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Featured Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 19, 2019.

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  1. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Jesus is presently reigning from the throne (heaven).”


    But His rule of law is not being presently enforced as it will be when He brings His Kingship to earth.


    “Right, your avoiding my argument and switching to a different book and chapter. A common tactic on these forums. Please address colossians 1:23 which specifically addresses the GOSPEL being proclaimed to all creation under heaven. Romans 1:18-22 does not have to do with the gospel being preached but rather it has to do with the nations recognizing the one true God via creation. There is a difference between recognizing that there is God (romans 1:18-22) and the gospel being proclaimed (colossians 1:23).”


    It is called seeking the full counsel of scripture on any given topic. A common tactic of proponents of false doctrine is to build their case on a few passages of scripture while dismissing and ignoring everything else the scripture has to say on the topic at hand that is being taught.


    “You are using another fallacy in informal logic: Appealing to Authority. Please show where God defines oikumene as the "entire world" and not the "inhabited land of the roman empire" in order to substantiate your claim. I could say that God created the definition of oikumene to be "inhabited land of the roman empire" and thus that is why it is defined that way.”


    Strong’s definition of oikoumene: “land, i.e. (terrene part of the) globe; spec. the Rom. Empire—earth, world.”


    While Strong’s definition does apply this definitions specifically to the Roman empire, it also can apply to lands and peoples outside of the Roman empire. If James Strong, however did intend to define the word oikoumene to apply only to the Roman empire, then that would only go to show that his work is not entirely flawless.


    “see post 559.”


    I already addressed post 559 and it does not address the citation to which you have applied it.


    “But within their generation.”


    Yet as far as history is concerned, not everything Christ said would come to pass did come to pass in that generation which is why we appeal to John 21:21-23, which Preterism has caused you to dismiss, and causing its adherents to believe that Christ is limited in His power to fulfill His Words.


    “I don't think you know what imminent means. It does not mean "far off".


    From the perspective of man and how man defines the term, I would agree and I never specifically stated that it meant “far off” but instead defined it as “any time” and the Apostle Peter clearly states that what may be declared imminent from God’s point of view may not seem so from our perspective (2 Pet. 3:9) which is why we are always to treat the return of Christ as an imminent event as it could just as easily take place in one generation as it could the next.


    “…ancient peoples did pay attention to astronomical phenomena. In fact, its how the magi found Jesus in the manger.”


    Again, you seem to be equating the occult practice of astrology to the scientific practice of astronomy. The astronomical phenomena involving the star over Bethlehem was no ordinary astronomical phenomena. It was something that had never happened before and yet it remained over the place where Jesus was to be born long enough for the magi to find Him.


    “which data point did I specifically manipulate?


    When you do the following:


    “In 1990 there were 1744
    In 2000 there were 1501
    In 2010 there were 2383
    In 2017 there were 1566
    In 2018 there were 1808”




    Cutting out years listed in the data, is data manipulation. In this case, you tried to make it appear to show something that it did not. I would not condone such a tactic even from those defending a pre-millenial or futurist viewpoint. When I read that data for myself, I took every single year into account before forming my conclusion.

    Data can be fluctuative, but it will show an overall increase and decrease. In this case, the data showed an overall increase in earthquakes from 1990 to now.


    From the british geological survey: Is Earthquake Activity Increasing?



    The data from the British Geological survey only spans from 1990 to 2010 and therefore does not give as full of a picture as the U.S. Geological Survey. Not to mention, the data of both conflict with one another.


    "Recent devastating earthquakes in Haiti, Chile and China, as well as magnitude 7 plus earthquakes in Indonesia and California, might give the impression that earthquake activity is increasing. In fact, a quick look at earthquake statistics over the last twenty years shows that this is not the case. On average there are about fifteen earthquakes every year with a magnitude of 7 or greater. As with any quasi-random phenomena, the number of earthquakes each year varies slightly from this average, but in general, there are no dramatic variations. So far this year, there have been six magnitude 7+ earthquakes, in keeping with the annual rate."


    From The United States Geological Survey: Why are we having so many earthquakes? Has naturally occurring earthquake activity been increasing? Does this mean a big one is going to hit? OR We haven't had any earthquakes in a long time; does this mean that the pressure is building up for a big one?


    These are secular institutions and therefore naturally, they will attempt to interpret the data from a secular perspective and not from a biblical perspective.


    "The ComCat earthquake catalog contains an increasing number of earthquakes in recent years not because there are more earthquakes, but because there are more seismic instruments and they are able to record more earthquakes."


    Most of the so-called earthquakes that these seismic instruments detect go unnoticed, but we know that this was not what Jesus was talking about when He said that there would be earthquakes in various places. He was talking about earthquakes that would be noticeable and cause destruction.
     
