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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Law of Gravity is derived in part by observing the behavior of objects released at varying elevations “e”.

    The possible number of such elevations is infinite e.g. e, e+1 micron, e+2 microns, e+3 microns, ... infinitude.

    There has never been observation of the behavior of objects released at all possible, and thus infinite numbers of, elevations.

    Thus the Law of Gravity has never been, and never can be, indisputably proven.

    Why then do you and everyone believe the Law of Gravity?
     
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Well one thing we know for sure is , that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve......

    I find it interesting that the phrase usually translated as "son of man" in Ezekiel is actually "son of adam" in the Hebrew [which is how I translated it in my version]

    1Co 15:45
    And so it is written, The first man Adam became a living being.”[fn]
    The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
    1Ti 2:13
    For Adam
    was formed first, then Eve.'

    1Ti 2:14
    And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
    1 Corinthians 15:22
    For just as in the Adam all are dying/apoqnhskousin <599> (5719), so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive. [Genesis 5:5]
    Romans 5:14
    but the death did reign from Adam till Moses
    , even upon those not having sinned in the likeness/omoiwmati <3667> of Adam's transgression,
    who is a type<5179> of him who is coming..
    =======================
    Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

    120 'adam
    from 119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.),,,X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
    H120 אָדָם ('adam), occurs 552 times in 527
    582 'enowsh from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively):-
    H582 אֱנוֹשׁ ('enowsh),occurs 564 times in 530 verses

    Zechariah 13:5 And he says 'Not a-prophet I, man/0376 'iysh tilling ground I,
    that adam/0120 'adam he caused me to acquire from youth of me".

    Eze 2:1
    1 And He said to me, “Son of Adam on your feet, and I will speak to you.” 3 And He said to me: “Son of Adam, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.

    Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

    LUKE 16:5
    29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
    30 "And he said, 'Nay father Abraham! but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets,
    neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead
    .' " (NKJV)
    =================
    adam eve  phone apple cartoon.gif .. adam-and-eves-graves.gif
     
  3. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “If the agreement between the the father and child remained the same (if child cleans room, father gives a cookie), then I would agree with you…And so if the child does not clean his room, the father does not need to give the child a cookie. The child then continues in disobedience and will not clean the room, so the father ends this agreement and promises a new agreement. IF the child cleans the room, the father will give his child a new video game system.

    Now when the child listens and cleans the room under the new promise, does the child receive a video game system or a cookie?”


    Is there any reason why the child cannot be given both? Neither one cancels out the other. So it is with all of the promises of God.


    “…the materialistic blessings of the old covenant are bestowed upon the Jews who come to Christ? That doesn't make sense if the old covenant was made obsolete and taken away.”


    It makes sense if you believe in a God who is faithful in keeping all promises and who brings to fulfillment in the New Covenant those things that were foretold but did not come to pass under the Old Covenant.


    “Scripture is very clear the new covenant is NOT LIKE the old covenant (hebrews 8:9). Scripture is very clear the new covenant has better promises (hebrews 8:6). Scripture is very clear the old covenant was made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

    However, your argument that the old covenant promises are still in effect means the new covenant is like the old covenant. Your argument that the old covenant promises are still in effect means they co exist with better promises and are thus worse promises. Your argument that the old covenant promises are still in effect means the old covenant is till in effect, which goes against scripture.”


    Does the faithful keeping of promises make the New Covenant like the Old Covenant? Does that keep the Old Covenant in effect? Is a promise of God made inferior just because it may not be the same as other promises that He has made?


    “The body of Christ is Israel. It consists of Jews and grafted in gentiles who were made one under Christ. Anyone who is in Christ is Abraham's offspring.”


    The Church is never called Israel in the literal sense, nor is it written that they replace the literal nation of Israel, but the nation of Israel will become a part of the Church. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)


    “I disgaree. Both Hosea and Ezekiel mention the house of Israel and Judah coming together under one leader.”


    I did not deny that Israel is the central focus of the messages of both, but the difference between them is that the message of Hosea is extended to the Gentiles. Ezekiel does not mention them except in the sense of drawing the Jewish people out from among them and back into their homeland.


    But what other nation, other than Israel, has been displaced, scattered, and then again restored?


    Greece.”


