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Featured Is the 1st resurrection initially being applied before or after death?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    If it is after death only a bodily resurrection appears to be applicable. If it is before death only a spiritual resurrection appears to be applicable.

    and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

    and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

    This is the first resurrection



    The text states this----and I saw the souls of them

    Then the text goes on to state this----and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

    How should that be understood?

    Like such?

    and the souls of them lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

    Or like such instead?

    and the bodily resurrected martyrs lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

    One thing we do know is this, or at least we should if we don't. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years---equals this---This is the first resurrection.

    What does this at least tell us? That the first resurrection can't precede nor follow the thousand years. One can't reign with Christ a thousand years before the thousand years even begin. Nor can one reign with Christ a thousand years when the thousand years have expired. This would indicate, assuming the first resurrection is spiritual, meaning when one is initially saved in this age, no one can be saved during satan's little season in that case. The reason being, you can't have the first resurrection without the reigning of a thousand years. satan's little season is after the thousand years.


    The question then is this. The martyrs in Revelation 20:4, are they already reigning with Christ a thousand years when they are initially martyred? Or because they have been martyred, they then reign with Christ a thousand years at some later point in the future?

    The former would imply that the martyred are resurrected while they are still physically alive. The latter would imply they are resurrected after they have already physically died first. The former would fit a position such as Amil. The latter, a position such as Premil. The way the text reads to me, it is the latter. And I'm not just saying that because I'm Premil. I'm saying that because that is literally how the text reads to me.
     
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  2. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    The First resurrection is baptism.
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    If the martyrs in Revelation 20:4 are resurrected after death though, this would indicate they are baptized after death. I for one haven't heard of such a thing as that. I don't recall reading anywhere in the Bible that saints are baptized after death. The point being, the text seems to indicate they are resurrected after death, and not before death instead.
     
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I think it's a bit more involved than that.

    Here is something I have noted in the KJV.

    Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    and judgment was given to the saints of the most High---Daniel 7:22
    and judgment was given unto them----Revelation 20:4

    Revelation 20:4 also says this---And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them

    Daniel 7 says this---Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    Which appears to be the interpretation of this---Until the Ancient of days came(Daniel 7:22).

    Keeping in mind this----

    Daniel 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

    So IOW Daniel 7:22 is the interpretation of Daniel 7:9.

    John indicated he saw thrones in Revelation 20:4. That can be explained via Daniel 7:9. John also indicated they sat. Daniel 7:9 indicates only one being seen sitting. But if we go to the following in Revelation---

    Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
    4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    Could this be explaining the group John sees sitting per Revelation 20:4?

    If all of these things are connecting like I'm thinking they are, the timing of Revelation 20:4 would be after the beast has been cast into the LOF, that according to Daniel 7:11. And if Daniel 7:22 is the interpretation of Daniel 7:9, notice what verse 21 indicates.

    Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

    This appears to be meaning the 42 months shown in Revelation 13, IOW the GT.

    If we now look at the remainder of verse 22 we see this--- and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom---which then also gives us the timing of the beginning of the thousand years. Clearly, at least to me anyway, Daniel 7:22 is meaning at the start of the thousand years. Thus the thousand years follow the destruction of the Revelation 13 beast. And unless I'm missing something, Premil appears to be the only position that can fit the timing of these things.
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    @DavidPT,

    I think you need to look at the issue as Salvation is two parts. Jesus is our Redeemer.

    1. Redemption of the soul.
    2. Redemption of the body.

    Redemption of the soul
    is when a person receives the gospel and is borne again spiritually.

    Redemption of the body
    is the physical resurrection of the body, incorruptible. Or if a person is alive at the time, the changing of the body in a twinkling of an eye, incorruptible.

    We await the redemption of our bodies, completing our Salvation.

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
    __________________________________________________

    For them in Revelation 20:4-6, it is specifically referring to the great tribulation martyrs, who's souls are in the fifth seal. in Revelation 20:4-6, their bodies are physically resurrected. Completing their Salvation. And in their incorruptible bodies, they reign with Christ the thousand years here on earth.

    Differently, and before them, for everyone who have died in Christ over the past 2000 years, and them Christians alive at the time will receive their incorruptible bodies - when the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 takes place. Completing their Salvation.

