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Is the fundamental gap between creationists and non-creationists...

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by pitabread, Mar 17, 2021.

  1. pitabread

    pitabread Well-Known Member

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    ... a disagreement over basic reality?

    I find a lot of discussions with creationists seem to be boil down to disagreement over the nature of reality. And I'm not sure that there is a way to bridge such disagreement.
     
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  2. SelfSim

    SelfSim A non "-ist"

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    Of course it is!

    The only two known methods for deciding what's real and what isn't, are:

    i) the scientific (objective) method and;
    ii) by way of beliefs.

    There is no useful purpose in trying to 'bridge' those methods.
    In fact, the usefulness comes from realising that they are completely distinct methods.
     
  3. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    There is a third -- and the most important -- method: the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That is different from belief, which is a mental exercise.
     
  4. pitabread

    pitabread Well-Known Member

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    What you are suggesting involves belief in the Holy Spirit.
     
  5. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Yes! But that is also true for most human disagreement....

    Epistemology actually more than "reality" seeing how our reality is generally filtered and constructed.
     
  6. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Of course. If you believe all of history is solely blind causation by nature you can never allow for even the smallest miracle. We are not bound by such a narrow view of reality.
     
  7. SelfSim

    SelfSim A non "-ist"

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    Ok then .. so let's just not believe: 'all of history is solely blind causation by nature'.
    Problem solved!
     
  8. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    Reality from a spiritual perspective is relative. I'm quite certain that by comparison your view of reality is bound to a very narrow view compared to the reality I live in.
     
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  9. SelfSim

    SelfSim A non "-ist"

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    Relative only to the belief in 'a spiritual perspective', that is.
    .. and your certainty there is bound to the frame of a 'spiritual perspective', which only you can define what you mean by that.
    Is that 'broad'?
     
  10. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    No, that isn't the case. "Belief" is the wrong word. Is it correct, for example, for me to say that I believe that I am alive? No, I know that I am alive. I know that I am guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth.

    Jesus said (John 16:13), "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

    Unless you believe that Jesus wasn't telling the truth...
     
  11. SelfSim

    SelfSim A non "-ist"

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    I have a useful definition of 'belief' which can be used for clarfying what I mean by belief:
    'A belief is that which I hold to be true out of preference, that does not follow from objective tests and is not beholden to the rules of logic."
    How do I distinguish this 'speaking someone', from someone who is just impersonating this spirit and is just retelling someone else's truth?
     
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  12. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    I know your not going to understand, but its' a conscious experience sort of thing.

    The thing is, I'm not alone.
     
  13. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    Perhaps, it's not for you to distinguish the experiences of another person.
     
  14. SelfSim

    SelfSim A non "-ist"

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    I'm human, so I have a chance .. Don't give up on me yet!
    I don't see how that necessarily means that you represent a non-narrow perspective. A better stance is surely to make the attempt of addressing (and representing) both 'narrow' and 'broad' viewpoints?
     
  15. SelfSim

    SelfSim A non "-ist"

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    Well if I don't do that, I'd have no sense of existing as an individual .. and therefore, no sense whatsoever of any reality. Reality wouldn't matter and thus the entire issue just fades into the continuum. That's a pretty impractical thing to do .. even for spiritualists (who distinguish 'spirits'?)!
     
  16. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    That's all true.
    What I was addressing was someone saying another had a narrow view and their view was broader. My point is that it's a relative thing. I'm not saying one perspective is better than another. Clearly that's not the case, as you have so rightly highlighted.
     
  17. SelfSim

    SelfSim A non "-ist"

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    Cool.
    Can you think of a broader way (ie: stance and method) of distinguishing reality than what I suggested in post #2, items (i) and (ii), then?
     
  18. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    No living human being, because we are bound to this physical world, can exist without a sense of reality around them. But our realities can be a bit different at some level. It's a consciousnesses thing. Mystics, for example, can be aware of things you or I might not be opened up to.
     
  19. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    The options are too narrow for me to answer. :)
     
  20. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Ask God! Hebrews 11:1 (NET 2.1), "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see."

    Believe me, if it's the Holy Spirit "telling" you the truth you will know it.
     
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