Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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Contenders Edge

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That is not my job to make up your mind. It is the job of the Holy Spirit. I am only a witness who has testified what Scripture declares as I did previously.


I agree with you in that it is only the Holy Spirit who can change minds. As far as being a witness who testifies what the scriptures declare, we both are making that claim.
 
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GospelS

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Did God said that the signs in the sun, moon and stars are about Israel become a nation? No!

You need to find out what the sun, moon and stars represent as God DEFINED it in His Word. Do you know how to look for it instead of making speculation about Israel coming back to their land.

The signs in the sun, moon and stars and Israel becoming a nation are two different things. Both are end time signs.

I think that you got wrong Israel! It is Covenant Israel - making up of all people in Christ from the Old and New Testament. Not national Israel. Selah!

You can read in Romans 11 with regards to which Israel it is referring to, natural Israel (national/literal) or spiritual Israel (covenant/symbolic).

1. ......I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
11. .....so as to make Israel jealous.
14. ...... in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous
21 .......For if God did not spare the natural branches
25.....a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Luck has nothing to do with it. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and Spirit of God, so study thyself approved before God to find the Truth on this matter.

Ok, not good luck. God bless with fear, wisdom, and Spirit.
 
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jgr

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The signs in the sun, moon and stars and Israel becoming a nation are two different things. Both are end time signs.



You can read in Romans 11 with regards to which Israel it is referring to, natural Israel (national/literal) or spiritual Israel (covenant/symbolic).

1. ......I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
11. .....so as to make Israel jealous.
14. ...... in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous
21 .......For if God did not spare the natural branches
25.....a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.



Ok, not good luck. God bless with fear, wisdom, and Spirit.

What characteristics does God require to qualify for His Israel?
  1. Jewish DNA
  2. Jewish religion
  3. Jewish culture
  4. Faith and obedience in and to His Son
 
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GospelS

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What characteristics does God require to qualify for His Israel?
  1. Jewish DNA
  2. Jewish religion
  3. Jewish culture
  4. Faith and obedience in and to His Son

Faith. However, your question has no link to my post. In Romans 11, Paul is talking about his fellow Jews, his own countrymen, Israel who rejected Christ.
 
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jgr

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Faith. However, your question has no link to my post. In Romans 11, Paul is talking about his fellow Jews, his own countrymen, Israel who rejected Christ.

Absolutely true. Faith and obedience.

So his own countrymen who rejected Christ did not possess faith and obedience, and would not be saved, notwithstanding their DNA. Only the faithful and obedient remnant would be saved (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4,5,23,26).
 
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GospelS

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Absolutely true. Faith and obedience.

So his own countrymen who rejected Christ did not possess faith and obedience, and would not be saved, notwithstanding their DNA. Only the faithful and obedient remnant would be saved (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4,5,23,26).

Paul, an Israelite, who once strongly rejected Christ and even persecuted believers was still saved. Paul did you possess faith and obedience before he got saved. He is still chosen by God. Also, have you not heard the testimonies of Israelites who once rejected Christ but later got saved and received Him. You can google and find them even in YouTube.

So I won’t say that they would not be saved. God did not say He won’t save them forever. God has put temporary blindness upon them for rejecting Christ until the times of gentiles is fulfilled. Who knows God might have grace and mercy and also save those people who once rejected Christ. That is what Paul is saying in Romans 11 being himself an example of rejecting and receiving Christ by God’s grace and mercy.

31. so they too (referring to his countrymen) have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
 
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jgr

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So I won’t say that they would not be saved. God did not say He won’t save them forever.

Your earlier correct answer was "faith".

Are "they" and "them" saved by some criterion/criteria other than faith?
 
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GospelS

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Your earlier correct answer was "faith".

Are "they" and "them" saved by some criterion/criteria other than faith?

I have never denied it’s faith so I’m not sure why you brought this up. All I’m quoting is Romans 11:25 that a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

And, this Israel Paul is referring to is the physical offspring who once rejected Christ and who will later receive faith and be saved.
 
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jgr

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And, this Israel Paul is referring to is the physical offspring/Jews who once rejected Christ and who will later receive faith and be saved.

How can those who reject Christ "receive faith" which they are rejecting?

