Is Purgatory real?

[victorinus]

Is Purgatory real?

yes -
just visit a nursing home

 

[Alithis]

No...



Yes... And all who believe Jesus and trust that He paid for our sins shall be gifted eternal salvation.. Those who don't will not be gifted Eternal salvation.. So don't believe in purgatory what ever you do...



Yes... If we believe Jesus and trust in His Blood to cover us..



We are made clean by believing 100% that his death cleans us 100%..

Incomplete... There is no forgiveness without repentance.you can have all the above but if you don't forsake that which you know is sin...you won't be saved.no one who continues to practice sin is if God.

 

[Adstar]

Incomplete... There is no forgiveness without repentance.you can have all the above but if you don't forsake that which you know is sin...you won't be saved.no one who continues to practice sin is if God.

Therefore all who sin are damned right?
Therefore you who still sin are damned by your own teaching right?

Unless that is you are prepared to claim that you no longer sin and that you have been sinless from the day you where saved?

If your willing to make such a declaration i can be assured you are not telling the truth and therefore are sinning by lying.. Either way you are self condemned.. Because you declare sinlessness in this flesh to be a requirement of salvation and you are not sinless.. Thus by your own preaching you are self condemned..

 

[Alithis]

yes -
just visit a nursing home

Cunning underhanded decieving.

You afirm in the positive...even though it's untrue..as in a lie.
Then cover it with a joke..but the lie is down none the less.

 

[Dartman]

Correct.
Whenever satan or a demon appears as an angel of light or as the pagan goddess worshipped by 'mortals',
it is completely death-dealing deception and blatantly contrary to all Scripture,
and it is supporting all that is opposed to God's Word for Salvation - the trick by the enemy is not at all benign (/harmless, no) , but is insidiously pernicious and destructive to true faith in Jesus.

Exactly. Any lie, about basic Gospel, is destructive to true faith in Jesus;
2 Cor 11:3-5 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

 

[frettr00]

God has shown some saints visions of purgatory. One of these saints in recent times was St. Faustina. Holy Souls Sodality

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

St. Nicholas Center ::: The Real Santa

Is St Nicholas omniscient? Does he know when I'm sleeping and when I'm awake?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Saint Nicholas is real.

Santa Claus is not.

 

[Vicomte13]

Santa Claus is not.

But God and Purgatory are.

 

[Halbhh]

Perfectly, in line with all Scripture, all (including what's in your post) has already been
simply and rightly explained, as YHWH "gave understanding of all Scripture" , to all He called and chose and appointed to know and be His messengers,
but few ever hear or accept it due to the overwhelming influence (perhaps, ....) of pagan ideas and practices that infiltrated the church in the first 1200 years, including so many greek myths and ideas and practices.

So many have not heard the scriptures, even the gospels, thinking that hearing a passage or 20 is the same as knowing what is there waiting for all that would hear/read. People often have the entirely wrong idea that they already know what is in the gospels, and sometimes I wonder how many will listen and want to learn from Him.

 

[Halbhh]

Hades/Hell is the grave. It is the dust. It represents all the dead, waiting for resurrection.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-30 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not discussing literal death, it is discussing the punishment of the nation of Israel, the Jews (the rich man), for rejecting Jesus (the one raised from the dead), and the Abrahamic promises (Abraham's bosom) being made available to the Gentiles (Lazarus)

I think you mean Matt 18;
Matt 18:34-35 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

This passage is much like several others, that make the point "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors".

I do NOT believe Jesus intends for us to try and symbolize every detail in the parable. For example; Matt 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

I don't believe we need to assign figurative meanings to the wife, the children and his possessions. I believe Jesus was relating elements in the parable, that make sense in the "back story", but are not intended to convey a unique, figurative meaning.

