Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[HisBelovedMelody]

And Why would Mary need to remain a Virgin?

OH you had to go and ask didn't ya??

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Knowledge3
Mary, as a virgin did not have sexual relations with Joseph.

And neither did Jesus have actual blood relatives.

according to some pope years ago...NOT according to the Bible.

So it was a Pope that started it? We know Paul didn't.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Mary, as a virgin did not have sexual relations with Joseph.

And neither did Jesus have actual blood relatives.

You have no PROOF of that! Stop telling me what you believe as if it were fact. The only way you'll convince me short of God telling me Himself is if we were to hop in a time machine and actually go and find them and talk to them ourselves. Don't see that happening any time soon. And forgive me if I don't want to take your word for it. I just don't believe that.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

You are the expert on the writers the CC has called "Early Church Fathers," not me, but I've never seen any snippet from anyone who lived during the time of the Apostles who said anything about Mary that Protestants wouldn't agree with.

Now, beginning around the mid Third Century, then I think there are some differnces. But, of course, none of those writters ever met an Apostle or Mary - or anyone who did. And of course, the dogmatization of some of these Marian views are amazingly late - Protestants are often shocked by how late.

But I'm not equating my lack of embrace of some Catholic Marian dogmas (I don't reject them either) with my devotion for Mary - which is squarely based on Scripture.



Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah

No... Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaeus... they all lived during the apostolic generation.

All the Apostles were died by around 100 AD.

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52

As I said in my post.



Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[Teke]

Yeah, Joseph would allow that. Have you ever heard of any man saying to his wife, "It's okay sweetie if we never have sex." Uh-huh. Besides Jesus had siblings. I know Catholics don't agree with that. Well I don't agree that they don't believe that. To say that she remained a virgin implies that the C.C. believes that there is something inherently wrong about sex. I think that speaks more of the the C.C.'s view of sex and sexuality more than anything. Also, there is absolutely no evidence to support that theory too. So, that's my belief because it's what the Protestant church teaches and I'm not going to defend it. All I'll do is end up arguing.

The historical facts are that Joseph was an elder man with older children whose wife had died. He was likely a well established elder of his church also. Mary was raised in the temple, as she had been dedicated by her parents. According with Hebrew tradition. There were temple virgins, the equivalent of a nun in some aspects. In the OT there is some scripture on the virgins who attended the temple doors when people came. So it was likely a tradition that was carried on within the temple society.

As was traditional the virgins were betrothed so they would have someone to care for them as well as the woman benefiting by experiencing normal family life. IOW being out in the world. The elders thought it important.

But as I said, none of this is of any private interpretation or matter of deception. The history is there for the reading.

 

[Knowledge3]

You have no PROOF of that! Stop telling me what you believe as if it were fact. The only way you'll convince me short of God telling me Himself is if we were to hop in a time machine and actually go and find them and talk to them ourselves. Don't see that happening any time soon. And forgive me if I don't want to take your word for it. I just don't believe that.

Mary, who gave birth to the Incarnate Son of God would not have sexual relations with Joseph.

If we understand that the Lord did not have actual blood relatives, is because He was of a single mother and single birth as the Messiah.

 

[IamAdopted]

OH you had to go and ask didn't ya??

Tee hee did I open a can of worms??

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

You have no PROOF of that! Stop telling me what you believe as if it were fact. The only way you'll convince me short of God telling me Himself is if we were to hop in a time machine and actually go and find them and talk to them ourselves. Don't see that happening any time soon. And forgive me if I don't want to take your word for it. I just don't believe that.

GOOD for you. That is cause it isn't true. I have a relative that is Arabic/Palestinian. They do NOT refer to cousins etc as 'brothers'. Brother is brother. PERIOD. SO...

 

[IamAdopted]

Mary, who gave birth to the Incarnate Son of God would not have sexual relations with Joseph.

If we understand that the Lord did not have actual blood relatives, is because He was of a single mother and single birth as the Messiah.

Why would she need to remain a virgin? She is not the one with whom we receive salvation.. Jesus is..

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Teke and Knowledge...

GET real. OH forget it..one of those things not to go around and around about.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

The historical facts are that Joseph was an elder man with older children whose wife had died. He was likely a well established elder of his church also. Mary was raised in the temple, as she had been dedicated by her parents. According with Hebrew tradition. There were temple virgins, the equivalent of a nun in some aspects. In the OT there is some scripture on the virgins who attended the temple doors when people came. So it was likely a tradition that was carried on within the temple society.

As was traditional the virgins were betrothed so they would have someone to care for them as well as the woman benefiting by experiencing normal family life. IOW being out in the world. The elders thought it important.

But as I said, none of this is of any private interpretation or matter of deception. The history is there for the reading.

Mary, who gave birth to the Incarnate Son of God would not have sexual relations with Joseph.

If we understand that the Lord did not have actual blood relatives, is because He was of a single mother and single birth as the Messiah.

I don't believe any of that. And your assertion that Mary was consecrated to God is absurd. Women were not put into temple service. They were not even allowed to touch the Torah, due to times of un-cleanness shall we call it. Temple service was a man's job. Not for women.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

it is there for the reading if you want to read catholic um....stuff....for lack of a better word.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

There were temple virgins, the equivalent of a nun in some aspects.

Jewish nuns? Yeah, sure, uh-huh, whatever.

 

[Teke]

And please share what we should concentrate on... Please share with us What other than Jesus birth that Mary has to do with salvation or holiness.

She is an icon of both. Completely separating herself for God to dwell in her and with her. We can't even comprehend such a reality. Which is why we have theology.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Mary, who gave birth to the Incarnate Son of God would not have sexual relations with Joseph.

If we understand that the Lord did not have actual blood relatives, is because He was of a single mother and single birth as the Messiah.

GOOD for you. That is cause it isn't true. I have a relative that is Arabic/Palestinian. They do NOT refer to cousins etc as 'brothers'. Brother is brother. PERIOD. SO...

No, they don't do they?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There were temple virgins, the equivalent of a nun in some aspects.

As long as they are not "robbers".

(Young) Matthew 21:13 and he saith to them, `It hath been written, My House a house of prayer shall be called, but ye did make it a den of robbers.'

Zech 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the House of the LORD of hosts.

 

[IamAdopted]

She is an icon of both. Completely separating herself for God to dwell in her and with her. We can't even comprehend such a reality. Which is why we have theology.

She is an icon? Please explain this to me.

 

[Teke]

How about some scripture.

Here is the custom beginning.

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her [according] to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
Judges 11:39

This Psalm gives the order of a worship service of the temple and these are all clergy performing. In Israel, only Levites attended to the temple. The instrument players also played when the sacrifice was slain, portraying the zeal with which they would kill their Messiah. No other time during a solemn assembly were instruments played.

The singers went before, the players on instruments [followed] after; among [them were] the damsels playing with timbrels. Ps. 68:25

 

[Teke]

She is an icon? Please explain this to me.

A picture, a depiction. Something you can see and relate to in some way.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

How about some scripture.

Here is the custom beginning.

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her [according] to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
Judges 11:39

This Psalm gives the order of a worship service of the temple and these are all clergy performing. In Israel, only Levites attended to the temple. The instrument players also played when the sacrifice was slain, portraying the zeal with which they would kill their Messiah. No other time during a solemn assembly were instruments played.

The singers went before, the players on instruments [followed] after; among [them were] the damsels playing with timbrels. Ps. 68:25

and this relates to Mary how???? NO correlation.