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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You have finally, unmistakably if unwittingly, acknowledged the reality of genetic ubiquity.

    Some (actually many more than that, but the number is essentially inconsequential) of Abraham's physical bloodline DNA offspring did indeed mix with the peoples of the surrounding Gentile non-Abrahamic bloodline nations.

    And all of their progeny also carried some quantity of Abraham's DNA.

    What then of those progeny? Did they cease to mix with surrounding nations? Or did they repeat the mixing processes, with Abraham's DNA spreading out to and into Gentile bloodlines ever farther and farther from the Abrahamic source?

    And what then of their progeny? Did the mixing processes cease, or did they continue?

    And their progeny?

    And theirs?

    Ad innumeratum.

    The answer is self-evident. The mixing processes never ceased. They continue to this day; and every mixing event carried, and carries, Abrahamic DNA out to and into ever more non-Abrahamic bloodlines across the entire human race.

    Abrahamic DNA has been loose upon the earth for millennia.

    And the end result of all mixing events is Abrahamic (and all other qualifying ancestral) ubiquity.

    Math confirms it.

    Genetic testing confirms it.

    Intuition and logic confirm it.


    Abraham's physical DNA is in all of us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: every faithful Christian person are designated by God to be Israelites. Galatians 6:14-16 The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.

    1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11
    Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9

    2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1
    Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1

    3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12
    Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25

    4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18
    Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9

    5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9
    Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10

    6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2
    Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32

    7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7
    Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24

    8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18
    Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11

    9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8
    Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23

    10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deuteronomy 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10
    The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25
     
  3. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Agreed, jgr.
    But this fact does not preclude God having a people that He has worked amongst thru the ages, who will eventually come to light and be the people He always wanted in His holy Land.
    Great will be the Day and great will be our Blessings! Joel 3:18, Amos 9:13-15, Romans 9:24-26
     
  4. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Again, as the NT is completely absent of any specific and clear text associated with land restoration, one can only form either and argument from ignorance, as in your case, or an argument from silence, as in my case. An argument from ignorance, as in your case, is always a fallacy in informal logic, while an argument from silence, as in my case, is not.

    The red herring definitely sides with you, as you argue from ignorance.

    God never promised the nation of Israel that the present physical land would be their unconditional everlasting inheritance.


    Scripture states God took away the old covenant because of the fault of the people. (hebrews 8:7-8). If the old covenant was still in effect, I would agree with you, but the old covenant is no longer in effect. How can a cyclic event under the old covenant happen if the old covenant no longer exists.

    Christ is the fulfillment of the old covenant. So which things specifically have not yet been fulfilled?

    the promises of the old covenant are not separate from the old covenant.

    God upholding his part of the old covenant agreement was conditional upon Israel's obedience. However, Israel could not obey, so God did away with that covenant. God then superseded the old covenant with new covenant through Christ as the mediator. The new covenant was founded on Better promises.


    The masoretic text contains the "plurality" of descendants in exodus 32:13. The septuagint, on the other other hand, maintains the singular form of offspring in the form of the greek word "spermati" in exodus 32:13.

    The septuagint predates the masoretic text. The septuagint is also quoted more so than the masoretic text in the NT.

    in exodus 32:13, Moses is quoting from the promises made to the fathers (abraham, Isaac, and jacob), and considering Paul states the seed from the original quote is singular, then I would argue the more appropriate interpretation of seed in exodus 32:13 is singular as found in the LXX and not the plural form as found in the masoretic text.

    Upon his death, resurrection, and ascension, Jesus was given all authority, power, and dominion not only in that age, but the age to come (ephesians 1:20-21). Jesus was made Lord (acts 2:36) and the earth is the Lord's (1 corinthians 10:26). Christ inherited the kingdom at his ascension (daniel 7:13-14, Luke 19:12). Thus the earth, which includes the land of Israel, is the Christ's, in fulfillment of the promises of abraham, from his position of authority at the right hand. It is from heaven that Christ's owns the land
    .

    I believe the barn to be heaven. Christ inherited the kingdom at his resurrection and ascension to the Father. Thus, believers inherit the kingdom of heaven at their resurrection and ascension.

    1 corinthians 15:50-51 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    2 timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

    2 corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens

    philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

    the parable of the good seed was addressed to Israel. True Israel consists of Jew and grafted in gentile in Christ.

