13 speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. For if what IS FADING away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

The point being that the old covenant is no longer valid. It was superseded by the new covenant. And if the old covenant is no longer in effect, then neither are the promises of land restoration to the nation of Israel as found in Deuteronomy 30:1-4.

 

[DavidPT]

I disagree, Jesus states some standing in front of him would not die until the kingdom of God arrived.

Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”

Can you show from Scripture when the kingdom of God initially arrived with power, after Jesus had first said that?

 

[Messenger 3k]

The "last days" or "time of the end" of the nation of Israel under the old covenant temple system began around the time of the 1st advent of Christ and found their fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Hebrews 8:13 speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 Now if the ministry of death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at the face of Moses because of its fleeting glory, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry of righteousness! Indeed, what was once glorious has no glory now in comparison to the glory that surpasses it. For if what IS FADING away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which endures!

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

The point being that the old covenant is no longer valid. It was superseded by the new covenant. And if the old covenant is no longer in effect, then neither are the promises of land restoration to the nation of Israel as found in Deuteronomy 30:1-4.

So you're saying the end times are behind us?

The second coming of Christ has come and gone?

 

[claninja]

Can you show from Scripture when the kingdom of God initially arrived with power, after Jesus had first said that?

Satan was to be cast out at Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension.

John 12:31-33 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Jesus' death and resurrection are also when Jesus is given all authority over heaven and earth.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me

With that in mind, we see in revelation, when satan is cast out, NOW the authority of Christ and the power and the kingdom of God have come.

Revelation 12:9-10 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothersb has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

 

[claninja]

So you're saying the end times are behind us?

The second coming of Christ has come and gone?

No, I am not discussing the 2nd coming. The end of the age was Christ's "coming on clouds" judgment on Jerusalem, which is when the obsolete old covenant vanished away.

I believe Christ is coming on the clouds and every eye will see him.

 

[BABerean2]

Because the Jews rejected their Messiah, the establishment of His Kingdom on the earth has been delayed. He is still waiting for them to repent and eventually they will, but they will have to undergo a purging process first during which many of them will die in a time to come called the tribulation which is the 70th week of Daniel. That will not happen until the end of the church age.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 28:28, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

Because the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20, the "church age" cannot come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

Watch the YouTube videos "The New Covenant" by Bob George, and "New Covenant Theology Made Simple" by David H. J. Gay, and “The Prophecy of Daniel 9” by Dr. Kelly Varner.

.

 

[Messenger 3k]

I am not discussing the 2nd coming. The end of the age was Christ's "coming on clouds" judgment on Jerusalem, which is when the obsolete old covenant vanished away.

I believe Christ is coming on the clouds and every eye will see him.

So you've separated the end times from Christ's second coming?

 

[claninja]

So you've separated the end times from Christ's second coming?

If you would like to discuss the 2nd coming from a full preterist perspective, you will need to start a thread in the controversial Christian theology forums. Full preterist discussions are not allowed in eschatology and end times forums, per forum rules.

I am not a full preterist, and As I’ve stated, I believe Christ is coming on the clouds and every eye will see him.

The op is about the restoration of the promise land to the nation of Israel, and if it’s found in the new covenant. So let’s not wander too far from that.

Do you believe the old covenant is still in effect?

 

[Messenger 3k]

If you would like to discuss the 2nd coming from a full preterist perspective, you will need to start a thread in the controversial Christian theology forums. Full preterist discussions are not allowed in eschatology and end times forums, per forum rules.

As I’ve stated, I believe Christ is coming on the clouds and every eye will see him.

The op is about the restoration of the promise land to the nation of Israel, and if it’s found in the new covenant. So let’s not wander too far from that.

Do you believe the old covenant is still in effect?

I don't know about any human-defined perspective because I don't care about any such perspectives. I'm simply addressing what I think is your position on general eschatology.

You claim the end times are behind us but scripture tells us the second coming immediately follows the end times.

Matthew 24:29-30,

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (KJV)

So again I ask, if you say the end times are behind us, then where's Christ's second coming?

 

[claninja]

I don't know about any human-defined perspective because I don't care about any such perspectives. I'm simply addressing what I think is your position on general eschatology.

You claim the end times are behind us but scripture tells us the second coming immediately follows the end times.

Matthew 24:29-30,

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (KJV)

So again I ask, if you say the end times are behind us, then where's Christ's second coming?

Where do those verses specifically mention the words 2nd coming?

They don’t.

