Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

[renniks]

So the purpose in the afterlife will be 'to live' and 'to reign'?
i) How can 'to live' happen in an afterlife?
and;
ii) 'Reign' over what, exactly?

The term " afterlife" it's kind of silly when you really think about it. It's really just a continuation of life. It's not some gnostic concept of spirits floating around in the atmosphere... We will have actual bodies and eventually live on the actual Earth we live on now just a remade earth.
And since it speaks of the nations of the Earth, obviously there's something beyond the city.

"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Several verses in the New Testament indicate that all of God’s people will receive crowns:

• 1 Corinthians 9:25 — “Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.”
• 2 Timothy 4:8 — “Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day — and not only to me but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

• Revelation 2:26 — “To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations.”

Of course the question is if everyone's a ruler, who do they rule over? Perhaps some of us will only rule over a piece of land. That would be okay with me. I would rather be the least in the kingdom of God, then a boss in hell. I expect to create in the New Earth, because I've always been creative, and I expect to explore, because that's what brings me joy. I suspect everyone will be given a role, fit for their callings.

 

[AV1611VET]

You don't get to move the goalposts because you've lost the argument.

That "goalpost" I allegedly moved was put there by basic doctrine.

Did you read the words ... or even listen to the words ... to that song?

Jesus set up the New Testament church in His first advent.

 

[renniks]

Uh huh. What is the purpose of that existence? And as I said, if you have nothing to compare "joy" to, how can you feel "joy"? Being in a constant, unchanging single emotional state is not part of the human experience. So, either you'll no longer be you or you'll go insane because you need those changes to be you.

You haven't ever thought this through, have you?

No I have thought about it considerably... I'm usually working by myself, so I have lots of time to think.

• Revelation 2:26 — “To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations.”

The purpose will need to rule over whatever God gives me to rule over.
BTW, if we have perfect minds and bodies how would going insane even be possible? You are thinking much too small. You need to get beyond the flawed world we live in now, and imagine infinite possibilities.
And I see no reason why it should be a unchanging emotional state, as if there's only one version of joy?
I expect there will be room to grow in joy and peace and improve as a human being forever.

I suspect you are imagining some kind of Nirvana, not heaven. Heaven and the new Earth will be real and solid, not spirits floating around on clouds. And there will be jobs to do. I expect to create and to explore, because those are the things that bring me happiness, and worship, but not like an endless church service, but worship by doing. We cannot possibly imagine heaven better than it will be, but we can surely imagine it worse.

"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. "

 

[AV1611VET]

Few will admit it, but their actions betray their
belief that they are infallible.

Just because I'm infallible, it doesn't mean I have to turn my back on even basic doctrine in order to placate those who post from Scholarsville.

 

[AV1611VET]

And still, most of the Bible was written before that, just as Bungle Bear said.

Ya ... it's called the Old Testament.

What's your point? that Paul wasn't a Christian?

 

[Speedwell]

Ya ... it's called the Old Testament.

What's your point? that Paul wasn't a Christian?

No, my point is the same as Bungle Bear's: despite your claims to the contrary, most of the Bible was written before Christianity existed.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, my point is the same as Bungle Bear's: despite your claims to the contrary, most of the Bible was written before Christianity existed.

What claims to the contrary?

Most of the Bible was written before Christianity existed.

Specifically, 39 of the 27 books were written centuries before Christianity was started.

Which came first, the Passover, or Moses writing Exodus 12?

Which came first, Easter, or Luke writing Acts 12?

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[SelfSim]

... The purpose will need to rule over whatever God gives me to rule over.
BTW, if we have perfect minds and bodies how would going insane even be possible? You are thinking much too small. You need to get beyond the flawed world we live in now, and imagine infinite possibilities.

All I see here, is evidence of you providing a perfect example of your mind embroidering a version of a reality which comports with your own (selfish?) desires .. which brings us back to my item (ii) from my post#2:

The only two known methods for deciding what's real and what isn't, are:
i) the scientific (objective) method and;
ii) by way of beliefs.

...

We cannot possibly imagine heaven better than it will be, but we can surely imagine it worse.

Its kind of amusing to say (we) are 'thinking much too small' and should 'imagine infinite possibilities' and then immediately make the above statement, where our minds have then suddenly been limited .. by fiat.

It takes a living, healthy mind to imagine anything .. including the idea of: that mind can exist beyond its own mortal death. The above evidence is that the mind doing all that imagining, is your present, living and, (presumably), healthy mind .. and our present minds have no idea what 'a perfect mind and body' is, nor what/how the mind part of that, would conceive things like that it 'lives in (a state of) eternal joy'. If I'm not misunderstanding here, that deceased mind became disintegrated from its senses the moment it died, no?
How could it possibly perceive anything in that particular state? It would have no 'inputs' (from which our minds forms its perceptions).

