Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

[BABerean2]

Hello, yes I agree the heavenly Jerusalem comes to the earth after the Millennium. ..

So the heavenly Jerusalem is Not His home?

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
The "time of the judgment of the dead" and God's "wrath", and "reward" for some, and destruction for others is found in the verse below.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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[pasifika]

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
The "time of the judgment of the dead" and God's "wrath", and "reward" for some, and destruction for others is found in the verse below.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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Hello, I will leave the Book of Revelation whether is or not in chronological order to another thread to discuss it...

 

[Contenders Edge]

"As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”"

"By the way, I’m also a descendant of Nefertiti. And so are you, and everyone else on Earth today. Chang figured that out by expanding his model from living Europeans to living humans, and getting an estimate of 3400 years instead of a thousand for the all-ancestor generation."


Math identifies about 3400 years ago as the time when the phenomenon of ubiquity first appears.

That is about the time when Nefertiti lived.

The ubiquity phenomenon manifests itself for every preceding generation from that time, going back to Adam.

Abraham lived about 3900 years ago, well within the range of ubiquitous manifestation.

He qualifies as one of the ancient "all individuals" who has descendants among present-day individuals.

He is thus an ancestor of all present-day individuals.

We know that Abraham has other descendants beside the Israelites because the Bible tells us so. There is no dispute as far as that goes, but beyond that, what Chang’s work does show is that we did not evolve from apes. We are all descendants of one man and one woman.

However, a great deal of the article in which Chang’s work is cited is more theory and conjecture than fact. Therefore to claim that everyone is a descendant of Abraham is, from a scientific standpoint, just a theory at best. In order to prove whether or not this is the case, DNA samples would have to be gathered from virtually everyone in the world.

In such an unlikely scenario, it is expected that more descendants of Abraham would be revealed, but the vast majority of the world would not show any genetic evidence of having come from that lineage. There are still genes that are prevalent within the descendants of Abraham that do not appear in anyone else.

And even if DNA analysis were to reveal everyone who is of Jewish descent but are not aware of it, that number would still be relatively small in comparison to the Gentile population.

But if it were to be revealed that there was no longer presently any biological difference between Jew and Gentile, the scriptures in which we place our trust would lose all credibility because from Abraham to the book of Revelation, never are Jews and Gentiles said to become one people except in the sense of a spiritual like-mindedness in Christ.

 

[Contenders Edge]

If you think the New Testament writers are contradicting Exodus 32:13, you need to read your entire Bible again.
Do you think Matthew, and Luke, and Jesus, and Paul were all wrong?

Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.'
"

Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:


Mat 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.


Luk 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

In the passage above the risen Savior reveals that the whole Old Testament is about Him.


1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

Are you saying that if I have a Jewish ancestor I need to go to the Middle East and lay claim to a piece of land?
Is that what Paul indicated about genealogies above?


Jesus revealed in Matthew chapter 21 that the "son" is the "heir" to the land.
Do you think He was wrong in that passage?
Do you think that land belongs to those who reject Him as "the chief cornerstone"?

What happens to the land on this earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

.

I never said that the New Testament writers were contradicting Moses, but your Preterism makes it out as though they are which is why I said that if the Preterist position is true, then we have a serious problem in that while Moses refers to the heirs to the promised land as plural, Paul is referring to the heir of the promised land in the singular.

The only way to explain such a contradiction would be if the Jews who receive Christ as their Messiah become fellow heirs to the promised land with Him which ultimately must be the case if all things concerning them are to be fulfilled.


“Luk 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

In the passage above the risen Savior reveals that the whole Old Testament is about Him.”


That is not the issue being debated on this thread.


“1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

Are you saying that if I have a Jewish ancestor I need to go to the Middle East and lay claim to a piece of land?
Is that what Paul indicated about genealogies above?”


If you discovered that you were of Jewish descent, then ultimately, that would be your choice as to whether or not to lay claim what would be historically and by Divine decree rightfully yours. No one can force you to do it.

As for the genealogies to which Paul was referring to, they pertained to things that were of no consequence. That is why he admonished Titus to avoid disputes about them.