The Greek for ‘see’ in “they will ‘see’ the son of man coming on the clouds”, doesn’t always mean see with literal eyes. It is often used for perceiving or understanding spiritual or metaphorical matters

Notice jesus tells the Sanhedrin from NOW ON you will ‘see’ the son of man coming on the clouds. Additionally, notice that both sitting and coming are present tense verbs

Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Matthew 26:64 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:64 - English Standard Version

Did the Sanhedrin literally see Jesus coming on the clouds from now on with their literal eyes? No

The son of man coming on the clouds is symbolic for Jesus being being in the presence of the Father at the time of ascension and being given all all the authority. This is the fulfillment of Daniel 7.

Which direction does the son of man come on the clouds, to earth or heaven?

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14 - Daniel 7:13-14 ESVHey - - Bible Gateway

So, when the sign of the son of man appeared IN HEAVEN, then they would ‘see’ or spiritually understand that the son of man is coming (present tense) on the clouds.

John states, Jesus is coming (PRESENT TENSE VERB) on the clouds and every eye will see (FUTURE TENSE) Him

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
Revelation 1:7 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 1:7 - English Standard Version

Thus my position is that I spiritually understand that the son of man is coming (present tense) on the clouds, as He is in the presence of the Father with all authority, and every eye will see (future tense) Him, as all will stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

This does not preclude a future return of Christ or a future resurrection (I have not resurrected yet, have you?)

As Jesus had prophesied to Jerusalem of their destruction multiple times through his ministry, it is then at its destruction that those who had heard jesus’ Words would spiritually understand that Jesus was who he said he was. They would remember Daniel and spiritual perceive Jesus coming on the clouds, in the presence of the Father with all authority, just as the Sanhedrin ‘from now on’ would see Jesus coming on the clouds.

This is similar to the multiple comings of God in the OT in judgment on the nations

It is at Jerusalem’s destruction, the ‘last days’ of old covenant Israel, that the obsolete old covalent vanished forever. And thus all of conditional promises vanished with it.

Do you believe the old covenant is still in effect?

 

[Messenger 3k]

Where do those verses specifically mention the words 2nd coming?

They don’t.

The Greek for ‘see’ in “they will ‘see’ the son of man coming on the clouds”, doesn’t always mean see with literal eyes. It is often used for perceiving or understanding spiritual or metaphorical matters

Notice jesus tells the Sanhedrin from NOW ON you will ‘see’ the son of man coming on the clouds. Additionally, notice that both sitting and coming are present tense verbs

Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Matthew 26:64 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:64 - English Standard Version

Did the Sanhedrin literally see Jesus coming on the clouds from now on with their literal eyes? No

The son of man coming on the clouds is symbolic for Jesus being being in the presence of the Father at the time of ascension and being given all all the authority. This is the fulfillment of Daniel 7.

Which direction does the son of man come on the clouds, to earth or heaven?

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:13-14 - Daniel 7:13-14 ESVHey - - Bible Gateway

So, when the sign of the son of man appeared IN HEAVEN, then they would ‘see’ or spiritually understand that the son of man is coming (present tense) on the clouds.

John states, Jesus is coming (PRESENT TENSE VERB) on the clouds and every eye will see (FUTURE TENSE) Him

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
Revelation 1:7 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 1:7 - English Standard Version

Thus my position is that I spiritually understand that the son of man is coming (present tense) on the clouds, as He is in the presence of the Father with all authority, and every eye will see (future tense) Him, as all will stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

This does not preclude a future return of Christ or a future resurrection (I have not resurrected yet, have you?)

As Jesus had prophesied to Jerusalem of their destruction multiple times through his ministry, it is then at its destruction that those who had heard jesus’ Words would spiritually understand that Jesus was who he said he was. They would remember Daniel and spiritual perceive Jesus coming on the clouds, in the presence of the Father with all authority, just as the Sanhedrin ‘from now on’ would see Jesus coming on the clouds.

This is similar to the multiple comings of God in the OT in judgment on the nations

It is at Jerusalem’s destruction, the ‘last days’ of old covenant Israel, that the obsolete old covalent vanished forever. And thus all of conditional promises vanished with it.

Do you believe the old covenant is still in effect?

Hahaha.

This is funny.

Okay so we need scriptures to specifically refer to it as the second coming? So you've some how tweaked the second coming to mean the first ascension? So Jesus specifically saying He would come in the clouds somehow meant "He would go up in the clouds"? If we take his coming to "spiritually" and "metaphorically" mean His ascension then what do we call His actual coming? Again, where do you all get these interpretations from?

You do realize that Jesus wasn't specifically referring to the Sanhedrin when He said "you will see the the Son of man coming in the clouds."

It is this wrong interpretation of scriptures with which many are being misled. Jesus wasn't referring to the Sanhedrin, He was referring to Israel. The "you" there stood for Israel as a whole, and "From now on..." simply meant "soon after now".