 

[SelfSim]

The term " afterlife" it's kind of silly when you really think about it. It's really just a continuation of life. It's not some gnostic concept of spirits floating around in the atmosphere... We will have actual bodies and eventually live on the actual Earth we live on now just a remade earth.

So now our bodies also get resurrected into heaven .. along with our minds?

Several verses in the New Testament indicate that all of God’s people will receive crowns:

• 1 Corinthians 9:25 — “Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.”
• 2 Timothy 4:8 — “Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day — and not only to me but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

• Revelation 2:26 — “To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations.”

Of course the question is if everyone's a ruler, who do they rule over? Perhaps some of us will only rule over a piece of land.

What's the purpose of a wearing a crown, if its only meaning is to a piece of land? (That makes no sense).

Wherever there are 'rulers', there must be 'subjects' .. and those 'subjects' are therefore second class citizens, by definition. Who are these 'subjects'?

That would be okay with me. I would rather be the least in the kingdom of God, then a boss in hell. I expect to create in the New Earth, because I've always been creative, and I expect to explore, because that's what brings me joy. I suspect everyone will be given a role, fit for their callings.

.. with never any room for growth and development .. for the rest of eternity? .. (which is an horrific concept .. for any human mind!)

Who says that you won't end up as one of those 'subject' type rulers?

 

[renniks]

takes a living, healthy mind to imagine anything .. including the idea of: that mind can exist beyond its own mortal death. The above evidence is that the mind doing all that imagining, is your present, living and, (presumably), healthy mind .. and our present minds have no idea what 'a perfect mind and body' is, nor what/how the mind part of that, would conceive things like that it 'lives in (a state of) eternal joy'. If I'm not misunderstanding here, that deceased mind became disintegrated from its senses the moment it died, no?
How could it possibly perceive anything in that particular state? It would have no 'inputs' (from which our minds forms its perceptions).

It would once it's remade. You are still not getting it.

 

[SelfSim]

It would once it's remade. You are still not getting it.

.. oh I get it ..

It takes a mortal, human mind to imagine what happens when a mind is remade .. just as you did in your first sentence above, where you deliberately injected your own beliefs into the scenario.
Once one starts contemplating 'infinite (eternal) possibilities', one loses track of the only practical/useful reality we know of, which necessarily constrains our thinking .. and all bets are off.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Which came first, the Passover, or Moses writing Exodus 12?

Passover

Which came first, Easter, or Luke writing Acts 12?

Acts 12

What does this have to do with anything?

It is poor translation to say that Herod scheduled something to happen after Easter when Easter did not exist. Besides which, as a Jew, Herod would have cared about Passover, not Easter, so even if Easter had been a thing he still would have used Passover as his marker.

 

[renniks]

.. oh I get it ..

It takes a mortal, human mind to imagine what happens when a mind is remade .. just as you did in your first sentence above, where you deliberately injected your own beliefs into the scenario.
Once one starts contemplating 'infinite (eternal) possibilities', one loses track of the only practical/useful reality we know of, which necessarily constrains our thinking .. and all bets are off.

We are much more than our minds. Our spirits can imagine things our logic cannot.

 

[AV1611VET]

It is poor translation to say that Herod scheduled something to happen after Easter when Easter did not exist. Besides which, as a Jew, Herod would have cared about Passover, not Easter, so even if Easter had been a thing he still would have used Passover as his marker.

You were there?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

We are much more than our minds. Our spirits can imagine things our logic cannot.

The only person not getting it is you. If everything is remade, including you, then you do not get eternal life, somebody else does.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

You were there?

Yes, I was. And I didn't see you there.

 

[SelfSim]

We are much more than our minds. Our spirits can imagine things our logic cannot.

Yes .. that's your belief, where what I mean by your 'belief' is what you hold to be true out of preference, that does not follow from objective tests and is not beholden to the rules of logic.

You evidently base your reality on this belief .. but you also make a grab for whatever objective science and logic has unequivocally assigned as being real (including the meanings of the words both you and the bible use).

 

[SelfSim]

The only person not getting it is you. If everything is remade, including you, then you do not get eternal life, somebody else does.

Yep .. freedom of choice has been completely obliterated .. and we are living someone else's thoughts and existence.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, I was. And I didn't see you there.

Where were you looking for me? at the Passover? at the Feast of Ishtar? or in a church celebrating Easter Sunday?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Where were you looking for me? at the Passover? at the Feast of Ishtar? or in a church celebrating Easter Sunday?

How could I have looked in a non-existent church for somebody celebrating a non-existent service?

AV, your lack of knowledge of history is showing you up.