I've brought it up because of the pervasive misunderstanding that all physical Israel will be saved, when Paul is clear that only the faithful obedient believing remnant of Israel will be saved.
 
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I have never denied it’s faith so I’m not sure why you brought this up. All I’m quoting is Romans 11:25 that a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

And, this Israel Paul is referring to is the physical offspring/Jews who once rejected Christ and who will later receive faith and be saved.

Paul did not say that because you are reading into Scripture. Read the verse again:

Rom 11:25-27
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This blindness in part, or harness of Israel's heart will continue throughout the New Covenant period until the fullness of the Gentiles are come in. And we read here, "..and so (in this way) all Israel shall be saved as it is written," by the Deliverer out of Zion that shall turn away ungodliness from them.

Some Theologians attempt to rewrite verse 26 to make it read, "after all the Gentiles come in, Then all the nation of Israel is going to be Saved." But even on the face of it, that makes absolutely no sense. All Israel will never be saved, if that 'all' means the literal nation as some have alleged. That is totally against everything scripture declares. There is only going to be a remnant of Jacob saved, as has already been stated in the scriptures. It doesn't say most of Israel, it doesn't say the majority of Israel, it says "so all Israel shall be saved."

The second point is that some theologians who realize that it certainly cannot really mean all and be referring literally to the nation Israel, claim that it doesn't really mean literally "all Israel shall be Saved." And these are inevitably those who insist that they take the scriptures very literally. They interpret this to only mean that most of the nation Israel shall be saved. Curiously, they want this literally to refer to the nation Israel, but they don't want it literally mean all Israel. Moreover, this only drives them deeper into confusion and rationalization, because it clearly says when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, so all Israel shall be saved. If that all means just a remnant, then what is the need for this future salvation program? For Paul has stated earlier in this chapter that a remnant of Jews are even now coming in. And if the 'all' here does not mean a remnant, but the whole nation, then it is a deviation from the immutability of God in what He has said, and what has always been. It's an aberration, since the whole nation of Israel has never been saved. The scriptures are not subject to arbitrary or capricious private interpretations. While it is very true that the word "all" is often qualified in scripture to mean "many," there is nothing in the context of this chapter or verse to validate the view that it refers to most of the physical nation of Israel. For Gentiles are not grafted into a physical or literal middle eastern nation of Israel. They are grafted into the Covenant with Israel and remain in their own nations.

The third point is, though many Theologians often take license to declare that it says "and then" all Israel "will" be saved, it doesn't really say that at all. Speaking of Israel it says part of it is blinded until the fullness of Gentiles come in (to Israel), and so all Israel shall be Saved. This is another very important distinction that is often merely glossed over by those who do not want to accept what is written here. In other words, the context of these scriptures show it is saying that this is how all Israel shall be saved. It will be by some Jewish branches being broken off, and some Gentile grafted being ingrafted in. And when the fullness of these Gentiles are come in, "so" all Israel shall be saved. The all Israel is all of these who finally end up in this Covenant tree, Israel. The Jew first, and then the Gentiles, both in one tree, and both of that very same body.

If God had wanted to use the word 'then' (meaning afterward) there, He would most certainly have inspired it to be used there. There is a perfectly good Greek word that is translated 'then' [epeita], but God does not inspire that word to be used here. The word here is the Greek word [houtos], an adverb, meaning 'the manner' in which they shall be saved. By all means, get a Greek lexicon and check this out yourself. So means "thusly" or "in this manner/fashion/wise." This word does not illustrate a future tense time frame at all, it is simply showing the manner in which Israel is saved. This word [houtos] doesn't mean 'then' and is never translated then. And so it is obviously incorrect to read this verse 'as if' it means then, or 'as if' it means after the Gentiles come in. Here are just a few examples of this word's use to demonstrate its unambiguous meaning.
 
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GospelS

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How can those who reject Christ "receive faith" which they are rejecting?

I've brought it up because of the pervasive misunderstanding that all physical Israel will be saved, when Paul is clear that only the faithful obedient believing remnant of Israel will be saved.

Here’s how:
It is by God’s grace and mercy. In Romans 11:31 Paul is referring to the disobedient ones who shall receive mercy and thus later come to faith.