    When were the Greeks ever invaded by foreign armies, taken captive, exiled from their homeland and scattered throughout the nations of the world like the Jews had been?
    When were they regathered from the four corners of the earth and brought back to their land?


    “Let's try not to forget that not all Israel is Israel, thus the remnant of Israel is all of Jacob.”


    No such distinction was made at the time that these things were written.


    “It was prophesied that Ephraim (another name for the house of Israel) would become a multitude of gentiles.”


    Some translations such as the Geneva and King James Bible say that a multitude of “nations” not “gentiles” would descend from Ephraim. But what nations would those presently be?


    “We can see it was God who sent the northern kingdom away with a decree of divorce.
    It was the northern kingdom that would no longer be God's people and God no longer their God.”



    But that is not the end of the story. Hosea also foretold that they would be reconciled with God.


    “It is the northern kingdom that mixes with the nations.”


    Which they were already doing before their punishment.


    “Thus by God divorcing the northern kingdom, he scattered them and mixed them with nations. and therefore descendants of the northern kingdom became a multitude of gentiles by the time of the 1st advent of Christ (700 years post Assyrian exile).”


    They did not all become scattered or mixed (2 Chr. 10:17, 11:13-14, 15:8-9, 30:5-6, 10-11, 18)

    and as for those who were scattered throughout the nations, He promised, even in the midst of judgment, to keep them preserved. (Lev. 26-44-45, Deut. 4:31, 37)


    “So you believe true Israel are those who reject Christ?”


    Does a man’s bloodline change upon his receiving or rejecting of Christ? Or is it the inward nature of the man that changes?


    “Again, shadow. Christ became sin, who knew no sin, for us. He became a curse for us.”


    In order for it to be a shadow, Israel would have had to submit themselves to punishment for the sins of others and not their own. What scripture does call as having served as a shadow of the redemption to come was the priestly and animal sacrificial system.


    “Christ redeemed Israel from the curses of the law by becoming a curse (Galatians 3:13). As dueteronomy states, it is after the curses were poured out that Israel would repent and return to the Lord and thus God would restore them from captivity (deuteronomy 30:1-5). That is the shadow.”


    While the cited Deuteronomical passages and all that applied to them could be used as an illustration of our relationship to God (being under the curse of sin and then redeemed through Christ when we call upon Him for salvation), the New Testament writers never called those events a shadow of things to come. Again, it was the priestly and animal sacrificial system that was the shadow of things to come.


    “After Christ became the curse and thus redeemed Israel from the curses of the law (Galatians 3:13), Israel began to repent (acts 2:41), and were set free (Galatians 5:1).”



    But they were not the nation of Israel as a whole. The vast majority of Israel continued to persist in their rejection of Christ which led to their punishment at the hands of the Roman empire. Had that not been the case, the outcome might have been very different.


    “All scripture points to Christ and all promises of God find their yes in Christ. Ezekiel 37 prophesies that the house of Israel and the house of Judah would be gathered together in their land and would become one nation under one king.

    This literally is fulfilled. Israel (descendants of both houses) did return to the land following the Babylonian exile (1 chronicles 9:1-3). God was manifested in the flesh through Christ following the return from exile. Through the ministry, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ to the Father, Israel and the gentiles began to be gathered as one people under one head/shepherd who is Christ (John 11:52, ephesians 2:15).”


    The literal fulfillment requires not only the Return of the King but a people ready to receive Him.
    But it has not yet taken place because of Israel’s rejection of the King when He first came.


    “If Israel obeyed, God would bless. We cannot separate the promises from the covenant.”


    But who is to say that God cannot transfer promises from one Covenant to another if that is what it takes to faithfully fulfill them?


    “Who are God's people? Those obedient to the son or those that reject the son?”


    Again, why do you think that God has retained a Jewish presence in the land of Israel even before their re-establishment as a nation in 1948?


    “I did not misquote. Paul literally states a man IS NOT A JEW BECAUSE HE IS ONE OUTWARDLY. Paul clearly states a man is a jew because HE IS ONE INWARDLY.”


    This is how you misquoted the passage in post 591: “As paul states, a jew is not one outwardly but only if they are circumcised in the heart.


    You made it sound as though there is no such thing as a Jew by blood; Paul never went so far as to say that. He was explaining what defines a Jew in the spiritual sense.


    “1.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are the Bride of the lamb…
    Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.”



