Is the 1st resurrection initially being applied before or after death?

[BABerean2]

BTW, I don't see John 5:24 listed anywhere above. Maybe that's because 'anastasis' doesn't mean John 5:24. Could that be the reason why?

You did not answer the question...

What do you call it when a person who was dead comes to life?

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Is that Greek word found below when Christ raised Lazarus from the dead?

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If it is after death only a bodily resurrection appears to be applicable. If it is before death only a spiritual resurrection appears to be applicable.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

This is the first resurrection



The text states this----and I saw the souls of them

Then the text goes on to state this----and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

How should that be understood?

Like such?

and the souls of them lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Or like such instead?

and the bodily resurrected martyrs lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

One thing we do know is this, or at least we should if we don't. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years---equals this---This is the first resurrection.

What does this at least tell us? That the first resurrection can't precede nor follow the thousand years. One can't reign with Christ a thousand years before the thousand years even begin. Nor can one reign with Christ a thousand years when the thousand years have expired. This would indicate, assuming the first resurrection is spiritual, meaning when one is initially saved in this age, no one can be saved during satan's little season in that case. The reason being, you can't have the first resurrection without the reigning of a thousand years. satan's little season is after the thousand years.


The question then is this. The martyrs in Revelation 20:4, are they already reigning with Christ a thousand years when they are initially martyred? Or because they have been martyred, they then reign with Christ a thousand years at some later point in the future?

The former would imply that the martyred are resurrected while they are still physically alive. The latter would imply they are resurrected after they have already physically died first. The former would fit a position such as Amil. The latter, a position such as Premil. The way the text reads to me, it is the latter. And I'm not just saying that because I'm Premil. I'm saying that because that is literally how the text reads to me.

Well you're making a few mistakes. The passage which talks about the souls under the altar is concerning the opening of the 5th seal. This requires an understanding of the seals. John seeing the souls of those who were killed during the first 4 seals is not literal. Revelation takes a lot of language and symbols from other parts of the bible. When Abel was killed, his blood cried out (Genesis 3:10) and that was symbolic. The bible says the life is in the blood (Lev 17:11). Well one of the definitions of the greek word used for soul is life. So you have to be careful about taking things too literally when reading Revelation. The idea of the fifth seal is that there is going to be another wave of persecution which is to follow thereafter, and then God will avenge his people. The period of the seals begins from Jesus's ascension.

So now when you come to Revelation 20 you are dealing with the time after God avenges his people, this is after the second wave of persecution has already taken place, and at the second coming. The first resurrection takes place at the second coming of Jesus which begins the 1,000 years. Are we told in other passages about a resurrection that shall take place at the second coming? Yes we are. So this is the first resurrection. The second resurrection takes place after the 1000 years are finished.

 

[DavidPT]

You did not answer the question...

What do you call it when a person who was dead comes to life?

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Is that Greek word found below when Christ raised Lazarus from the dead?

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Until you can show otherwise, anastasis appears to mean a literal resurrection in every verse that word is found. To prove you even have a case you need to find a verse or two where anastasis is used in it, and that it is obvious it isn't meaning a literal resurrection. This would at least show that anastasis doesn't always mean in the literal sense every time, which then would mean there's a chance it's not meaning in the literal sense in Revelation 20 either. But until then----

 

[DavidPT]

Well you're making a few mistakes. The passage which talks about the souls under the altar is concerning the opening of the 5th seal. This requires an understanding of the seals. John seeing the souls of those who were killed during the first 4 seals is not literal. Revelation takes a lot of language and symbols from other parts of the bible. When Abel was killed, his blood cried out (Genesis 3:10) and that was symbolic. The bible says the life is in the blood (Lev 17:11). Well one of the definitions of the greek word used for soul is life. So you have to be careful about taking things too literally when reading Revelation. The idea of the fifth seal is that there is going to be another wave of persecution which is to follow thereafter, and then God will avenge his people. The period of the seals begins from Jesus's ascension.