“Jesus revealed in Matthew chapter 21 that the "son" is the "heir" to the land.
Do you think He was wrong in that passage?
Do you think that land belongs to those who reject Him as "the chief cornerstone"?


Are there not joint heirs alongside the Son? And do they not include Jews as well?


“What happens to the land on this earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13?”


God has stated that He would not make a full end to the promised-land. (Jer. 4:27)

If He said that He will not make a full end to it, then it will endure, even as the present heavens and earth pass away in the coming fire.

 

[BABerean2]

never are Jews and Gentiles said to become one people except in the sense of a spiritual like-mindedness in Christ.

You must have missed the fact that Rahab, the Canaanite, and Ruth, the Moabite, were both in the bloodline that led to the Messiah.

You are arguing against the Bible, which reveals the Northern Tribes were taken into captivity long before the time of Christ, and mathematics, and modern DNA science, all of which have been proven to be true by thousands of experiments.

You are doing this in a vain attempt to keep your Two Peoples of God doctrine alive.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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[jgr]

We know that Abraham has other descendants beside the Israelites because the Bible tells us so. There is no dispute as far as that goes, but beyond that, what Chang’s work does show is that we did not evolve from apes. We are all descendants of one man and one woman.

However, a great deal of the article in which Chang’s work is cited is more theory and conjecture than fact. Therefore to claim that everyone is a descendant of Abraham is, from a scientific standpoint, just a theory at best. In order to prove whether or not this is the case, DNA samples would have to be gathered from virtually everyone in the world.

In such an unlikely scenario, it is expected that more descendants of Abraham would be revealed, but the vast majority of the world would not show any genetic evidence of having come from that lineage. There are still genes that are prevalent within the descendants of Abraham that do not appear in anyone else.

And even if DNA analysis were to reveal everyone who is of Jewish descent but are not aware of it, that number would still be relatively small in comparison to the Gentile population.

But if it were to be revealed that there was no longer presently any biological difference between Jew and Gentile, the scriptures in which we place our trust would lose all credibility because from Abraham to the book of Revelation, never are Jews and Gentiles said to become one people except in the sense of a spiritual like-mindedness in Christ.

If you can present a mathematical disproof of ubiquity, you're welcome to do so.

No one else has yet done so.

Ubiquity math includes Noah.

Do you think that Noah's DNA is ubiquitous in the human race?

 

[BABerean2]

God has stated that He would not make a full end to the promised-land. (Jer. 4:27)

If He said that He will not make a full end to it, then it will endure, even as the present heavens and earth pass away in the coming fire.

Are you trying to say earthly Jerusalem will survive the destruction of this planet, which is found in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Either Peter was wrong, or you are wrong.

.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Among the things that scripture states vanished with the Old Covenant, the following health edicts were not listed. They are therefore still in full force and effect, and you must still continue to observe them under the New Covenant. Since the New Covenant is an everlasting covenant (Hebrews 13:20), these edicts are also everlasting.

Leviticus 15
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.
3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.
4 Every bed, whereon he lieth that hath the issue, is unclean: and every thing, whereon he sitteth, shall be unclean.
5 And whosoever toucheth his bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
6 And he that sitteth on any thing whereon he sat that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
7 And he that toucheth the flesh of him that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

“Among the things that scripture states vanished with the Old Covenant, the following health edicts were not listed. They are therefore still in full force and effect, and you must still continue to observe them under the New Covenant.”


Actually, they were among those things listed as having been abolished. Read the book of Acts. We no longer have to observe those things in order to receive favor from God. The New Testament scriptures are very clear about what has been carried over from the Old Covenant and what has not been but that does not mean that the health edicts do not still serve purpose in the sense that those who do observe them tend to be healthier.

 

[Contenders Edge]

If you can present a mathematical disproof of ubiquity, you're welcome to do so.

No one else has yet done so.

Ubiquity math includes Noah.

Do you think that Noah's DNA is ubiquitous in the human race?

Yes, Noah is ubiquitous to the human race because we are all descended from him. He, his wife, three sons, and their wives were all that was left of humanity after the flood but over time, the three lineages which branched off from Noah became further and further removed and therefore less ubiquitous. Abraham is listed in scripture as a direct descendant of Shem, but is far removed from the lines of Japheth and Ham.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Are you trying to say earthly Jerusalem will survive the destruction of this planet, which is found in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Either Peter was wrong, or you are wrong.