    It is interesting that the scripture does not explicitly call the Church the Bride of Christ, but the title is adopted due to the illustration of marriage often being used to describe the relationship that Jesus and the Church have with one another. But we will be dwelling with Christ in the New Jerusalem which is the Bride, thus making us a part of the Bride, thus going to show that the structure, topography, and ecosystem of the New Jerusalem are not all that defines the Bride but what defines the Bride are also who will be dwelling in her and those who go in and out of her.

    Ephesians 5:31-32, according to the Geneva and King James versions of the Bible do not render the two becoming one flesh as referring to Christ and the Church but rather in those two versions it reads, “but I speak concerning Christ and the Church” thus retaining the distinction between marriage between a man and woman and the relationship between Christ and the Church, yet this is best discussed on another thread.


    “2.)Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are built on the foundations of the prophets

    Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.”



    The doctrine of the Gospel has its foundations in the Old Testament scriptures with the Apostles establishing its doctrine and the institution of the Church being built upon Christ, but the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem have only the names of the Apostles written on them. Whereabouts in the city the names of the prophets are written, the scriptures do not tell us.


    “3.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are where God dwells with his people.”


    The Body of Christ is where God dwells through His Holy Spirit. He will dwell physically in the New Jerusalem upon the new earth among all men.


    “4.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple having water flowing from them.”


    Ezekiel’s temple is a building from which Christ will be dwelling and ruling the world during the millennial reign and it is from this building the water flows. In the New Jerusalem, it is the throne of God out of which the water dwells.


    “5.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple have trees growing on either side of the river producing fruit every month and have leaves for healing.”


    In the Jerusalem of Ezekiel, there are many trees. In the New Jerusalem, there is only one.


    “I believe the Body of Christ = New Jerusalem = Ezekiel temple.”


    We will dwell and move in and out of a city, but we are not a city nor are we a building. Christ dwells in us through the Holy Spirit, but His physical dwelling on the earth will be in the temple described by Ezekiel.
     
  4. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because we witness and feel its effects. Not so with your claim of present day humanity being descended from Abraham.
     
  5. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Jewish state of Israel is destined to survive but the scripture makes it clear that only they who call upon the Messiah will be of whom the nation consists in the end. (Rom. 9:27) In order for the Jewish state to be a false Israel, all of its citizens would have to be impersonating those descended from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Such a notion would be ridiculous.

    There is only one group of "fake people" in Israel and that is the so-called "Palestinians. But as for them and the rapture, both discussions would be off-topic and best conducted on threads pertaining to such.
     
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You have no proof of the effects of an object released at a previously-untested elevation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  7. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “As of when did "people in the world" not include "humanity in general"?




    The article stated “a number of people in the world today” had “the ‘Abrahamic Genetic Signature’”, not all of the people in the in the world.





    “Both Isaac and Ishmael are encompassed within the ubiquity range covering from about 1400 BCE back.”





    But both still retained their distinctive lineages and identities and they still do today.




    This article dates back over ten years ago when DNA testing was considerably less refined and extensive than it is today. Yet, ubiquity was already being recognized.



    There is little doubt that the author's estimate of hundreds of millions ten years ago would be billions today.



    These numbers of “hundreds of millions” are just estimates and not actual proof and it is highly unlikely that the number would rise to billions in ten years. There is no telling as to what rate the Abrahamic gene is being passed on. You are relying more on theory and conjecture than proven fact and it would be a far-fetched scenario to suggest that every mixing event that has taken place is still taking place.
     
  8. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What does it matter when the effects witnessed are proof enough that gravity exists?
     
  9. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Chang's article is focused on the mitochondrial gene that is traced back to a single woman; a gene that all people have in common and Ralph and Coop's article is focused on European lineages. Not Mid-Eastern. If either article had mentioned Mid-East lineages blending with other lineages, then they might be relevant to the topic of this thread.
     
  10. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You've apparently been missing the point entirely, because ubiquity means the diametric opposite and converse of "no longer existing".

    It means "existing everywhere".


    But it does not exist everywhere in every person.


    Galatians 4

    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    Paul ascribes the expression to the Galatian Church, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles without ethnic distinction, and representative of the NT Church to which all faithful and obedient believers belonged and belong.”


    Paul was speaking in the spiritual sense in that passages whereas in Romans 9:8, he was referring to the bloodline.
     