    1Thessalonians4:15-18 takes place anytime between now and the beginning of the Day of Lord, which is triggered by the event of 2Thessalonians2:4, the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

    So it is....

    Anytime - rapture/resurrection 1Thessalonians4:15-18
    Beginning of the Millennium - the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, Revelation 20:4-6
    End of the Millennium - everyone else, resurrected for the Great White Throne judgment.

    Everyone can be saved, no matter when they are born, right up to the Great White Throne judgement.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  6. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Absolutely - but I was on my phone at the time.

    I do believe it could be.

    It may be helpful to go back a bit and discuss what happened at the cross and His resurrection before trying to connect all these passages. I'm not so sure that Rev 13 relates (in fact, I don't believe it is connected).

    From the language of our creeds - Jesus' death on the cross is described by the phrase "the harrowing of Sheol/hell". That's His descent into Sheol (or - as the BCP states - "He descended to the dead") and victory over death itself. The language of the Greek Orthodox resonates with me that He "trampled death by His death". This event is described in Mt 12:40; Acts 2:24, 31; Rom 10:7; Eph 4:9; Col 1:18; and possibly 1 Pt 3:18-19, 4:6.

    1 Peter 3:19 ~ And it was by the Spirit that he went to preach to the spirits in prison.

    Quoting the Episcopal Church:The story was a favorite theme for English mystery plays and art in the middle ages. Christ was portrayed as conquering Satan, and then victoriously leading out Adam and Eve, the prophets, and the patriarchs. The gates of hell cannot withstand Christ's power. Christ's victory was expressed in terms of words from Ps 24, "Lift up your heads, O gates; lift them high, O everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in." This language dramatizes the power of Christ's resurrection and shows Christ's ultimate victory over death. It also portrays the fulfillment of the theme of Christ as second Adam who reverses the tragedy of Adam's fall.

    King David's prophetic words about the first resurrection: Psalm 16:10 ~You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.

    Acts 2:29–31 ~
    “Brothers and sisters, I can speak confidently about the patriarch David. He died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this very day.
    Because he was a prophet, he knew that God promised him with a solemn pledge to seat one of his descendants on his throne. Having seen this beforehand, David spoke about the resurrection of Christ, that he wasn't abandoned to the grave, nor did his body experience decay.

    Quoting article by Joe Rigney:
    Following his death for sin, then, Jesus journeys to Hades, to the City of Death, and rips its gates off the hinges. He liberates Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, John the Baptist, and the rest of the Old Testament faithful, ransoming them from the power of Sheol (Psalm 49:15; 86:13; 89:48). They had waited there for so long, not having received what was promised, so that their spirits would be made perfect along with the saints of the new covenant (Hebrews 11:39–40; 12:23).

    After his resurrection, Jesus ascends to heaven and brings the ransomed dead with him.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  7. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Just a thought related to these passages: I've read that the testimonies of the prophets and the martyrs that had been killed *because of* their proclamations of Jesus being the Christ were the judgement itself. IOW.....in light of Christ's death & resurrection - people could then look back on what the prophets and martyrs had said about Him and hold it up to what He had done. Another way of putting it - after His death and resurrection and ascension into heaven.....the prophets/martyrs statements all throughout prior history were then basically saying, "I TOLD you so....".....and bringing judgement on the people.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    This may be a clear target to focus on as to timing.
     
  9. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I see this as their release from the "prison of the grave" and translation to Paradise/heaven. Aren't we ALL waiting for the final resurrection?
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Which one of these are you hoping for?

    Anytime - rapture/resurrection 1Thessalonians4:15-18
    Beginning of the Millennium - the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, Revelation 20:4-6
    End of the Millennium - everyone else, resurrected for the Great White Throne judgment.
     
  11. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Douggg, what does 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 plainly tell us? That the dead in Christ rise first. Are the martyrs seen in Revelation 20:4 Christ's or not? If they are, and I'm 100% certain they have to be, this obviously makes them part of the dead in Christ who rise first. How can it not? You appear to have 3 different resurrection events all taking place at different times. Yet there are only 2 different resurrection events taking place at different times. 1----when the dead in Christ rise first. 2----when the rest of the dead also live again.
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Jesus said it is only one event in John 5:27-30.

