Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[IamAdopted]

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her [according] to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
Judges 11:39

You forgot to put what was the custon.. Here it is..

39At the end of two months she returned to her father, who did to her according to the vow which he had made; and she had no relations with a man. Thus it became a custom in Israel, 40that the daughters of Israel went yearly to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in the year.

 

[IamAdopted]

She is an icon? Please explain this to me.

She is an Icon for both what?

 

[HisKid1973]

I still wonder why bring it up that Joseph didn't know Mary till after Jesus was born..What didn't he know and why was it after Jesus was born?

 

[FrauleinElsa]

I still wonder why bring it up that Joseph didn't know Mary till after Jesus was born..What didn't he know and why was it after Jesus was born?

I'm pretty sure it means sex in this case. You could see why it would be after Jesus was born, right?

 

[IamAdopted]

THere would be no reason for Mary to remain a virgin. She was married to Joseph.. Mary to remain a virgin has no bearing on Why Christ came to earth to pay our ransom for Sin. Mary to remain a virgin has no bearing on the Church.. For it is through Christ that the Church was born. Not through Mary. So there is no sound reason why Mary would need to remain a virgin. For even Married women today carry the Spirit of Christ.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

THere would be no reason for Mary to remain a virgin. She was married to Joseph.. Mary to remain a virgin has no bearing on Why Christ came to earth to pay our ransom for Sin. Mary to remain a virgin has no bearing on the Church.. For it is through Christ that the Church was born. Not through Mary. So there is no sound reason why Mary would need to remain a virgin. For even Married women today carry the Spirit of Christ.

, sister!

 

[vrunca]

Luther wrote on the Virginity of Mary:

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
​

 

[vrunca]

The French reformer John Calvin (1509-1564) also held that Mary was the Mother of God.

It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor. ... Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary as at the same time the eternal God. (Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348, 35.)
​

Calvin also up held the perpetual virginity of Mary, as did the Swiss reformer, Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531), who wrote:

I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)
​

 

[FrauleinElsa]

The French reformer John Calvin (1509-1564) also held that Mary was the Mother of God.

It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor. ... Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary as at the same time the eternal God. (Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348, 35.)​

Calvin also up held the perpetual virginity of Mary, as did the Swiss reformer, Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531), who wrote:

I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)​

I am not about to believe the doctrines of men on this. The Bible says He had siblings, which totally demolishes the 'perpetual virgininty' doctrine. Why is it so important that she remained a pure, intact virgin? Sex with your spouse is not wrong. And the C .C.'s teaching on this would imply that they think sex is dirty and immoral. Please expain this.

 

[Honibee]

I am not about to believe the doctrines of men on this. The Bible says He had siblings, which totally demolishes the 'perpetual virgininty' doctrine. Why is it so important that she remained a pure, intact virgin? Sex with your spouse is not wrong. And the C .C.'s teaching on this would imply that they think sex is dirty and immoral. Please expain this.

These would be my thoughts and question, as well...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Bright got those off of SSPX or Trad sites who do think prots burn in hell... I don't know what else to tell any of you.

He sets up everything and takes it all out of context, provides nothing from actual Church teaching but only refernces extreme Marian devotional material in order to confuse you all.

He cites sources like SSPX sites in order that you will visit them and believe this is a site that the Church approves of, its not though.

The Church does not teach that those who are not devoted to Mary are in danger to lose their soul. These are the opinions of some popes and spiritual writers but the popes are not speaking in the capacity of pope, just as a ordinary spiritual writer.

I do also believe those who really disdain Mary are prolly on the wrong path thinking they are on the right one, but that's my opinion.

Like the pastors who said that God punished the Gulf Coast by sending them Katrina. it opinions, it's what they think, it's not doctrines.

I was talking about differences in writtings of the earliest church fathers, as opposed to later writings of the ECF's, some 200-300 years later.

 

[vrunca]

Bible (RSV). The phrase "Mary ... mother" appears in the NT 9 times, Brethren appears 25 times. Nowhere do the words "Mary('s) ... sons", or "Mary ... lived" appear in Holy Scripture.

MT 27:56 certainly establishes a different Mary as the mother of James and Joseph. Also cross-reference Mark 15:40. The ONLY Son of Mary mentioned in the Bible is Jesus Christ, our Lord.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/pv.html

 

[Uphill Battle]

No... Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaeus... they all lived during the apostolic generation.

Veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52

"[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever."
Protoevangelium of John,6:2(A.D. 150),in ANF,VIII:362
"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him."
Justin Martyr,Dialogue with Trypho,100(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:249
"[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe."
Melito de Sardo,Easter Homily(c.A.D. 177),in PAT,I:244

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455

hmmmmn.... you notice something missing from these passages?

any evidence that PV was believed, any evidence that IC was believed, any evidence that Marian sinlesness was believed.

No, that crept in later.

 

[vrunca]

The "brothers" of the Lord. Neither Aramaic, the language Jesus probably spoke, nor Hebrew has a separate word for cousin. In reality the term, brothers, was commonly used in the Bible to describe close family members including cousins and uncles. Lot, for example was Abraham's nephew. He was the son of Abraham's brother Haran. Yet in Genesis 14:14, Lot is depicted as Abraham's brother. In Mt 29:15 Jacob is called the brother of his uncle Laban. Again in 1 Chron 23:21-22 the daughters of Eleazar married their brethren. This is not possible because Eleazar had no sons. These brethren were really their cousins, the sons of Cis. Cis was Eleazar's brother.