  2. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Many individuals, yes, but Abraham is not among those around whom the article centers.
     
  3. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Zechariah says that the third who goes through the refining fire will survive and call upon the name of the Lord. (Zech. 13:9) Not one among that third part will be lost. Zephaniah pertains to a time in the history of Israel that has already past and the parable in Luke 19 does not necessarily strictly pertain to the people of Israel since it begins with the illustration of a nobleman going to a far country to build up a kingdom for himself, but study of that parable is best left for another thread.
     
  4. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”


    What does that have to do with anything since I am not denying that Jesus is the Christ? That is not the issue being debated.


    “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”



    But Moses referred to the seed as being plural. (Ex. 32:13) Unless the promise to Christ the seed is extended to the Israelites who receive Him, we have a serious problem.



    “Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”



    We’ve already gone over this. The city prepared for us will be made manifest when the new heavens and the new earth are created.
     
  5. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You make a valid point there.
     
  6. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How many Jews risked their lives to re-establish the nation of Israel in their homeland? How many emigrated to the land knowing the dangers and the risks believing that the rewards to be received would outweigh any sacrifices required of them? How many Jews continue to move to Israel fully aware of the dangers and difficulties facing them?
     
  7. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “God does not regather anyone to anywhere under a vanished covenant.

    Nor was it ever "their land".

    Israel was only its steward. It belonged to the Father.”



    Among the things that scripture states vanished with the Old Covenant, the promise of land restoration was not listed and God never promised everlasting stewardship in the promised land to any other people other than Israel. (Ex. 32:13, Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15)


    “Israel is not the Heir.”


    They are still destined to be a joint-heir.
     
  8. pasifika

    pasifika Active Member

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    Hello, yes the Son is the heir to promise land it doesn't mean He is the Not only ONE who will dwell in that land as God made that promises to Abraham and to his Seed saying....to Abraham ; Genesis 12:3..."I will bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse, and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you...

    Genesis 22:18..."and through your Seed All nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me"

    Galatians 3:29..." If you are belong to Christ, then YOU ARE Abraham’s seed, and Heirs according to the Promise..

    Clearly Paul speaking to Gentiles, indicating just as the seed of Abraham is the heir of the promises which God spoke to Abraham they(Gentiles ) will also be heirs if they belong to Him (Christ )....Therefore the Promise of the Land and it's location hasn't changed...

    The land where God spoke to Abraham in Genesis 12, is still in that SAME LOCATION..

    Heavenly Jerusalem is Not a New Promise land...it is a CITY....

    I will give you a clue!!!!!

    .Every Nation must have a City....So the City of God will be the City of the Promise land... (Holy City in the Holy Land)....

    Hebrews 11:9-10, said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob live in the promise land But they are looking forward to "The City" with foundations, whose architect and builders is God...

    This the Holy City describe by John in Revelation 21:2...coming Down Out of Heaven....

    The city is coming down???

    The question is...where is that city coming down to????
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”"

    "By the way, I’m also a descendant of Nefertiti. And so are you, and everyone else on Earth today. Chang figured that out by expanding his model from living Europeans to living humans, and getting an estimate of 3400 years instead of a thousand for the all-ancestor generation."


    Math identifies about 3400 years ago as the time when the phenomenon of ubiquity first appears.

    That is about the time when Nefertiti lived.

    The ubiquity phenomenon manifests itself for every preceding generation from that time, going back to Adam.

    Abraham lived about 3900 years ago, well within the range of ubiquitous manifestation.

    He qualifies as one of the ancient "all individuals" who has descendants among present-day individuals.

    He is thus an ancestor of all present-day individuals.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    When Paul said in Galatians 3:16 that the promise made to Abraham was made only to Christ, do you think Paul was confused?

    You left out the verses which prove Paul was not just talking to Gentiles in Galatians chapter 3.

    Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Paul had to correct Peter about treating the Gentile believers differently than the Israelite believers.
    Some of us are still trying to dived the Church today.
    On the Day of Pentecost about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.
    The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church", as some attempt to imply.



    If you think New Jerusalem is coming down to this rotten, sin-cursed world you better read the passage below.


    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
    2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
    2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
    2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

    .
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    If you think the New Testament writers are contradicting Exodus 32:13, you need to read your entire Bible again.
    Do you think Matthew, and Luke, and Jesus, and Paul were all wrong?


    Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.'
    "

    Mat 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:


    Mat 3:9 and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.


    Luk 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
    Luk 24:26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
    Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

    In the passage above the risen Savior reveals that the whole Old Testament is about Him.


    1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

    Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

    Are you saying that if I have a Jewish ancestor I need to go to the Middle East and lay claim to a piece of land?
    Is that what Paul indicated about genealogies above?