So now when you come to Revelation 20 you are dealing with the time after God avenges his people, this is after the second wave of persecution has already taken place, and at the second coming. The first resurrection takes place at the second coming of Jesus which begins the 1,000 years. Are we told in other passages about a resurrection that shall take place at the second coming? Yes we are. So this is the first resurrection. The second resurrection takes place after the 1000 years are finished.

I see much of what you said the same way you do. I'm on the same page with you per your point with Genesis 3:10. I'm not taking these things as literally as you might think. But I am taking the martyrs in Revelation 20 in the literal sense when they initially take part in the 1st resurrection, as in they bodily rise from the dead. That appears to be your view as well. All of that said, not certain what mistakes it is you think I'm making? If I am making some mistakes here, then so are you since I'm pretty much in agreement with most of what you submitted.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I see much of what you said the same way you do. I'm on the same page with you per your point with Genesis 3:10. I'm not taking these things as literally as you might think. But I am taking the martyrs in Revelation 20 in the literal sense when they initially take part in the 1st resurrection, as in they bodily rise from the dead. That appears to be your view as well. All of that said, not certain what mistakes it is you think I'm making? If I am making some mistakes here, then so are you since I'm pretty much in agreement with most of what you submitted.

Then I guess i probably misunderstood you a bit. We're on the same page then. Its rare that someone here is on the same page with me. I will remember this moment.

 

[Contenders Edge]

There are two different types of resurrection described by Christ in John chapter 5.

The first resurrection in John chapter 5 is the Spiritual resurrection from the dead found in John 5:24. This occurs upon faith in Christ.

The second resurrection in John chapter 5 is the bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead found in John 5:27-30. This occurs upon the Second Coming of Christ.
(See Revelation 11:15-18)

.

While it is true that “resurrection” can sometimes be used as a figurative expression to refer to a spiritual rebirth, still, it more often refers to bodily resurrection and what is being dealt with here is concerning the nature of the resurrection of the tribulation saints who were killed by the Anti-Christ which the text shows, and as is commonly understood, a literal bodily resurrection.

 

[mkgal1]

If a person is literally dead, how will he be able to believe or trust anyone?

Your brain and heart has to be alive in order to believe or trust in anyone.

Who said anything about "literally dead"? The quote you shared answers your question (while, at the same time, contradicts your earlier assertion that BABerean is "wrong"). The passages shared aren't referring to literal physical death. They're in reference to the death mentioned to Adam in Genesis 2:17.

Question: "What is eternal life?"

Answer: When the Bible speaks of eternal life, it refers to a gift of God that comes only “through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). This gift is in contrast to the “death” that is the natural result of sin.

The Bible inextricably links eternal life with the Person of Jesus Christ. John 17:3 is an important passage in this regard, as Jesus prays, “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Here, Jesus equates “eternal life” with a knowledge of God and of the Son. There is no knowledge of God without the Son, for it is through the Son that the Father reveals Himself to the elect (John 17:6; 14:9)

 

[DavidPT]

While it is true that “resurrection” can sometimes be used as a figurative expression to refer to a spiritual rebirth, still, it more often refers to bodily resurrection and what is being dealt with here is concerning the nature of the resurrection of the tribulation saints who were killed by the Anti-Christ which the text shows, and as is commonly understood, a literal bodily resurrection.

If John 5:24 had used anastasis anywhere in that verse, Amil might then have a good case for Revelation 20. My point is, not that John 5:24 doesn't describe a spiritual resurrection of sorts, but that anastasis doesn't appear to be involving spiritual resurrections in any of the verses it appears. The pattern throughout would be that anastasis only involves literal resurrections then, the same way a cardinal number followed by years all throughout the Bible are meaning literal years, thus telling us how to understand the thousand years, as in literal years. Maybe others don't believe there are patterns found in the Bible that follow the same pattern every time it is used, but I do. But not everything would involve a certain pattern throughout. 'Day' being a good example. That can be understood in a number of senses.

 

[DavidPT]

The passages shared aren't referring to literal physical death. They're in reference to the death mentioned to Adam in Genesis 2:17.

Even in the 2nd century some already had insight into the likely meaning. Such as what Justin Martyr said in the following.