    .
     
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    In the 1Thessalonians4:15-18 event, the dead in Christ rise first - relevant to them who are alive being translated. Which is in the text.

    Which that event has to take place before the Day of the Lord begins (which is shortly followed by the great tribulation).

    Them in Revelation 20:4-6 are those who will have been "left behind", when the 1Thessalonians 4:15-18, resurrection/rapture takes place.

    Those "left behind" will turn to Jesus during the great tribulation, and them martyred are the ones in the 5th seal. They are the ones who's bodies are redeemed, resurrected, in Revelation 20:4-6.
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Can you give your def of one event, as in what this one event might look like. Logic says that if the dead in Christ rise first, the lost dead cannot also rise at the same time since this would make nonsense out of what first means. The text in 1 Thessalonians 4 doesn't say the dead in Christ and the lost dead rise first, it clearly says only the former. I can't speak for anyone else, but as to me, I believe in sticking to what any text in question might be saying, thus not adding to the text things not said in the text. I have a better chance of being correct when I do that. This doesn't mean I will always come to the correct conclusion about things every single time though.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    DavidPT, I think you may be reading Revelation 20 as there universally being only two resurrections. When the text is referring to resurrections of the millennium period.

    During the millennium period, those two resurrections are well defined regarding to exactly when.

    one at the start of the millennium - called the first resurrection (of that time period)

    the second at the end of millennium - for the great white throne judgment.
    __________________________________________________
    Differently,

    The Thessalonians5:15-18 resurrection/rapture is not of the millennium period, and is the escape in Luke 21:34-36. Which is commonly referred to the the rapture because in conversation the emphasis is on the translation of the living.

    The timing of that event is not knowing the day nor hour. It has to happen though before the beginning of the Day of the Lord beginning, because Christians are not appointed to wrath, but to receive salvation. Remember that Salvation is two part - redemption of the soul (already taken place in Christians) and redemption of the body.

    1Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. (redemption of the body is the completion of our salvation)

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (redemption of the body, in the rapture)

    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (referring back to the 1Thessalonians4:15-18, the dead in Christ them who's bodies sleep; and the living, them who bodies are awake)

    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    It is not my definition. It is the words of Christ found below.

    Jesus said below that it will happen within the same "hour", that "all" will come forth from the graves.

    Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    The resurrection of life is listed first above, and the resurrection of damnation is listed second.
    .
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    If one agrees the resurrection of 'the just' occurs first, followed by the resurrection of 'the unjust' occurring next, even if mere moments later, this still puts a gap between the two resurrection events. It wouldn't be the same as they all coming forth at the exact same moment in time. If there can be a gap of mere seconds or whatever, there can be a gap of hundreds of years just as well.

    Yet, no way can the resurrection of 'the unjust' even occur within moments of 'the just' to begin with. When Jesus returns there are still lost people as part of the beast's armies still physically alive and not even dead yet. And once they end up dead, they have to be raised back to life in order to be present at the GWTJ. Can't do that if the resurrection of the unjust already preceded their deaths.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  18. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Douggg, let's assume you are correct here. The dead in Christ that rise first, do they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years? Afterall, the text does say this---and so shall we ever be with the Lord(1 Thessalonians 4:17). BTW, that would also include those who are still alive and remain.


    I don't know how they cannot also be living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, unless 'and so shall we ever be with the Lord' doesn't actually literally mean what it plainly says.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Yes, they do reign with Christ a thousand years, here on earth. They are the saints returning with Jesus. The 10,000's of his saints in Jude (referencing Enoch's prophesy). And the Lord with his saints in Zechariah.


    Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    _______________________________________________________________

    The raptured/resurrected saints to happen anytime between now and when the Antichrist claims to be God, to escape having to go through the great tribulation - will return with Jesus as his saints, in their glorified incorruptible bodes.

    Differently, persons who go through the great tribulation, but who turn to Jesus and are martyred for not worshiping the beast or his image, will have their bodies resurrected at the start of the millennium.
    They will reign and rule with Jesus as well for the millennium.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
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