    Jesus revealed in Matthew chapter 21 that the "son" is the "heir" to the land.
    Do you think He was wrong in that passage?
    Do you think that land belongs to those who reject Him as "the chief cornerstone"?


    What happens to the land on this earth in 2 Peter 3:10-13?


    .
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How many Jews know that .66667 of them will be "wiped out"?

    Why aren't dispen preachers proclaiming this loudly and courageously?
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Scripture?

    Just to reiterate, how does God identify "they"?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  14. pasifika

    pasifika Active Member

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    Hello, Galatians 3:16..is promises (plural)...so what are those promises that God spoke to Abraham and to his Seed (Christ)?, I will write some of those promises which God said...

    Some of the Promises God made.....

    Genesis 12:1-8...
    • Land
    • Great Nation
    • Great Name and blessings
    • People...Genesis 15:5 offspring with cannot be counted like stars in the sky..
    • Everlasting. ..(Righteousness ) etc...
    So if Paul was Not only speaking to Gentiles but to everyone then those Promises as I mentioned some above are for them as well, as you mentioned in Galatians 3:28...."There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free nor is there male or female, for you are All One in Christ Jesus..

    So if you claim that the land (land of Israel ) is Not part of the New Testament then the question is;

    "What are the promises God spoke to Abraham and to his Seed mentioned in Galatians 3:16??..

    and if Paul is speaking to everyone who hear the message what do you think the point of Galatians 3:16 to them?

    *Heavenly Jerusalem the Holy City ("Dwelling Place of God")

    In Revelation 21:2-3..."I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,

    " Look! God's dwelling Place is now among the people, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God"...

    Psalm 132:13,14...
    • For the Lord has chosen ZION, He has desired it for His dwelling, saying, " This is my resting place for ever and ever; here i will sit enthroned, for I have desired it...
    Psalm 87:2
    • The Lord loves the gate of ZION more than all other dwellings of Jacob
    Ezekiel 37:25-28

    They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived.
    They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever..

    Verse 27..." My dwelling Place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people...

    Gods dwelling Place or New Jerusalem in Rev 21:2 will be coming down to ZION...according to those verses above a place in the land God gave to Jacob (same land God gave to Abraham and Isaac....Genesis 35:12)...The Promise land...









     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Among the things that scripture states vanished with the Old Covenant, the following health edicts were not listed. They are therefore still in full force and effect, and you must still continue to observe them under the New Covenant. Since the New Covenant is an everlasting covenant (Hebrews 13:20), these edicts are also everlasting.

    Leviticus 15
    1 And the Lord spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying,
    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.
    3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.
    4 Every bed, whereon he lieth that hath the issue, is unclean: and every thing, whereon he sitteth, shall be unclean.
    5 And whosoever toucheth his bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
    6 And he that sitteth on any thing whereon he sat that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
    7 And he that toucheth the flesh of him that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The woman at the well agrees with you about earthly Jerusalem.
    Did you miss the part where Jesus corrected her in the passage below?


    Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
    Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
    Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


    Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, this rotten, sin-cursed world is going to burn up, and be "dissolved", on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
    Why are you trying to ignore this passage?

    .
     
  17. One Son

    One Son New Member Supporter

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    Good post,

    Heb.12:22(YLT) ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers, 23to the company and assembly of the first-born in heaven enrolled, and to God the judge of all, and to spirits of righteous men made perfect,



    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17)
     
  18. pasifika

    pasifika Active Member

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    Hello, if you read Galatians 4:24-28...gives you an idea of the Old covenant and New Covenant in respect to the Two Jerusalem:

    (1) The old covenant in Sinai bears the children are to be slaves - This corresponds to the present city Jerusalem...(Jerusalem in Israel now)

    (2)New Covenant bears the children who are to be free - Galatians 4:26...."But Jerusalem that is above (heavenly Jerusalem ) is free and she is our mother....

    So you can see the present city Jerusalem (the one in Israel now) is Not the Jerusalem describe in Revelation 21:2...But...A heavenly Jerusalem (city prepared by God in heaven)....Hebrews 11:16..... Not the one here on earth but the one in heaven...
     
  19. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The new Jerusalem comes to the earth AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7 Nowhere does the Bible prophets say humans will inhabit it before then.

    The Lord says He has chosen earthly Jerusalem as His permanent home. Psalms 87:1-2, Isaiah 33:20-21, Jeremiah 33:39-40, +
    Which He does not occupy for now, but is soon to Return to it and reign the world for 1000 years.
     
  20. pasifika

    pasifika Active Member

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    Hello, yes I agree the heavenly Jerusalem comes to the earth after the Millennium. ..

    So the heavenly Jerusalem is Not His home?
     
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