When we read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, we get the message -- how we must not ignore the poor and needy brothers and sisters of ours, and that if we do ignore them, then we will suffer the fate of the rich man, in consequence (as laid out more fully in Matthew chapter 25). But getting that main message doesn't end what we may gain, later, if we come back, since over and over we experience that when we return to the gospels to old passages we read, even several times, there is more we gain and learn, new things awaiting us. We can't know that at first reading, since the main message is so powerful and transformative, and I find so completely engrossing and compelling to what I need to learn that other details are not thought about then. And still again the 2nd or 3rd time, often. But, later, sometimes years, sometimes sooner, we we might come back, and read with 'ears that hear' to learn more, new things. In the parable of the prodigal son we learn the crucial message that even though the son went away, that in real and humble repentance he is entirely accepted back, a key, central and crucial message we each and every one need to absorb and know, because we most every one will need to do exactly what the prodigal son did, and truly repent in humility, so that we are accepted back. It is so compelling and huge that there isn't room for more until we have truly absorbed this and truly implemented it fully in our own life, here, perhaps today for many. But, once this is fully and truly learned, then later in time, we can come back for more, and learn more, and as you likely know, another message that is valuable is that of the faithful brother that protests the rich reward given to the repentant prodigal as compared to himself, and there's a good lesson for many in what is said to Him. But.....is that all? To know, one could only truly humble oneself and read through again, with fresh openness to learn, at the feet of the Teacher, Christ. I often suggest to people even that have read through a gospel fully, that they very much need to come again, and read fully, from the first verse, because there is so much awaiting them, if they have not read it fully in years, and sometimes I find more awaiting me in the same chapter even when I've read it a week or two earlier, because at the earlier time I gained a valuable thing or two, but more yet awaits. So also I expect with every parable, that more awaits, and I can only gain it if I am humble to read it again, even if the 12th or 15th time in my life (such as because of passage readings in the church during a service), but now I am reading through, truly open to learn new things, and because I am changing over time, by His work on me, more awaits for me now, today.

Several times in the gospels, as you know, Christ refers to some who are dead as "asleep". But the rich man in Hades is not, of course, and while I thought it a parable, even a metaphor for years, now I find Christ refers to "Hades" more than once, as I just ran into it just this last hour, reading in Matthew 11, and it doesn't mean sleep there. We are not necessarily given to know all mysteries, but rather the key things for salvation, and we do not have to know if Hades is more than being asleep in the grave (or....for a part of us, instead of the whole) (did you notice in your Rev 20 quote above that there are 2 locations 'death and Hades', not one?), so in a way this is not key at all for either one of us, not at all, so long as we are obeying Christ due to our real faith in Him (that if we have real faith, then we will increasingly obey His commands, following His way) in that He told us to "love one another" and to welcome the least of these brothers and sisters of mine when a stranger, and such commands that He gave us He indicated Himself in His own words are required of us to gain Life.

 

[Halbhh]

Wow..way to misquote and misrepresent scripture.
It doesn't say that at all

Hi, I was reading through all the posts in that page and noticed you responding to someone (not me) who had written a variety of things, but along with the several things they wrote, there were 2 quotes in the middle which I recognized from John chapter 6, and though you may have been responding to something else, I just wanted to testify to you that when I recently read John chapter 6 a couple or 3 weeks ago, it was one of the most amazing things I've read in years (which is saying something actually, since I read in the Bible routinely). And this is even though I had already read the full Gospel of John through at least 3 times in my life already. Even though I had already read it, it was still amazing, this chapter, and I want to testify to you about that, so that you could gain what I've gained, just by reading through, slowly (even from the first verse, since the miracles help set the stage, thus even from the first verse, through this deep and rich chapter). There is so much richness in the gospels that we can never absorb it all in one or 5, or even 10 years usually, but as we age we can come back and learn entirely new things we were not the age for before.

 

[Mountainmike]

Pray until God answers, trusting in Jesus.
Pergatery is not at all real - it is complete deception,
and there is a lot more deception as well -- remember Jesus says there are many false teachers, and false prophets, and false gospels,
not many true.
Read His Word - that is the only standard we can be sure of.
Man's traditions have sent billions of souls to judgment,
and ruined many multitudes of souls.