Matthew 26:64,

“That is what you say!” Jesus answered. “But I tell all of you, ‘Soon you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right side of God All-Powerful and coming on the clouds of heaven.’ ” (CEV)

Going by your logic then we'd be forced to assume from the book of Revelation that the man who pierced Jesus is still alive and will remain alive until Jesus returns.

Revelation 1:7,

Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen. (NIV)

Key phrase: "those who pierced Him"...
Not "the one who pierced Him"...

Referring to the nation of Israel as a whole.

More so the kingdom of God in Mark 9 isn't in reference to His second coming but to the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 9:1,
And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” (NIV)

1 Corinthians 4:20,
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

Luke 17:20-21,
...“The Kingdom of God does not come in such a way as to be seen. No one will say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’; because the Kingdom of God is within you.” (GNT)

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (NIV)

Do not use that scripture to erroneously buttress your faulty idea.

 

[BABerean2]

You do realize that Jesus wasn't specifically referring to the Sanhedrin when He said "you will see the the Son of man coming in the clouds."

The Jewish leadership of the first century will literally see Him when He returns, because they are to be resurrected from the dead for the judgment.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[Messenger 3k]

The Jewish leadership of the first century will literally see Him when He returns, because they are to be resurrected from the dead for the judgment.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

Yes, the Sanhedrin will be resurrected on the day of the great white throne judgement but does Jesus descend on the clouds on that day? His second coming occurs a thousand years before the great white throne Judgement. God alone presides over that judgement because it's a judgement of condemnation and God reserves the power to condemn to Himself. It is a judgement reserved only for unbelievers.

What you most likely do not realize is that there are two judgements. The judgement of 2 Timothy 4:1 is the first judgement; the judgement of the righteous, which Jesus and couple of specially chosen persons preside over. This occurs at His second coming.

John 5:26-27,
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:2,
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you not competent to settle trivial suits? (NET)

Revelation 20:4,
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The second judgement; the great white throne judgement occurs a thousand years later and is reserved specifically for unbelievers who come back to life only to be condemned by God to the second death.

Revelation 20:11-15,
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)

The rest of the scriptures you listed refer to the great white throne Judgement.

 

[BABerean2]

What you most likely do not realize is that there are two judgements. The judgement of 2 Titus 4:1 is the first judgement; the judgement of the righteous, which Jesus and couple of specially chosen persons preside over. This occurs at His second coming.

For some strange reason, you skipped over "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, where we find reward for some and destruction for others. This is the time of the event found in John 5:27-30.

What you most likely do not realize is that because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, the Book of Revelation cannot be in chronological order. Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions given to John on the Island of Patmos.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10, Paul describes Christ returning "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God. When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

How many mortals are found at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

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[Messenger 3k]

For some strange reason, you skipped over "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, where we find reward for some and destruction for others. This is the time of the event found in John 5:27-30.

What you most likely do not realize is that because Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19, the Book of Revelation cannot be in chronological order. Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions given to John on the Island of Patmos.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10, Paul describes Christ returning "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God. When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

How many mortals are found at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

.

Wrong. If anything, you skipped the keyword "dead". It says "at the time of the judgement of the dead". The first judgement is for the living and the dead righteous, which Jesus presides over. Because some Christians will be raptured alive together with others who resurrect from the dead.

2 Timothy 4:1,
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge...(NIV)

However the judgement of Revelation 11 is stated clearly to be for the dead.

Revelation 11:18,

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (KJV)

This is in line with Revelation 20:11-15,
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)

This is because at the time of the great white throne judgement all nations of unbelievers (Gog and Magog) are dead, having been destroyed by fire from heaven after they attempted to attack Zion.

Revelation 20:7-9,
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (KJV)

Context is key. Understand that Revelation 11:18 starts speaking from the perspective of God, first on the subject of unbelievers. What it specifically states "has come" is the wrath. Which is the destruction Jesus brings on the gentile world and it's government at His second coming. It then goes on to say their judgement (great white throne) is at hand but makes it seem closer because it's speaking from the perspective of God. Understand that to us, the day of the Lord is simply the day Jesus returns. But to God, the day of the Lord is the day Jesus returns as well as the entire one thousand years which follow because to God,

...a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 2 Peter 3:8 (NIV)

So while we see the great white throne judgement as being a thousand years away from the coming of Christ, God sees the judgement as having arrived already. So he says their wrath and judgement is at hand. Then He speaks on the subject of the righteous, saying their reward has come. Hence the context in Revelation 11:18.