    Ezekiel 47:21-23 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.’

    again, Jesus draws from OT scripture. Israel is sown, not to be destroyed but to grow, among the nations with the new covenant in Jeremiah 31. how is this different that the parable of the sower and good seed?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  5. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Wrong.
    Romans 9:20 says that God will call us Christians His people, in the very place that He called the ancient Israelites: Not My people.
    Also Revelation 7:9 shows all the Christians in Jerusalem and Rev 12 depicts the scene when Satan comes to the earth and persecutes them.
    He promised it to the Patriarchs and their descendants, who are now every faithful Christian. Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 9:6-8
    Just read all of Jeremiah 31.
    We Christians are the plurality of Abrahams descendants thru Jesus. 1 Peter 2:9-10
    Humans never go to heaven, Jesus said so. John 3:13
    Your 4 quotes all refer to the time after the Millennium, when God and therefore heaven; come to the earth. Revelation 21:1-7
    And we surely did! 2 billion and counting, Christians in the world now. Most are Abrahams descendants by genetics and all by faith.
     
  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    I cannot find any "place" in the verse above.
    What am I missing?

    When a person dies, their body does not go to heaven, but what happens to their immortal soul?


    Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


    The following words of Christ prove that every person has both a body, and a soul.

    Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    .
     
  7. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is because Israel was formed from a bloodline, which you seem to make out as no longer existing. Paul never said that. For as he continued to say, “Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.” (Rom. 11:1) But the sense in which they are not the children of God pertains to their spiritual state.

    Paul still called them the children of promise counted for the seed (Rom. 9:8) but because of their rejection of Christ, will not be able to partake in those promises given to them. In rejecting Christ, they are rejecting the promises. But those who do receive Christ will experience all that pertains to them.
     
  8. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The articles, informative as they may be, are irrelevant to this thread topic and would be more useful on a thread pertaining to the origins of the earth.
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There are two different groups of Israelites in the passage below from Romans chapter 9.

    The children of the flesh are not the children of God in the passage below.


    Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


    Paul also describes two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5.
    During the time of Elijah most of the Israelites worshiped Baal, while a "remnant" of 7,000 remained faithful to God.

    Paul said there was also a faithful remnant during his time.

    .
     
  10. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who doesn't believe that? And what does that have to do with anything? You cannot draw an equivalency between that which is made plain with that which is not.
     
  11. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is only one Israel in the literal sense, meaning the Israel descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The title of Israel placed upon the Church is a figurative one and does not replace the literal. If the literal Israel is not guaranteed preservation and if the promises pertaining to them are not fulfilled, then we as the Church, cannot be confident in the promises given to us.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    After debating zionist futurists for decades, I have found that it is a rather "futile" endeavor, especially concerning the more die hard futurists like Keras and Contenders Edge..
    I have actually been called "anti-jewish" because of my end time views [as I am sure has happened to many Preterists/Amills........

    I now devote my time to Greek studies of the NT, including the LXX to furthur aid Preterism into a much better understanding of fulfilled prophecy, especially the 70ad event of the Olivet Disourse.

    That aside, "Bodies and souls of men" are shown in Revelation 18 concerning the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem..
    [Please visit my "Gehenna" and "Lake of Fire"]

    Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

    Isa 66:24
    “And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me.
    For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
    [Matthew 23:33 Revelation 14:11]

    Mar 9:44
    “where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'


    Matthew 23:33

    "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna

    The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

    Revelation 18:
    11 And the Merchants of the earth land are lamenting<2799> and mourning<3996> over Her, that their cargo no one is buying anymore.
    12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl and fine linen and purple, [Luke 16:19/Revelation 18:16]
    ........13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.

    Revelation 14:11
    And the smoke of the tormenting of them
    is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having/ecousin <2192 Rest/anapausin <372> day and night.......... [Matt 11:29/Hebrew 4:3]

    Revelation 18:4
    And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, 'come forth out of Her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,
    Revelation 19:3
    And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".

     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  13. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Again, what was commanded of Peter concerning the vision he received from God in Acts chapter 11? By what do you think Peter meant when he said, “why tempt ye God to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” (Acts. 15:10) Was it not pertaining to the laws of Moses which included the health edicts? (Acts. 15:5)

    But no mention of the canceling of land restoration for the Jews in any of the passages.
     
  14. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This thread is not about who and who is not of Jewish descent. It is about whether or not the promise of land restoration to the Jews is still in effect.
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    As Promised, Yahuweh restored their land to them..... and even more wonderful is coming !
     
  16. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So you believe Jesus is presently reigning, but his rule of law is not being enforced? Considering there are presently believers all over the world, I disagree.

    This is a subjective argument. There is not one theological doctrine that doesn't rely on a single verse to support their belief. Dispy's are a prime example of that. A literal 1,000 year reign is only found in revelation 20, and yet the rest of scripture is absence of a 1,000 year reign. You are guilty of this as well. So let's stick with objective arguments.

    you again refuse to address colossians 1:23.


    There is a greek word for entire world: kosmos. why not use that instead?

    As a preterist I disagree.