It is by God removing their blindness so that they can receive/come to faith.

And by making them jealous of gentiles who accepted Christ, so they too will begin to have faith (Romans 11:14 “in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them”).

Can you refer me to my post where I stated “ALL Israel” will be saved?
 
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TribulationSigns

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How? It is by God’s grace and mercy. It is because God is removing their blindness so that they can receive faith.

No, the blindness in part is happening to Jews where there were some Jews who become saved along with the Gentiles UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be coming in. And so ALL Israel are saved. God is talking about His Covenant Israel making up all Elect from Old and New Testament, Jews and Gentiles. Not national Israel only. God did not say that he will remove their blindness after all Gentiles be coming in so that salvation program will be extended to Jews again in Israel. That's a wishful thinking and wrong interpretation on your part.
 
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GospelS

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Paul did not say that because you are reading into Scripture. Read the verse again:

Rom 11:25-27
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This blindness in part, or harness of Israel's heart will continue throughout the New Covenant period until the fullness of the Gentiles are come in. And we read here, "..and so (in this way) all Israel shall be saved as it is written," by the Deliverer out of Zion that shall turn away ungodliness from them.

Some Theologians attempt to rewrite verse 26 to make it read, "after all the Gentiles come in, Then all the nation of Israel is going to be Saved." But even on the face of it, that makes absolutely no sense. All Israel will never be saved, if that 'all' means the literal nation as some have alleged. That is totally against everything scripture declares. There is only going to be a remnant of Jacob saved, as has already been stated in the scriptures. It doesn't say most of Israel, it doesn't say the majority of Israel, it says "so all Israel shall be saved."

The second point is that some theologians who realize that it certainly cannot really mean all and be referring literally to the nation Israel, claim that it doesn't really mean literally "all Israel shall be Saved." And these are inevitably those who insist that they take the scriptures very literally. They interpret this to only mean that most of the nation Israel shall be saved. Curiously, they want this literally to refer to the nation Israel, but they don't want it literally mean all Israel. Moreover, this only drives them deeper into confusion and rationalization, because it clearly says when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, so all Israel shall be saved. If that all means just a remnant, then what is the need for this future salvation program? For Paul has stated earlier in this chapter that a remnant of Jews are even now coming in. And if the 'all' here does not mean a remnant, but the whole nation, then it is a deviation from the immutability of God in what He has said, and what has always been. It's an aberration, since the whole nation of Israel has never been saved. The scriptures are not subject to arbitrary or capricious private interpretations. While it is very true that the word "all" is often qualified in scripture to mean "many," there is nothing in the context of this chapter or verse to validate the view that it refers to most of the physical nation of Israel. For Gentiles are not grafted into a physical or literal middle eastern nation of Israel. They are grafted into the Covenant with Israel and remain in their own nations.

The third point is, though many Theologians often take license to declare that it says "and then" all Israel "will" be saved, it doesn't really say that at all. Speaking of Israel it says part of it is blinded until the fullness of Gentiles come in (to Israel), and so all Israel shall be Saved. This is another very important distinction that is often merely glossed over by those who do not want to accept what is written here. In other words, the context of these scriptures show it is saying that this is how all Israel shall be saved. It will be by some Jewish branches being broken off, and some Gentile grafted being ingrafted in. And when the fullness of these Gentiles are come in, "so" all Israel shall be saved. The all Israel is all of these who finally end up in this Covenant tree, Israel. The Jew first, and then the Gentiles, both in one tree, and both of that very same body.

If God had wanted to use the word 'then' (meaning afterward) there, He would most certainly have inspired it to be used there. There is a perfectly good Greek word that is translated 'then' [epeita], but God does not inspire that word to be used here. The word here is the Greek word [houtos], an adverb, meaning 'the manner' in which they shall be saved. By all means, get a Greek lexicon and check this out yourself. So means "thusly" or "in this manner/fashion/wise." This word does not illustrate a future tense time frame at all, it is simply showing the manner in which Israel is saved. This word [houtos] doesn't mean 'then' and is never translated then. And so it is obviously incorrect to read this verse 'as if' it means then, or 'as if' it means after the Gentiles come in. Here are just a few examples of this word's use to demonstrate its unambiguous meaning.