And I don't know what exactly you're reading into 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10, but the fire being described there is fire from the breath of Jesus' mouth, also known as the "sword of His mouth" with which He destroys the world government headed by the antichrist and the false prophet, at His return.

2 Thessalonians 2:8,
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. (NIV)

In line with Revelation 19:14-15,

The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.(NIV)

I also don't understand what you're getting at with Matthew 25.

It also describes the second coming of Jesus and how the righteous will be gathered away from the unbelievers. Verse 46 says about the unbelievers:"they will go away to eternal punishment", meaning they will go away destined for eternal punishment. It says "they will go away", not "they will be taken away". That tells you they're not being cast into the lake of fire just yet.

 

[DavidPT]

I also don't understand what you're getting at with Matthew 25.

It also describes the second coming of Jesus and how the righteous will be gathered away from the unbelievers. Verse 46 says about the unbelievers:"they will go away to eternal punishment", meaning they will go away destined for eternal punishment. It says "they will go away", not "they will be taken away". That tells you they're not being cast into the lake of fire just yet.

Does this imply they are judged twice then? This judgment then at the GWTJ after the thousand years?

 

[BABerean2]

Revelation 11:18,

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (KJV)

This is in line with Revelation 20:11-15,
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)

You are correct about Revelation 11:18 being in line with Revelation 20:11-15, and when does Revelation 11:18 occur?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible. It is also the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is forever? Is is longer than 1,000 years?

We also have in Revelation 11:18 the "wrath" of God being poured out on the "nations" who are "angry". This would most certainly be judgment of the living.

Read Matthew 25:31-46 and tell us how many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of the passage.
.

 

[DavidPT]

You are correct about Revelation 11:18 being in line with Revelation 20:11-15, and when does Revelation 11:18 occur?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible. It is also the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is forever? Is is longer than 1,000 years?

We also have in Revelation 11:18 the "wrath" of God being poured out on the "nations" who are "angry". This would most certainly be judgment of the living.

Read Matthew 25:31-46 and tell us how many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of the passage.
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Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This has to fit somewhere. And it for sure doesn't fit Revelation 20:11-15.

What I have underlined above, where does that fit within the verses shown below??

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[claninja]

I have been addressing your questions. Would you give me the same courtesy and answer mine?

So you've some how tweaked the second coming to mean the first ascension? So Jesus specifically saying He would come in the clouds somehow meant "He would go up in the clouds"?

Daniel 7 is the only OT passage to mention the "son of man coming on the clouds". This is where Jesus is quoting from in Matthew 24 and Matthew 26.

***When the son of man comes with the clouds of heaven, where does he go, to earth, or the presence of the Father?

Daniel 7:13-14 In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man
coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. And He was given dominion, glory, and kingdom, so that every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Again, where do you all get these interpretations from?

Why would I change the meaning of Daniel 7:13-14 to be about Jesus coming to earth, when it clearly shows him going into the presence of the Ancient of days?

You do realize that Jesus wasn't specifically referring to the Sanhedrin when He said "you will see the the Son of man coming in the clouds."

Jesus is addressing the court, which consisted of Sanhedrin, guards, some viewers, and false witnesses. It doesn't say he addressed "all of Israel". But let's assume he is addressing all of Israel as you put it. What's the difference between Jesus saying to only the court or addressing "all of Israel" that 'FROM NOW ON' they would see the son of man sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds?

That doesn't change the meaning of "from now on". When would Jesus be sitting at the right hand? why would coming on the clouds be different when both sitting and coming are connected by a conjunction to the initial "from now on".

It's not 'FROM NOW ON you will see me sitting at the right hand and then later will see me coming on the clouds.'

It's 'FROM NOW ON you will see me sitting at the right hand AND coming on the clouds.'

and "From now on..." simply meant "soon after now".

The greek word for "now" which is found in the matthew 26:64 passage:

737 árti (an adverb) – now (this instant); here-and-now; exactly now, in the immediate present.

737 /árti ("now") refers to the present as the time to act – i.e. to live "in the now" (= "being alive unto God" now, cf. Ro 6:11).

What is the event that was now happening which would result in Jesus sitting at the right hand and coming on the clouds?

Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?”

More so the kingdom of God in Mark 9 isn't in reference to His second coming but to the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 9:1,
And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” (NIV)

1 Corinthians 4:20,
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

Luke 17:20-21,
...“The Kingdom of God does not come in such a way as to be seen. No one will say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’; because the Kingdom of God is within you.” (GNT)

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (NIV)

Please see post 145 Where I stated the kingdom of God came at Christ's ascension to authority and the casting out of Satan Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Now, if we can return to the OP, Do you believe the old covenant is still in effect?