    But you are free to believe that even though Jesus said all these things would be fulfilled within their generation, they did not.



    In post 556 you literally stated:

    Do you know what “imminent” means? It means the Jesus could return at any given time, whether that day be near or far off.

    imminent means near, not far off.


    I am doing neither. For we know that it is not the lunar eclipses, solar eclipses or falling stars that influence events on earth, but God.

    Astrology definition: the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world.

    Astronomy definition: the branch of science which deals with celestial objects, space, and the physical universe as a whole.

    But ancient culture did view heavenly signs as associated with events on earth.

    Showing earthquake trends by decade is not data manipulation. Not from a statistical significance standpoint but purely counting, earthquakes increased from 1990 to 2010, however they decreased from 2010 to 2018. That is not data manipulation.

    In order to show a real increase in earthquakes the data set has to be statistically significant.

    The data from the BGS is incomplete, hence it only goes to 2010. but its data is derived from the USGS and only on earthquakes of magnitude 7 or greater. Both the BGS and USGS agree that earthquakes are not increasing in a statistically significant manner.

    So plain counting is secular now?

    Right, Jesus simply stated there would be earthquakes in various places. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Matthew 24:7 There will be famines and earthquakes in various places
     
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hello claninja.
    Also rumors/tidings of battles
    That was all happening in the 1st century up to 70AD :angel:........

    "Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century concluding in Judea/Jerusalem 70ad

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars


    Matthew 24:6
    “Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
    but not as yet the End<5056>

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:7-8 , nation, kingdom against nation, kingdom; quaking, famines


    Matthew 24:
    7 “For shall be being roused/raised<1453> nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, [*pestilences], and quakings in various places. 8 “Yet all these beginning of sorrows/travails<5604>.”
    Mark 13:
    8 For shall being roused/raised<1453> nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And shall be being quakings various places, and there shall be being famines and disturbances<5016>. These beginning of sorrows/travails<5604>.”
    Luke 21:
    10 Then He said to them, “shall be being roused/riaised<1453> Nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, 11 Great quakings and famines and pestilences<3061> in various places. They shall be being fearful-things<5400> as<5037> also shall be being great signs from heaven.”
    ==========================
    Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD


     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hello claninja. Excellent post!!!!
    Acts 1:6 also promised the Disciples the Kingdom being restored to them.
    Was that from Roman Rule or from the corrupt 1st century Judean rulers that hounded both them and the Disciples [along with Paul]

    Acts 1:6 Restore Kingdom to Israel/10 KINGS One Mind Reve 17

    Interesting verse here:

    Zechariah 8:23

    Thus says Yahweh of Hosts:
    In those days take hold do ten men of all languages of the nations,
    Yea, they have taken hold on the skirt/hem<3671> of a Man, a Judean/[email protected]<3064>, saying:
    'We shall go with Thee, for we hear Elohim with Thee

    They ask this question before He ascends:

    Acts 1:6
    The-ones indeed then coming together, asked Him saying, `Lord!, if in to-the time, this, Thou are restoring the Kingdom to the Israel?'

    In Reve 17, the 10 Kings are shown without a kingdom as yet [coincidental to Acts 1?]

    Revelation 17:
    12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings who any a-Kingdom not-yet received,
    but authority/exousian <1849> as kings, one hour they are receiving with the Beast,
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  19. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “You have finally, unmistakably if unwittingly, acknowledged the reality of genetic ubiquity.”


    No one denies that interbreeding between various different ethnic groups and nationalities takes place. I never denied that. That just proves that we are all descendants of Adam. What is disputed is your claim that we are all descendants of Abraham, specifically of the line of Isaac.


    “And all of their progeny also carried some quantity of Abraham's DNA.

    What then of those progeny? Did they cease to mix with surrounding nations? Or did they repeat the mixing processes, with Abraham's DNA spreading out to and into Gentile bloodlines ever farther and farther from the Abrahamic source?

    And what then of their progeny? Did the mixing processes cease, or did they continue?

    And their progeny?

    And theirs?

    Ad innumeratum.

    The answer is self-evident…. Abraham's physical DNA is in all of us.”


    No, the answer is not as self-evident as you claim. In order to determine whether everyone is a direct descendant of Abraham and more specifically, from the line of Isaac and Jacob, DNA comparisons of people from every tribe, nationality, and ethnicity would have to be made and not just a few individuals from each, but from thousands if not hundreds of thousands or even millions.

    The DNA of every ethnic group has genetic information unique unto itself that biologically distinguishes it from all the rest. And the Jewish bloodline is no exception to this.

    Until such a test can be made, it would be preposterous to think that all of present day humanity descends from the Israelites.
     
  20. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, their land has been restored to them but there are many within the ranks of the body of Christ who insist on denying that.
     
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