Mans traditions - like those of the reformation including "sola scriptura" (or solo scritpura) are easily disproven by logic , scripture and history.

It is easy to prove that you cannot do a "yeshuaslavejeff" and choose your own interpretation of scripture easily proven by the fact that protestants disgagree on every aspect of doctrine with mutually exclusive doctrines of everything from eucharist, baptism, salvation, moral issues, marriage - you name it they disagree on it. And when they dislike a new interpretation they schism again.
So history proves private interpretation is NOT enough. It does not work.

Why?

First because those who think scripture and their power to interpret it is enough - have ignored the - authority of the church, provable from scripture - to determine interpretation of doctrine as"the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" "the household of God" given the power to "bind and loose" which it does in councils. So says scripture! But for these councils you would not HAVE a creed or new testament. What they think - matters.

And second because the "yeshuaslave jeffs" hopelessly misunderstand the biblical meaning of tradition. He confuses it with the contemporary meaning.


It means "Paradosis" was the greek word. Handing down of the faith "by word of mouth and letter" LONG before there was a new testament, and even when there was , few could read and own books. So Jesus did not give us a book - that came later - he gave us disciples "to hand down" the faith - the meaning of paradosis , now translated as tradition.

Tradition "handing down" was the way jesus chose to hand on the faith!

So what do we know about purgatory?

1/ That the jews held prayers for the dead "kaddish" -
2/ That these are referred in scripture. Jesus and Paul both quoted the septuagint (greek old testament whcih history shows contained maccabees, despite reformers determination to kick it out, so maccabees was scripture as far as Jesus and Paul were concerned) that too refers to prayers for the dead.

3/ These prayers are noted by such as Tertullian.referred by early fathers long before the councils established new testament.

So Where are souls where prayers would be effective?
To whom was jesus preaching when he "descended into hell"?

In the end ask yourself ONE question -
are YOU pure enough for heaven as you are?
Are you really arrogant enough to think so?

All the ancient churches accept the need for purgation (a process) - referred by catholics as a "state of being" as much as a place "purgatory" by orthodox as "Purgation - a process". Where souls are "Purified as if by fire"

Some souls have been shown visions of purgatory, such as the fatima, kibeho visionaries. So said our lady "many souls perish because they have none to pray for them".

Purgatory is what that authority says using the power given to "bind and loose" on doctrine. The church- the "pillar and foundation of truth" has spoken on this.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So many have not heard the scriptures, even the gospels, thinking that hearing a passage or 20 is the same as knowing what is there waiting for all that would hear/read. People often have the entirely wrong idea that they already know what is in the gospels, and sometimes I wonder how many will listen and want to learn from Him.

So? What's the point ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

yes -
just visit a nursing home

If it's under the control of the enemy.
Then yes, it is completely >

Cunning underhanded decieving.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

pure enough for heaven

Remember that God's Word says you are not pure enough, and
only the blood of Jesus TODAY before you die is able to cleanse you from all sin.
After you die, any sin unforgiven remains against you.
Exactly as it is written all through Scripture.

Remember that the fairy tale deceptions of the pagan practices came from outside of Christ,
not from heaven,
with the purpose of destroying souls, not helping them.

 

[Albion]

It is easy to prove that you cannot do a "yeshuaslavejeff" and choose your own interpretation of scripture easily proven by the fact that protestants disgagree on every aspect of doctrine with mutually exclusive doctrines of everything from eucharist, baptism, salvation, moral issues, marriage - you name it they disagree on it. And when they dislike a new interpretation they schism again.
So history proves private interpretation is NOT enough. It does not work.

"Private interpretation" is a Catholic myth, not a lot different from the idea some people have of Catholicism teaching that it's OK to sin as much as you want so long as you go to confession.

In other words, it's cherished as an insult to be used on the other side, even though it's completely unfounded.

It means "Paradosis" was the greek word. Handing down of the faith "by word of mouth and letter" LONG before there was a new testament, and even when there was , few could read and own books. So Jesus did not give us a book - that came later - he gave us disciples "to hand down" the faith - the meaning of paradosis , now translated as tradition.