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    More carnal zionist futurist poppycock

    The1st century Temple and City are shown in Revelation......just ask any Jew today........

    2Co 5:1
    For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    =========================
    Acts 7
    44"Our fathers had the tabernacle of the testimony in the wilderness, even as he who spoke to Moses commanded him to make it according to the pattern that he had seen; 45which also our fathers, in their turn, brought in with Joshua when they entered into the possession of the nations, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers, to the days of David, 46who found favor in the sight of God, and asked to find a habitation for the God of Jacob. 47But Solomon built him a house. 48However, the Most High doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says,

    49'heaven is my throne, and the earth a footstool for my feet. What kind of house will you build me?' says the Lord; 'or what is the place of my rest?
    50Didn't my hand make all these things?'
    51"You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52Which of the prophets didn't your fathers persecute? They killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One, of whom you have now become betrayers and murderers. 53You received the law as it was ordained by angels, and didn't keep it!"

    GEHENNA<G1067> "Lake of Fire" "Valley of Hinnon/Slaughter" 1st century Judea/Jerusalem

    Matthew 23:33
    "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna

    James 5:6
    Ye condemn, ye Murder the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

    Revelation 9:21
    And not they reform out of their Murders, nor out from their sorceries,...........

    Reve 19:3 "The smoke of the tormenting them/Her ascending Ages of the Ages"


    Revelation 14:11
    And the smoke of the tormenting of them
    is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having/ecousin <2192> (5719) Rest/anapausin <372> day and night [Matt 11:29/Hebrew 4:3]
     
  12. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is so carnal about approaching scripture at face value, receiving its full counsel, rendering each passage within its proper context, and without imposing any presuppositions upon what is being read? As for some of the passages you cite, (Rev. 9:21, 19:3, 14:11) you are attempting to apply them to a people that they either do not specifically address or do not address at all.

    Only Christian Jews will believe anything written in the book of Revelation and so, they would be the ones to ask whether or not the temple John was commanded to measure in the book of Revelation was the first century temple or another temple to come. You might get opinions adhering to both Preterist and Pre-mil/futurist positions, but so far, I have found Christian Jews typically holding to a Pre-mil/futurist position.
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hell CE.
    I am Partial Preterist/Amill. I view much of the Olivet Disourse and much of Revelation as fulfilled in the 1st century, more specifically, 70ad.................
    An interesting thread on PP/Amill/Premill.........It appears there is really not much difference between those except perhaps semantics/interpretations concerning the Hebrew symbology in both the Olivet Discourse and Revelation........
    Amill or Premill works that respond to partial preterism?
    A recommended thread:

    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

    THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

    One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
    That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

    95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
    That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!
    ==================================================
    Here are some of the ones I have come up with. Please feel free to add or comment on them.

    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Books in Daniel Daniel 7:9 and 11:10.
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Cried and joy Temple/City: Ezra 3:12,13 and Reve 18:18, 19:4
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Ear to hear: Isaiah 6:9,10 and Matt 13:15, Reve 2,3,13
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Holy Holy Holy Isaiah 6:6 and Revelation 4:8
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Jericho, Priest and Trumpets: Joshua 6:4, Hebrews 11:30, Matt 24:31, Reve 8:6
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Lift hands to heaven and swore..: Daniel 2:7 and Reve 10:5
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Light Revelation to Israel and Nations: Isaiah 9:2, Luke 2:32, Reve 1:1
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Moses and Elijah, fire falling, as is also seen in Revelation.
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Moses and Elijah
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Mountain of fire cast into Sea
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Pierced: Zech 12:10 and Reve 1:7
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Sacrifice/Supper of God: Ezek 39:17 and Reve 19:17
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Sanctuary/Tabernacle filled with smoke
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Silence/Hush: Zech 1:7, 2:13 and Reve 8:1
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Sodom and Egypt: Matt 2:15, Reve 11:8
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Song of Moses: Exodus 15:1 and Revelation 15:3
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Spirit lifting, taking Ezekiel and John
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Stars 7
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Tree of Life and Garden: Genesis 3:24 and Reve 2:7
    Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
    Whip.........Nahum 3:2, John 2:15,
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Exactly; in the holy Land, where the faithful Christians will all live as the children of God.