.

No, your Preterism claims that God is limited in His ability to fulfill His promises.

 

[Contenders Edge]

How many Jews know that .66667 of them will be "wiped out"?

Why aren't dispen preachers proclaiming this loudly and courageously?

“How many Jews know that .66667 of them will be "wiped out"?”


As many as have read that passage.


“Why aren't dispen preachers proclaiming this loudly and courageously?”


Those who teach scripture from beginning to end do so. But in comparison to the stated number of Jews who will inevitably die in the forthcoming tribulation, a higher percentage of Gentiles are destined to die as well.

 

[Contenders Edge]

Scripture?

Just to reiterate, how does God identify "they"?

How do you think He does? Are Jews excluded from that identification?

 

[jgr]

“Among the things that scripture states vanished with the Old Covenant, the following health edicts were not listed. They are therefore still in full force and effect, and you must still continue to observe them under the New Covenant.”


Actually, they were among those things listed as having been abolished. Read the book of Acts. We no longer have to observe those things in order to receive favor from God. The New Testament scriptures are very clear about what has been carried over from the Old Covenant and what has not been but that does not mean that the health edicts do not still serve purpose in the sense that those who do observe them tend to be healthier.

There is nothing in Acts or anywhere else that you can cite which declares the removal of those edicts. Thus, the associated unclean is unclean forevermore.

 

[jgr]

How do you think He does? Are Jews excluded from that identification?

Still no Scripture for "they" joint-heirs.

What identifies a Jew?

 

[Contenders Edge]

You must have missed the fact that Rahab, the Canaanite, and Ruth, the Moabite, were both in the bloodline that led to the Messiah.

You are arguing against the Bible, which reveals the Northern Tribes were taken into captivity long before the time of Christ, and mathematics, and modern DNA science, all of which have been proven to be true by thousands of experiments.

You are doing this in a vain attempt to keep your Two Peoples of God doctrine alive.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


.

“You must have missed the fact that Rahab, the Canaanite, and Ruth, the Moabite, were both in the bloodline that led to the Messiah.”


That blood line still remained predominantly Jewish. By the time of Christ, any Gentile blood would have most likely have been bred out.


“You are arguing against the Bible, which reveals the Northern Tribes were taken into captivity long before the time of Christ…”


Not all the people from the Northern tribes were removed from the land as revealed by the following scriptures. (2 Chr. 10:17, 11:13-14, 15:8-9, 30:5-6, 10-11, 18)


“…and mathematics, and modern DNA science, all of which have been proven to be true by thousands of experiments.”


Which prove that we are descendants of one man and one woman, but which reveal only a small number of people out of various nations to be of Jewish descent who otherwise would not have been aware of their heritage.

You have taken the data of these experiments out of their context in order to keep your Preterism alive.

 

[Contenders Edge]

There is nothing in Acts or anywhere else that you can cite which declares the removal of those edicts. Thus, the associated unclean is unclean forevermore.

Acts chapter 11, and 15:19-20.

 

[jgr]

Those who teach scripture from beginning to end do so.

Cite one who does so loudly and courageously (and repeatedly).

But in comparison to the stated number of Jews who will inevitably die in the forthcoming tribulation, a higher percentage of Gentiles are destined to die as well.

You were referring to Zechariah. Where does he quantify the Gentile death toll?

 

[Contenders Edge]

Still no Scripture for "they" joint-heirs.

What identifies a Jew?

Anyone who descends from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Read more about it here:

Jewish and Christian: Can It Be? • Jews for Jesus

 

[jgr]

Acts chapter 11, and 15:19-20.

Nothing about health edicts there.

 

[jgr]

Yes, Noah is ubiquitous to the human race because we are all descended from him. He, his wife, three sons, and their wives were all that was left of humanity after the flood but over time, the three lineages which branched off from Noah became further and further removed and therefore less ubiquitous. Abraham is listed in scripture as a direct descendant of Shem, but is far removed from the lines of Japheth and Ham.

Awaiting a mathematical disproof of ubiquity.