For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not
complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The day of the Lord is as a thousand years, is connected with this subject.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


When looking at it like that, Adam indeed physically died the same day he partook of the forbidden fruit.

 

[BABerean2]

Even in the 2nd century some already had insight into the likely meaning. Such as what Justin Martyr said in the following.

For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not
complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The day of the Lord is as a thousand years, is connected with this subject.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


When looking at it like that, Adam indeed physically died the same day he partook of the forbidden fruit.

I am amazed sometimes at the scripture which proponents of the Premill doctrine are willing to ignore to make their doctrine work.

They redefine the whole Bible in order to have Christ ruling over a world where sin, and death remain after the Second Coming described in Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Whose names are written in the Book of Life, which is found below at the end of Revelation chapter 20?

Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The text states this----and I saw the souls of them

Then the text goes on to state this----and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

How should that be understood?

In verse 4 John tells us that he saw the souls of the martyrs who did not worship the beast, nor receive his mark. First of all, notice that John does "not" say he saw the martyrs, nor does he say that he saw their bodies, or the persons, or he saw souls (which could be illustrating people). He is very specific! He saw the souls "of" those that were beheaded for the witness of God. The souls of them, nothing more! Again, this is the Spiritual picture that the Lord is giving us. First the Messenger of the Covenant comes from heaven and binds Satan that the New Covenant Church can be built, and then John sees the souls of those martyred raised up to reign with Christ on thrones. In other words, they are made kings and Priests unto God after Christ binds Satan. If you look at verse 5 you'll see that this (the souls of these martyrs up on thrones) is called The First Resurrection. It's now a simple matter of Biblical deduction to discover exactly when and what was "The First Resurrection?"

Again, fitting perfectly into place we see that it was at the cross! These Souls were raised up to reign with Christ because of the work at the cross and Christ's resurrection thereafter. Christ is the "First" Resurrection. Those who have part in the first resurrection are all the True Believers who have part in Christ's First Resurrection. They are the First Resurrection (the second being at Christ's return). Those who have died in Christ have gone to be with the Lord, having been raised with Christ to reign. That's the First Resurrection these martyrs have part in, which precludes the second death.

The very fact a first resurrection is spoken about, indicates that there is a second. And the second resurrection is at Christ's return. This is at the time of the Rapture when when the rest of the dead will be raised to stand for Judgment. And then there will be the second death, of which those who have part in the First Resurrection (raised with Christ) have no need to worry about. Likewise, the very fact that a second death is spoken about, implies that there is a first death.

Romans 5:12-14

• "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
• (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
• Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

The first death is our death in Adam. For in him we are all dead in tresspass and sin. As God told Adam, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And in Adam, we all die, which means that we are all dead in trespass and sin. This is that first death.

1st Corinthians 15:21-22

• "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Did Adam die when he ate of the tree? Yes, but not physically, he died spiritually. Therefore the first resurrection from the dead is not physical, but spiritual. It is in Christ, the firstfruit. And we shall 'realize' that eternal life resurrection at his coming.
Do not be confused by this First and Second Resurrection, and the First and Second Death. This is the way the Lord writes things that His sheep 'alone' will receive it. Just as in the parables He told. If we look at these verses carefully and objectively, we can see that the thousand years are not literal. These souls are those of the martyrs in heaven. It says these are those beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and are those who didn't receive the mark of the beast in their foreheads (sign of bondage to satan).

And we read the rest of the dead lived not again for 1000 years (verse 5). This also illustrates that this is not speaking about a future first resurrection, for there is one future resurrection of the just and the unjust. And it is not (nor can it be) the first. If this were indeed a literal number of years, then even all of the "rest of those who died" would have all had to die on the same year. Else they could not have died and not lived again for that literal thousand years. Did everybody (the rest of the dead) all die the same year? ..see how convoluted this gets? Likewise in the 1000 years the believers who died lived and reigned with Christ, is it the same thousand years satan is bound? If so, how can the souls of the dead be reigning with Christ in heaven when Christ is (supposedly) reigning with men here on earth in literal jerusalem in the middle east? Moreover, if the rest of the dead for a thousand years refers to the same thousand literal years Satan is bound, then when Satan is loosed after the thousand years, these "rest of the dead" must also live again, and we have a world with dead people walking around, because scripture emphatically says they lived again after the thousand years? Does Satan have an army of "literal" dead people helping him deceive the nations and coming against the camp of the Saints? For the rest of these dead live after this thousand years, and Satan is loosed after a thousand years. On and on this inconsistency and torture of scripture is endless in the premillennialist doctrine. If we just bother to look at it carefully we understand that it simply cannot be literally a thousand years.