    Gentiles, who can also be the hidden ten tribes of Israel, John 7:35, did receive the offer of Salvation thru Jesus in the first century, His mission was successful. Matthew 15:24 But it was only within the last 200 years, since the Bible has become available to all, that there is now a 'vast multitude from every tribe, race nation and language' as John sees them in the holy Land, waving palm branches and shouting praises to Jesus. Revelation 7:9
    The Galatian people were Israelites from the Northern tribes. People that Paul related to and could speak their language.
    In order for God to fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs, spiritually and literally, the majority of the Christians who will go to live in all of the holy Land, will be members of one or other of the twelve tribes of Israel.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They were Gentile converts (Galatians 4:8,9), plus the notorious Judaizers.
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The only way you can make your statement above work is to ignore the passages found below. Therefore, it is a doctrine of ignorance.


    Either Peter was confused on the Day of Pentecost, or you are confused, in the passage below.

    Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    Who would "all the house of Israel" be in the passage above?



    Either the half brother of Jesus is confused in the passage below, or you are confused.

    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
    Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
    Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

    Who would "the twelve tribes" be in James 1:1, who would be his "brethren" in the "faith"?


    You also listed Romans 11:26, but ignored Romans 11:1-5 where Paul reveals two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and one not. There is a remnant in Romans 9:27, and also in Romans 11:5.

    Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
    Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  17. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Again, as the NT is completely absent of any specific and clear text associated with land restoration, one can only form either and argument from ignorance, as in your case, or an argument from silence, as in my case. An argument from ignorance, as in your case, is always a fallacy in informal logic, while an argument from silence, as in my case, is not.
    The red herring definitely sides with you, as you argue from ignorance.”



    You still have not been able to prove that my argument is from ignorance. In order to do that, you would have to prove that Paul was not drawing from Old Testament scriptures when he said that all Israel would eventually be saved and that their fullness upon being reconciled to God would not include permanent land restoration.


    “God never promised the nation of Israel that the present physical land would be their unconditional everlasting inheritance.”


    He never said that they would be bereft of it forever either. In fact it is foretold that the day is coming in which they will be brought back to the land to remain there permanently. (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15) Explain that.


    “How can a cyclic event under the old covenant happen if the old covenant no longer exists.”


    As long as evil continues to exist and reaches a certain measure, God has to punish it. His nature does not change with the Covenants. Therefore, until He returns, we can only expect that there will be times when Israel will be subject to correction for the purpose of purging from them all evil and ungodliness.


    “Christ is the fulfillment of the old covenant. So which things specifically have not yet been fulfilled?”



    1. The book of Revelation has not yet come to pass.

    2. Israel has not yet repented and received Him as their Messiah. (Zech. 12-14, Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

    3. Christ has not yet returned to rule and reign over the entire earth. (Rev. 20)

    4. The temple described in Ezekiel from which Christ is to rule for a thousand years has not yet manifested itself. (Ezek. 40-47)

    5. Israel is not the capital and exalted nation of the world that it is destined to be under Christ. (Zech. 8:20-23)

    6. We have not yet seen such peace on the earth under which even the animals are not killing one another. (Is. 11:6)

    7. Satan has not yet suffered his final defeat.


    The list goes on.


    “the promises of the old covenant are not separate from the old covenant.

    God upholding his part of the old covenant agreement was conditional upon Israel's obedience. However, Israel could not obey, so God did away with that covenant. God then superseded the old covenant with new covenant through Christ as the mediator. The new covenant was founded on Better promises.”



    The book of Hebrews made it clear that the Old Covenant was never intended to be permanent to begin with. The New Covenant was always in mind from the very beginning. And again, who is to say that God cannot transfer promises from one Covenant to another if that is what it takes to fulfill them alongside the better promises tied to the New Covenant?

    Does the faithfulness of God in keeping His promises cease with the Old Covenant?


    “The masoretic text contains the "plurality" of descendants in exodus 32:13. The septuagint, on the other other hand, maintains the singular form of offspring in the form of the greek word "spermati" in exodus 32:13.

    The septuagint predates the masoretic text. The septuagint is also quoted more so than the masoretic text in the NT.

    in exodus 32:13, Moses is quoting from the promises made to the fathers (abraham, Isaac, and jacob), and considering Paul states the seed from the original quote is singular, then I would argue the more appropriate interpretation of seed in exodus 32:13 is singular as found in the LXX and not the plural form as found in the masoretic text.”