Tradition "handing down" was the way jesus chose to hand on the faith!

If that standard were really applied, nothing would qualify as a doctrine by Tradition! But what happens is that any legend or opinion that gains some sort of a following is liable to have the church leaders wave the word "Tradition" at it and claim it as Apostolic.

So what do we know about purgatory?

It was an invention of a church council in the late Middle Ages, shortly before the sale of indulgences (which have meaning only if there is a doctrine about a Purgatory) became the issue that touched off the Refofrmation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

" Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"
i.e. God, YHWH, opened the true ekklesia's understanding that they might understand the scripture.

That does not include most people that lived after them,
and
of course it does not include anyone who follows fairy tales from pagan religions, or who follows traditions that Jesus personally warns all the disciples for all time to avoid. Those who follow another god, do not receive the understanding that the ekklesia receive from God,
unless
sometime, they repent, turn to God and away from sin.

Everyone, from everywhere, in order to be saved, must love God
and
trust Him, not trust traditions from other gods,
and
everyone, everywhere, everyone born on earth, is consigned under sin,
so
that everyone, everywhere, might be saved by grace, IF they repent.

We all must repent, and seek God's Kingdom every day.

 

[Halbhh]

So? What's the point ?

Just agreeing with you in a way. People need to actually read in order to have a chance to understand, and that's never from just looking up verses to support a point of view, but instead I think only if they have faith, and do complete reading, and even just reading a passage is not enough, unless they have fully read through at least once, with a real openness to learn. Many are blocked by trying to support a doctrine, which is not a learning attitude, I think.

 

[Northwest Savant]

Mans traditions - like those of the reformation including "sola scriptura" (or solo scritpura) are easily disproven by logic , scripture and history.

It is easy to prove that you cannot do a "yeshuaslavejeff" and choose your own interpretation of scripture easily proven by the fact that protestants disgagree on every aspect of doctrine with mutually exclusive doctrines of everything from eucharist, baptism, salvation, moral issues, marriage - you name it they disagree on it. And when they dislike a new interpretation they schism again.
So history proves private interpretation is NOT enough. It does not work.

Why?

First because those who think scripture and their power to interpret it is enough - have ignored the - authority of the church, provable from scripture - to determine interpretation of doctrine as"the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" "the household of God" given the power to "bind and loose" which it does in councils. So says scripture! But for these councils you would not HAVE a creed or new testament. What they think - matters.

And second because the "yeshuaslave jeffs" hopelessly misunderstand the biblical meaning of tradition. He confuses it with the contemporary meaning.


It means "Paradosis" was the greek word. Handing down of the faith "by word of mouth and letter" LONG before there was a new testament, and even when there was , few could read and own books. So Jesus did not give us a book - that came later - he gave us disciples "to hand down" the faith - the meaning of paradosis , now translated as tradition.

Tradition "handing down" was the way jesus chose to hand on the faith!

So what do we know about purgatory?

1/ That the jews held prayers for the dead "kaddish" -
2/ That these are referred in scripture. Jesus and Paul both quoted the septuagint (greek old testament whcih history shows contained maccabees, despite reformers determination to kick it out, so maccabees was scripture as far as Jesus and Paul were concerned) that too refers to prayers for the dead.

3/ These prayers are noted by such as Tertullian.referred by early fathers long before the councils established new testament.

So Where are souls where prayers would be effective?
To whom was jesus preaching when he "descended into hell"?

In the end ask yourself ONE question -
are YOU pure enough for heaven as you are?
Are you really arrogant enough to think so?

All the ancient churches accept the need for purgation (a process) - referred by catholics as a "state of being" as much as a place "purgatory" by orthodox as "Purgation - a process". Where souls are "Purified as if by fire"

Some souls have been shown visions of purgatory, such as the fatima, kibeho visionaries. So said our lady "many souls perish because they have none to pray for them".