But here is the truth of the matter. We should understand that everything in this Revelations chapter 20 is going along in a logical chronological progression. Christ, The Messenger of the Covenant, Comes down from heaven with this Key (Christ is the one with the Keys to Hell and death -Rev. 1:18) and great chain and lays hold on Satan and bounds him 1000 year (the fullness time for the Lords purpose) so that He can free Satan's prisoners and populate Christ's Kingdom with the spoil. He shuts Satan up in this spiritual prison symbolized by the fathomless abyss where he can't deceive the world and prevent the Lord's plan to build His Temple by spoiling satan's house! God sets a seal on him (indicating that He assures this). This is God's "signification" of security that no one can loose Satan but God who bound him. He will not be not loosed until the fullness of time is accomplished (spiritually, 1000 years). So after Satan is bound, John sees the souls of the martyrs then living and reigning on thrones. This is consistent with scripture of the binding of Satan, and the work of Christ on the cross which allows these souls to have been raised up from the dead to "live" and reign with Christ! They are kings and Priests unto their God having had part in Christ's Resurrection. These are those who are not servants of Satan (received his mark of servitude), but they are/were martyred because of their witness and for the Word of God they brought. And they all live and reign (spiritually) 1000 years with Christ. And it is by the work of this messenger of the Covenant that they can be translated into the Kingdom and live and reign with Christ.

Ephesians 2:56-57

• "Even when we were Dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, by Grace ye are Saved,
• and hath Raised us up together, and made us to sit in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

What raising up or resurrection from the dead is this? If it's not the "first" then all scripture is untrustworthy and nothing to be believed! Because God says Christ is the First born from the dead, that in all things he might have preeminence. Is that true or not? These souls reigning with Christ reign because they were in Christ when He went to the cross and they were raised up with Him (The First Resurrection) to be seated in heavenly places having the Judgment of God with Power, because God dwelleth within them. Anyone who tries to tell you that the first resurrection hasn't happened yet, either doesn't know the scriptures very well, or is deliberately ignoring them.

If you recall when Mary's brother Lazarus died, Jesus came to her and she said, I know he will be raised at "The Last Day". Well, the last day is the day of the Rapture, but it's the second resurrection, not the first! But Jesus made it perfectly clear to her of another Resurrection. The First! Consider wisely..

John 11:25

• "Jesus said unto her, I Am The Resurrection and the Life. He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live,
• and whosoever that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believeth thou this?"

Perhaps we should ask the Theologians of the Premillennialist Churches today if Jesus indeed was the Resurrection, because it doesn't appear that they believe this is true. Jesus was telling her, the first Resurrection unto Life is in Me, it's right here! I Am the Resurrection! He that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die! In other words, neither Lazarus nor you have have to die physically and wait until the end of the world (The resurrection at the Last Day as Martha says) to be Resurrected. In fact, if you do wait till that time to be resurrected, you won't see life! The First resurrection is right here and now and without it, you are subject to the second death! But if you have part in this First Resurrection (in Christ) the second death hath no power over you. And that is exactly what Revelation 20 said about the First Resurrection.

He that liveth and believeth is Resurrected in Christ so that he'll never die (physical death yes, the second death, No). And he that is dead (as these martyred souls John saw), don't really die, because they had part in that 1st Resurrection in Christ. i.e., as Christ said, the true Believer will never die! That scenario is only possible if they have part in the First Resurrection, which is in Christ. When a believer is martyred, his soul leaves the body, and he goes to live and reign with Christ forever (Symbolized by the number 1000 years). Because He had part in the First Resurrection. And that of course is what John was talking about in Revelation 20. Souls of the Martyrs, not people reigning on earth. John, seeing those souls in heaven, sees the First Resurrection.