We learn from other Biblical passages that the word brother even had a broader use. In the case of the forty-two brethren of King Achaziah (2 Kings 10:13-14), the expression is used to refer to mere kinsman, not even close relatives. Similar uses are found in: Dt 23:7; Jer 34:9. Brother was also used to describe unrelated people, such as a friend (1 Kings 9:13, 20:32; and 2 Sam 1:26). In Amos 1:9 the word is used to describe an ally.
In the passages that refer to the brothers of the Lord, Mt 12: 46-47, Mk 3:31-32, and Lk 8:19 all seem to be relating the same incident. The use of the word brothers, as we have already seen, is not persuasive that Mary had other biological children.
Specific brothers are named in two passages. In Mt 13:55 James and Joseph and Simon and Judas are listed. James and Joseph are identified in Mt 27:56 as the son of another Mary, probably Mary of Clophas found in Jn 19:25. Simon appears to be Simon the Cananean of Mt 10:4. Judas is called the son of James in Lk 6:16 and Acts 1:13. The second listing of brothers occurs in Mk 6:3. They are James and Joses and Judas and Simon. James and Joses are identified in Mt 15:40 as the sons of another Mary. This is probably the same Mary discussed above who appears in Jn 19:25. Judas and Simon appear in Matthew's list (Mt 13:55).

http://www.totustuus.com/virgin.htm

 

[vrunca]

"Until." The problem with this understanding is that it forces a modern English use of until on the Bible. In the Bible the Greek and Hebrew words for until means only that some action did not happen to a certain point. Scholars are in agreement on this point. For example, Dr. William Hendriksen, the former Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan writes: "This conclusion cannot be based merely upon the negative plus "until." That wording does not always introduce an event (in this case: she gave birth to a son) whereby the earlier situation (the couple had no sexual relations) is reversed (they now begin to have sexual relations)." From The Gospel of Matthew, p. 144.
Consider this quotation from Samuel: "And so Saul's daughter Michal was childless until the day of her death (2 Sam 6:23)." Are we to conclude that she bore children after her death? How about the raven released from the ark? We read that the raven "flew back and forth until the waters dried off from the earth (Gn 8:7)." Does that mean the raven returned? Other examples can be seen in Dt 34:6; 1 Macc 5:54 and Ps 109:1 [RSV 110:1].

http://www.totustuus.com/virgin.htm

 

[FrauleinElsa]

These would be my thoughts and question, as well...

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

 

[Uphill Battle]

The historical facts are that Joseph was an elder man with older children whose wife had died. He was likely a well established elder of his church also. Mary was raised in the temple, as she had been dedicated by her parents. According with Hebrew tradition. There were temple virgins, the equivalent of a nun in some aspects. In the OT there is some scripture on the virgins who attended the temple doors when people came. So it was likely a tradition that was carried on within the temple society.

As was traditional the virgins were betrothed so they would have someone to care for them as well as the woman benefiting by experiencing normal family life. IOW being out in the world. The elders thought it important.

But as I said, none of this is of any private interpretation or matter of deception. The history is there for the reading.

non of this is historical fact. Sorry. There is a tradition that it is so. Not fact.

Mary, who gave birth to the Incarnate Son of God would not have sexual relations with Joseph.

If we understand that the Lord did not have actual blood relatives, is because He was of a single mother and single birth as the Messiah.

Joseph Married Mary. this is scriptural fact.

How about some scripture.

Here is the custom beginning.

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her [according] to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
Judges 11:39

This Psalm gives the order of a worship service of the temple and these are all clergy performing. In Israel, only Levites attended to the temple. The instrument players also played when the sacrifice was slain, portraying the zeal with which they would kill their Messiah. No other time during a solemn assembly were instruments played.

The singers went before, the players on instruments [followed] after; among [them were] the damsels playing with timbrels. Ps. 68:25

the passage you list in Judges is being misrepresented. this girl MOURNED the fact that she would never have a husband, due t the foolish and rash promise of Jephthah. There is no vow to remain a virgin.

the Psalm is being misrepresented as well. Damsels were playing. Nowhere does this speak of a vow of continuous virginity. They were virgins THEN.

Luther wrote on the Virginity of Mary:

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. ... Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer's The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)​

What Luther believed about the virginity of Mary is irrelevant. Same with Calvin and Zwingli.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

What Luther believed
about the virginity of Mary is irrelevant. Same with Calvin and Zwingli.

It is irrelevent.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Uphill Battle
What Luther believed
about the virginity of Mary is irrelevant. Same with Calvin and Zwingli.

So what writings would be relevant outside the Scriptures.

1 Peter 4:7 And of all things the end hath come nigh [#1448]; be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,

 

[FrauleinElsa]

So what writings would be relevant outside the Scriptures.

1 Peter 4:7 And of all things the end hath come nigh [#1448]; be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,

That is so not what we meant.