Purgatory is what that authority says using the power given to "bind and loose" on doctrine. The church- the "pillar and foundation of truth" has spoken on this.

Mans traditions - like those of the reformation including "sola scriptura" (or solo scritpura) are easily disproven by logic , scripture and history.

I am not alone in believing that sola scriptura (scripture alone) are God's FINAL and FULL revelation to mankind. While it obvious that God's Word was spoken at one time, those oral traditions that originally were spoken by the apostles have now been written down to be read. We do not need to spread the Gospel by remembering what the Apostle Paul told someone, who told another, who told another. We simply read the New Testament Scriptures which are the written words of the Apostle. Nothing outside of Scripture is needed. I don't believe "tradition" is of no value. The work performed by the many councils of the early church in which interpretations and pronouncements are of value. However, that work is not "apostolic", and therefore, is not authoritative in the same manner as Scripture. That doesn't mean that protestants disregard all tradition though. Most protestants would probably disagree that all forms of tradition are infallable, however, they will agree that Scripture is infallable. No church has has the authority to create new doctrines that are contrary to Scripture. Every statement of tradition must be tested if it is true to the Bible. An example of "apostolic" expression is in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The apostle Paul states here that his writings were inspired by God, and therefore are authoritative, because they were not from fallible men, but instead by the infallible Holy Spirit. God used Paul as the pen to communicate His Word to us. The Bible alone, because it is not man-made like creeds and traditions, is our FINAL authority. Christians need no other source for matters of faith and practicing our beliefs.

In Mark 7:1-13, Jesus answered the Pharisees regarding the Jewsih traditions, finally stating in verse 13:

"... making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

In Colossians 2:8, Paul states:

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

The church in Colossae was having problems with Jewish legalism influencing the church, and Paul was warning the Colossians that their principles should be based upon the Word of God in Scripture.

So what do we know about purgatory?

1/ That the jews held prayers for the dead "kaddish" -
2/ That these are referred in scripture. Jesus and Paul both quoted the septuagint (greek old testament whcih history shows contained maccabees, despite reformers determination to kick it out, so maccabees was scripture as far as Jesus and Paul were concerned) that too refers to prayers for the dead.

The writer of Maccabees states in 2 Maccabees 2:23:

all this, which has been set forth by Jason of Cyrene in five volumes, we shall attempt to condense into a single book.

and in 2 Maccabees 15:38:

If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that was the best I could do.

Making it pretty clear that the book is not to be considered inspired by God. Maccabees can not be Scripture since it is not inspired by God, nor was it written by a prophet or apostle. That is one reason why the books of Maccabees has not been included in the Protestant Bible. Also, nowhere in the New Testament, is there any quote from any of the books of the Apocrypha as Scripture as opposed to the many quotes from the canonical books of the Old Testament that were in the Septuagint at that time. Furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church didn't even consider the Apocrypha books as canonized until the 16th century, following the Protestant Reformation. If the Septuagint that Jesus and Paul read from included the Apocrypha, then why did the Roman Catholic Church wait 1,500 years to canonize the books? Also, there is no evidence that the translation of the Septuagint used by Jesus and Paul included the Apocrypha. Scholars believe that the Apocrypha wasn't added to the Septuagint around the 4th century since no earlier manuscripts of the Septuagint include it.

All the ancient churches accept the need for purgation (a process) - referred by catholics as a "state of being" as much as a place "purgatory" by orthodox as "Purgation - a process". Where souls are "Purified as if by fire"

There is no evidence that any of the "ancient" churches accepted the doctrine of purgatory. The doctrine arose because the Roman Catholic Church views justification differently than Protestants. Because in the Roman Catholic Church, a believer is not considered justified as righteous once and for all by Jesus at the cross, that believer must become righteous through purgatory before God will allow to enter heaven. Protestants believe that There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1). We're not cleaned in a fire of purgatory, we're cleaned by the blood of Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, we read:

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

And in Hebrews 10:14, we read:

For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Scripture tells us that there is no need for purgatory!