Symbolism
Thrones = Reigning
Beheaded = Martyrdom for Christ
Beast = The Kingdom of Satan (as a Ravenous beast to devour)
Mark of the Beast = Signifies coming into Servitude to Satan's Kingdom
Forehead = The Mind
Hand = The Will

Because this messenger came and bound satan, these souls of believers can go to live and Reign with Christ, "because" He has made them the First Resurrection, that they would never truly die.

..Which brings us perfectly to the next verse,

VERSE FIVE

• "But the rest of the dead, lived not again until the 1000 years were finished. This is the First Resurrection".

Some Premillennial Theologians use this verse as support for the idea that there are at least two physical resurrections with a literal earthly millennial reign in between. However, scripture clearly teaches "one" future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. exhibit A:

John 5:28-29

• "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
• And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This is the second Resurrection (not the first in Christ) and this is what is described in Revelation 20:12. The First resurrection is in Christ. This verse of Revelation is conclusive proof that this is speaking about the souls of those martyred who were Saved, and who died physically as it's contrasted against the souls of "the rest of the dead" (the unsaved, who died physically). As believers in Christ those martyred, in their souls go immediately to live and reign with Christ after they die. They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

• "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it".

2nd Corinthians 5:8

• "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".

When believers leave this body to dust, our spirits go to be with the Lord. But the rest of the dead, they lived not until after this present millennial reign. These unsaved weren't raised up from death to new life in the first Resurrection in Christ, therefore they cannot go to live and reign with Christ after death. That is the contrast here. In other words, they had no part in the First Resurrection with Christ! And so when they died, they don't live until raised at "The last day" to stand for judgment. That will be the Second Resurrection. Again, spoken of as, "after the thousand years" (indicating once again that it is not to be taken as literally a thousand, because the rest of the dead die at all different times). Lets take a look at what it says here, and what is meant by it.

1st Resurrection:​

Every single believer who has been raised up in Christ to new life, hath part in this 1st resurrection. Remember the scriptures talk of Christ as the "FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD." If that's not the 1st Resurrection from the dead, the new birth in Christ, then nothing is. He is the Resurrection as He told Martha, and all those raised WITH HIM hath part in that first Resurrection. They are the Church of the firstborn. On these, the second death hath no power. Of course not, for they never die again! ..He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

2nd Resurrection:​

The second coming, at the last trumpet, at the last day, when we that are alive will be raised up to meet Jesus in the air, and Judgment day when the rest of the dead (unsaved who have died) are all are raised up to stand for Judgment.

1st Death:​

The death in Adam which all of mankind has suffered and which if they are not resurrected in Christ from that death, they shall suffer the judgement in the second resurrection.

2nd Death:​

The Judgment that is meted out By GOD upon the unrighteous. HELL! There shall be weeping and grinding of teeth! This is the death that the wages of sin brings forth. It's punishment. The 1st Resurrection (Those raised in Christ) have no need to worry about this, as the power of the Cross of Christ (1st Resurrection) has taken away the sting of death.
We see these thousand years are different for each group, and cannot logically or rationally be the same thousand years if that means literally a thousand. Simply put, verse five tells us that the rest of the dead, those who weren't Saved by having part in Christ's Resurrection (The First) remained dead, and they didn't live again until after the thousand years. That's not speculation, that's what the scriptures clearly say. And after the fullness of God's purpose, which is a different length of time for each of the dead, then they will be raised to stand for Judgment. Those who make the claim that the first Resurrection is not in Christ are contradicting God's Word. God tells us point blank that Christ is the First Resurrection. And he who hath an ear, let him hear and receive it.

Acts 26:23

• "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles".

So then, who are we going to believe, God or man? His interpretation, or our own? These are the same exact Greek words used in Revelation chapter twenty (First Resurrection). So there should be no debate but that Christ's raising from the dead is the 'First Resurrection,' according to God's Word. This is not an interpretation, or my spin on it, it's a direct unadulterated "Quote." That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the 'First Resurrection' from the dead. And we, raised up in him have part in that First Resurrection. We are the Church of the Firstborn from the dead.