    The word for seed in the Greek is actually called “Sperma” and the manner in which it is defined is not confined to the singular but can also mean seed in the plural as well and though the Septuagint may predate the Masoretic text, the language in which the Masoretic text is written still predates the Septuagint. Which language are you going to trust more for the most reliable and accurate translation of scripture? The primary language in which it was originally written, or a secondary language?


    “Upon his death, resurrection, and ascension, Jesus was given all authority, power, and dominion not only in that age, but the age to come (ephesians 1:20-21). Jesus was made Lord (acts 2:36) and the earth is the Lord's (1 corinthians 10:26). Christ inherited the kingdom at his ascension (daniel 7:13-14, Luke 19:12). Thus the earth, which includes the land of Israel, is the Christ's, in fulfillment of the promises of abraham, from his position of authority at the right hand. It is from heaven that Christ's owns the land
    .”


    That promise will be made manifest when Christ returns from Heaven and rules from Jerusalem in the land of Israel


    “I believe the barn to be heaven. Christ inherited the kingdom at his resurrection and ascension to the Father. Thus, believers inherit the kingdom of heaven at their resurrection and ascension.”


    You got that much right.


    “the parable of the good seed was addressed to Israel. True Israel consists of Jew and grafted in gentile in Christ…again, Jesus draws from OT scripture. Israel is sown, not to be destroyed but to grow, among the nations with the new covenant in Jeremiah 31. how is this different that the parable of the sower and good seed?”


    The parable of the good seed was told to a Jewish audience but is still a parable concerning the entire world and not just Israel. Again, there is no evidence that Jesus was drawing from an Old Testament passage. You are assuming this to be the case because of similar analogies used in the passages you cited from the book of Jeremiah.

    Just because certain analogies are used in different passages of the scriptures, that does not mean that they are referring to the same thing. There is nothing in Jeremiah that states that Israel would be sown among the nations but Jer. 31:27 clearly states that the seed of both man and beast will be sown in the house of Judah and Israel; in their homeland.
     
  18. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Either Peter was confused on the Day of Pentecost, or you are confused, in the passage below.

    Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    Who would "all the house of Israel" be in the passage above?”


    Just because Peter was addressing the entire house of Israel does not mean they all accepted the Gospel. Three thousand souls is not the entire house of Israel, but a small fraction of it. If the greater part of Israel had repented at that time, they would not have faced punishment at the hands of the Romans.


    “Either the half brother of Jesus is confused in the passage below, or you are confused.

    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
    Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
    Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

    Who would "the twelve tribes" be in James 1:1, who would be his "brethren" in the "faith"?”


    No one is denying that these were brethren in the faith but they nevertheless, as the passage makes plain, retained their tribal identities.


    “You also listed Romans 11:26, but ignored Romans 11:1-5 where Paul reveals two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and one not. There is a remnant in Romans 9:27, and also in Romans 11:5.”
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do genes exist outside of persons?

    He was referring to the children of promise, Jewish believers in Christ in the passage, with Isaac as the model. (Romans 9:7)

    The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had nothing to do with genetics. Rather, Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability. (Hebrews 11:11-12) Obedience, because Abraham was willing to obey God's instructions to sacrifice Isaac, in apparent violation of His own promise. Yet in further faith he obeyed to the point where God's intervention was elicited. (Hebrews 11:17-19). God's response was to honor all three of them by choosing Isaac's lineage to be that through which Messiah would come.

    Hebrews 11
    11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
    12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
    18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
    19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

    We then further see Isaac, the "child of promise", continue his parents' spiritual legacy to also become a spiritual progenitor of those of faith and obedience in and to Christ -- His Church -- His "children of promise" heirs:

    Romans 9:7-8
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
    Galatians 4:28
    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    Galatians 3:29
    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    Romans 8:16-17
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

    Thus Isaac, in the full tradition of his parents Abraham and Sarah, continued their legacies of faith and obedience, to the benefit of us all who follow in their spiritual footsteps.
     
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Precisely. You extrapolate the effects already witnessed to the effects not yet witnessed, and conclude that there is sufficient evidence, without the need for further testing, that the effects not yet witnessed will be the same as the effects already witnessed.

    Same with ubiquity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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