I never mentioned ALL physical Israel will be saved in any of my posts. So I’m not sure why the whole discussion is brought up about “ALL”.
 
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GospelS

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No, the blindness in part is happening to Jews where there were some Jews who become saved along with the Gentiles UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be coming in. And so ALL Israel are saved. God is talking about His Covenant Israel making up all Elect from Old and New Testament, Jews and Gentiles. Not national Israel only. God did not say that he will remove their blindness after all Gentiles be coming in so that salvation program will be extended to Jews again in Israel. That's a wishful thinking and wrong interpretation on your part.

I did not mention in any of my post that “AFTER all gentiles”. So I’m not sure why you assume I’m thinking and interpreting in that way. Yes, Israelites get saved along with the gentiles.
 
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I never mentioned ALL physical Israel will be saved in any of my posts. So I’m not sure why the whole discussion is brought up about “ALL”.

Let me ask you few simple questions if see if you fully know what Israel God talked about here.

What Israel is this that will be all saved after all Gentiles be coming INTO HER?

Rom 11:25-27
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Can you show us a verse or two "as it is written" elsewhere in Scripture that confirms verse 26? Which Israel did God made a new covenant with? A physical nation of Israel or Spiritual Covenant Israel? Hint: which one that bears the Gentile branches and the root of Christ along with the Jews?

Once all Gentiles be coming in, it is DONE DEAL. All Israel shall be saved. All Covenant Israel before the foundation of the Earth has been found and secured. Game over! There won't be future salvation plan or "second chance" for the Jews in national Israel after this.
 
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GospelS

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Let me ask you few simple questions if see if you fully know what Israel God talked about here.

What Israel is this that will be all saved after all Gentiles be coming INTO HER?

Rom 11:25-27
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Can you show us a verse or two "as it is written" elsewhere in Scripture that confirms verse 26? Which Israel did God made a new covenant with? A physical nation of Israel or Spiritual Covenant Israel? Hint: which one that bears the Gentile branches and the root of Christ along with the Jews?

Once all Gentiles be coming in, it is DONE DEAL. All Israel shall be saved. All Covenant Israel before the foundation of the Earth has been found and secured. Game over! There won't be future salvation plan or "second chance" for the Jews in national Israel after this.

I've brought it up because of the pervasive misunderstanding that all physical Israel will be saved,

Both remnant Israel and all Israel is mentioned in the scriptures. Whether all physical Israel will be saved or not, I do not know and I’m not to have any say on that or choose/interpret between remnant and all. That is God’s business. So let me leave it there.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Both remnant Israel and all Israel is mentioned in the scriptures. Whether all physical Israel will be saved or not, I do not know and I’m not to have any say on that or choose/interpret between remnant and all. That is God’s business. So let me leave it there.

I see that you rather not to SEARCH for verses that Paul mentioned, "as it is written," that confirms verse 26 because that is the answer you need to find out. The reason why you don't know is that you did not want to "study thyself approved to God," before saying "leave it there." It obviously means that you are holding on to doctrine you feel comfortable with.

Not wise.
 
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GospelS

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I see that you rather not to SEARCH for verses that Paul mentioned, "as it is written," that confirms verse 26 because that is the answer you need to find out. The reason why you don't know is that you did not want to "study thyself approved to God," before saying "leave it there." It obviously means that you are holding on to doctrine you feel comfortable with.

Not wise.

I do not know because I’m not God. I said I leave it there because I’m not God. Let God be God and man be a man. No one knows but only God knows whether it is all physical Israel or not.
 
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I do not know because I’m not God. I said I leave it there because I’m not God. Let God be God and man be a man. No one knows but only God knows whether it is all physical Israel or not.

Uh-uh.

Romans 11:25 says we should not be "ignorant of this mystery" means that the answer is there but it is a mystery for a reason. Only those with the Spirit and wise of Christ will it be revealed to them. The rest do not. Therefore, you do need to study some more if you want to know the Truth. It seems that you gave up and make some excuses like "No one knows but only God knows," AFTER you posted earlier that you insisted that the physical land of Israel will be restored filled with Jews after the time of the Gentiles, an erroneous interpretation of Luke 21:24, You can start review yourself here.
 
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