 

[mkgal1]

When looking at it like that, Adam indeed physically died the same day he partook of the forbidden fruit.

And now, because of what Jesus' incarnation, ministry on Earth, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension means to us - He has removed death's sting. Death has no power over us any longer. Jesus is the last Adam - reversing what occured in the first.

Romans 5:17 - For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ."​

 

[mkgal1]

In verse 4 John tells us that he saw the souls of the martyrs who did not worship the beast, nor receive his mark. First of all, notice that John does "not" say he saw the martyrs, nor does he say that he saw their bodies, or the persons, or he saw souls (which could be illustrating people). He is very specific! He saw the souls "of" those that were beheaded for the witness of God. The souls of them, nothing more!

Again, this is the Spiritual picture that the Lord is giving us. First the Messenger of the Covenant comes from heaven and binds Satan that the New Covenant Church can be built, and then John sees the souls of those martyred raised up to reign with Christ on thrones.

Again, fitting perfectly into place we see that it was at the cross! These Souls were raised up to reign with Christ because of the work at the cross and Christ's resurrection thereafter. Christ is the "First" Resurrection. Those who have part in the first resurrection are all the True Believers who have part in Christ's First Resurrection. They are the First Resurrection (the second being at Christ's return). Those who have died in Christ have gone to be with the Lord, having been raised with Christ to reign. That's the First Resurrection these martyrs have part in, which precludes the second death.

1st Corinthians 15:21-22

• "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

<Applause>

 

[mkgal1]

If John 5:24 had used anastasis anywhere in that verse, Amil might then have a good case for Revelation 20. My point is, not that John 5:24 doesn't describe a spiritual resurrection of sorts, but that anastasis doesn't appear to be involving spiritual resurrections in any of the verses it appears.

.....and that conclusion is an example of how interpreting Scripture in a word for word translation method can cause a person to miss what's being expressed in a conceptual way.

 

[mkgal1]

And we read the rest of the dead lived not again for 1000 years (verse 5). This also illustrates that this is not speaking about a future first resurrection, for there is one future resurrection of the just and the unjust. And it is not (nor can it be) the first. If this were indeed a literal number of years, then even all of the "rest of those who died" would have all had to die on the same year. Else they could not have died and not lived again for that literal thousand years. Did everybody (the rest of the dead) all die the same year? ..see how convoluted this gets?

Another good point.

ETA: there are actually some that believe this symbolic thousand years began at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but that same group doesn't believe the years ended after a literal thousand years.

 

[DavidPT]

Another good point.

ETA: there are actually some that believe this symbolic thousand years began at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but that same group doesn't believe the years ended after a literal thousand years.

His post was a bit too lengthy for my tastes, so I didn't bother reading all of it. So I will respond here to what you have him quoted as saying, since you found it to be a good point. Personally, reading what you quoted of him, I see no logic in his reasoning of that.

It would mean none of the rest of the dead are alive anytime during the thousand years. This would obviously mean they all died before the beginning of the thousand years, but at different times throughout. Initially there is one group, the dead as a whole. Part of that group of the dead lives again and reigns with Him a thousand years. The rest of that dead remain dead until after the thousand years expires.

 

[DavidPT]

.....and that conclusion is an example of how interpreting Scripture in a word for word translation method can cause a person to miss what's being expressed in a conceptual way.

In many cases I agree with you that it would be better to interpret in a conceptual way. But since I'm convinced there are sometimes patterns throughout the Bible, this would be one of those patterns. That being, anastasis appears to be expressing a literal resurrection everywhere it's used. This then should tell us what sense to understand it in Revelation 20 as well.

 

[mkgal1]

I just read this from Beth Moore (posted this morning):
From Beth,

2nd Corinthians 12 was my reading this morning. Ordinarily I’m so swept up by the portion on the third heaven, Paul’s thorn, and God’s power perfected in weakness. I miss the beauty in the rest of the chapter but this also captivated me today:

“I will most gladly spend & be spent for you.” (V.15)

In 2nd Corinthians 4:7-12, Paul described how servants of Christ carry “the death of Jesus in our body” so His life may also be displayed in us. This is the tie to 2nd Corinthians 12 ”So then, death is at work in us but life in you.” God at times uses what nearly kills us to stir up life in another.

This view of discipleship & servanthood so thoroughly counters our self-obsessed culture that it’s overlooked yet it beautifully echoes Christ’s words in John 15:12-13.”Love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this: to lay down his life for his friends.”

Stay with me a bit further because we’re heading to the place where the joy erupts. When I was writing Children of the Day, I memorized 1st and 2nd Thessalonians and there’s a verse in it that jumps out at me every time I recite it. "For now we live, if you are standing fast in the Lord." 1st Thessalonians 3:8.

Who do you know whose steadfastness in the Lord is such a joy to you that, no matter how God may call you to pour out your life so that person-or those people-can flourish in Christ, it is worth it? That their standing fast in Him makes you, though battered and bruised, feel alive?

It’s a gorgeous thing really. I feel this way about my daughters & grandchildren. I feel this way about sons and daughters in the faith. I feel this way when I get a letter from a woman getting on her feet with Jesus. Listen, if they’re standing, we’re living, brothers and sisters.

 

[DavidPT]

I am amazed sometimes at the scripture which proponents of the Premill doctrine are willing to ignore to make their doctrine work.

They redefine the whole Bible in order to have Christ ruling over a world where sin, and death remain after the Second Coming described in Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Whose names are written in the Book of Life, which is found below at the end of Revelation chapter 20?

Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

.

You are one to talk---lol. Look what you ignore in Zech 14 in order to make Amil allegedly work, as an example. There are clearly survivors of the nations which came against Jerusalem remaining post the 2nd coming, and that none of them are saved saints that put on immortality at the 2nd coming.

 

[TribulationSigns]

His post was a bit too lengthy for my tastes, so I didn't bother reading all of it.

Awww, poor baby. Are the 66 books of the whole Bible abit too lengthy for your taste, so you won't bother to study ALL of it? (wink). You should appreciate my testimony for it comes from God when I quoted His Word.

It would mean none of the rest of the dead are alive anytime during the thousand years. This would obviously mean they all died before the beginning of the thousand years, but at different times throughout. Initially there is one group, the dead as a whole. Part of that group of the dead lives again and reigns with Him a thousand years. The rest of that dead remain dead until after the thousand years expires.

Again, the "thousand years" are NOT to be understood as a literal time period - something that you start it somewhere on your calendar and then mark the day it will end exact 1,000 years before you declare that the period is when "rest of the dead" is not supposed to be alive at that time. That is absurd. You don't get it.

The number 10 and its multiples (100 or 1,000) are a symbolical number that means the "fullness of whatever is in view." In other words, those who are not born again, will physically die and their souls will remain in the grave in silence until Christ's return whenever that may be. The rest of the souls started with Seth back in Genesis. Therefore, the PURPOSE of this death will not be finished or become fullness UNTIL Christ returns. We have many SOULS of the unsaved dead from Old Testament and New Testament who have died and their souls are still in the grave today, but the souls who took part of the first resurrection (born again in christ - or filled with Holy Spirit), will go into heaven immediately upon their physical death and reign with Christ until Christ comes down from heaven to gather His Saints who will be still "alive and remain" at the Last Trump.

The last Trump itself will be the LAST TRUMPET signal for the rapture the Saints AND to resurrect the SOULS of the "rest of the dead" from their grave to be able to stand before Son of Man for Judgment. There will not be a time for 1,000 years kingdom after this because the 1,000 year millennial kingdom of Revelation 20 is what the church is all about! Jesus Christ did sit upon his throne and rule through His saints in the church since Pentecost where He have empowered them with power to bring Gospel to the ends of the earth. That is the millennial kingdom. Once Christ has finished sealing all of His people He intended to seal have been sealed, THEN Christ will return and the thousand years FOR the "rest of the dead" be finished when they will be resurrected to be judged. If they were not found to be part of the first resurrection (ie. their name not found in the book of life) will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death.