Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[lionroar0]

and this is what you believe that protestants do?

what a wonderful example of marginalization!

Like I have stated in a previous post. The belive that Mary was not ever-virgin is the product of seculariam and humanism. Not early christianity nor the reformers.

Peace

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Originally Posted by lionroar0


I don't think so.

It shows just how much some protestants have deviated from orthodox christianity and accepted, a secular humanist view.

Which during the enlightment attacked christianity as whole regardless of church affiliation and put forth that all that we need is ourselves and science. In other words God is replaced by the individual and what the individual belives and science only looks at the natural world for answers not the supernatural(God.)

Peace

Excuse you! How dare you call Protestants Secular Humanists. Now that's just plain rude. I could call you and your kind Idol Worshipers if I wanted to get into a name calling fest.

This is the view that is being spoused as I explained in my previous post.

The view that Mary is not Ever-Virgin came from the age of enlightement not from the reformers themselves.

The age of enlightement was when secularism adn humanist took hold.

That is the view that you are espousing.

Just thought I let you know where the belive that Mary was not ever-virgin came from.

Peace

No. The reason we believe this is that the "ever virgin" crap in not backed up in Scripture. You have no proof of that teaching. That teaching is just reaching, ha.

 

[lionroar0]

That is the way of the Atheists. I imagine if more of them would have examined the Scriptures more thouroughly, they would not now be ex-Christians and anti-religion of any kind.

Faith in God is the element that they are missing. They put all of their faith in themselves and science.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Faith in God is the element that they are missing. They put all of their faith in themselves and science.

Peace

So does that necessarily make them "Evil Lawbreakers"?

Acts 17:11 and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all readiness of mind, every day examining the Writings whether those things were so;

A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.

 

[lionroar0]

No. The reason we believe this is that the "ever virgin" crap in not backed up in Scripture. You have no proof of that teaching. That teaching is just reaching, ha.

Your post drips double standards and irony. You ask for explicit evidence for Scriptural support of our belive that MAry is Ever-Virgin. When there is no explicit support for the trinity or the hypostatic union but yet these are belived by all christians.

Let us know when you start holding yourself to the same standard that you hold others.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

So does that necessarily make them "Evil Lawbreakers"?

No I don't think it makes them evil. I have met some pretty stand up atheist.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No I don't think it makes them evil. I have met some pretty stand up atheist.

Peace

Yes, I know quite a few of them myself.
I debate a lot of them on the GA board but never "condescendingly".

 

[FrauleinElsa]

Your post drips double standards and irony. You ask for explicit evidence for Scriptural support of our belive that MAry is Ever-Virgin. When there is no explicit support for the trinity or the hypostatic union but yet these are belived by all christians.

Let us know when you start holding yourself to the same standard that you hold others.

Peace

Wow! I do, thank you very much! I use my Bible as proof and unlike the "ever virgin theory" where there is no proof in scripture of it being real, there is extensive proof throughout scripture of the existence of...let's say the Trinity for example. Listen, just because you guys believe this stuff does not make it real, or true or that we Prostestants are going to believe it. Point out to me in scripture where Mary remained a virgin and maybe I'll consider it. Also, why is it so important that she was a virgin? I've asked that question repeatedly and no one has yet to answer it. It implies to me that the C.C. regards sex between married people as dirty and immoral. Hmmm...no wonder Rose Kennedy thought sex was only for procreation. You can slander me, laugh in my face, call me whatever you want. It'll roll right off. I am no theologian but I do know what the truth is. Thank you very much.

 

[lionroar0]

Excuse you! How dare you call Protestants Secular Humanists. Now that's just plain rude. I could call you and your kind Idol Worshipers if I wanted to get into a name calling fest.

I did not call protestants secular humanist. What I stated was that the view that Mary is not ever-virgin came from the enlightenment period. A period when secularism and humanism was taking hold.

The early chrisitans did not belive that she was not ever-virgin. Neither did the reformers.

I merely showed where the view that Mary is not Ever-Virgin came from.

Peace

 

[FrauleinElsa]

. The early chrisitans did not belive that she was not ever-virgin. Neither did the reformers.

Oh yeah? Proove it.

 

[lionroar0]

Wow! I do, thank you very much! I use my Bible as proof and unlike the "ever virgin theory" where there is no proof in scripture of it being real, there is extensive proof throughout scripture of the existence of...let's say the Trinity for example. Listen, just because you guys believe this stuff does not make it real, or true or that we Prostestants are going to believe it. Point out to me in scripture where Mary remained a virgin and maybe I'll consider it.

Point to me where the Bible explicitly states that the Trinity is three seperate distinc persons but yet undived and of the same essence.

Point to me where the Bibvle explicitly states that Jesus is 100% human and %God.

I hope that you are aware that you are using the same line of reasoning that atheist use when asking for prove of God.

Also, why is it so important that she was a virgin? I've asked that question repeatedly and no one has yet to answer it.

Why is it important that a Christian belives that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God?

Why is it important for Christians to belive in the Trinity?

It implies to me that the C.C. regards sex between married people as dirty and immoral. Hmmm...no wonder Rose Kennedy thought sex was only for procreation. You can slander me, laugh in my face, call me whatever you want. It'll roll right off. I am no theologian but I do know what the truth is. Thank you very much.

One of the seven sacraments of the CC is the sacraments.

A marriage is a holy union between man and a woman in front of God. It is made Holy by God. Sex is the gift of procreation that is shared between two people when they love each other. It is the joining of two people to give birth to a child of God.

I have no idea why you think the CC views sex as dirty.

Mary stayinga virgin has nothing to do with sex being "dirty." It has to do with Mary having carried God with in Her body and making it Holy.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh yeah? Proove it.

Hi. There are plenty of stories and fables outside of the Bible and why I am rather "skeptical" of any stories and writings by those outside of the Bible. How about this one for instance

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm

Thus begins Holger Kersten's book "Jesus Lived in India". This German book is a thorough, methodical and authoritative examination of the evidence of Christ's life beyond the Middle East before the Crucifixion and in India and elsewhere after it.​

This article is a summary of Kersten's exhaustive research into Christ's travels after the Crucifixion, his arrival in India with the Mother Mary and finally his death and entombment in Kashmir. Kersten notes the many parallels of Christ's teachings with other religious and cultural traditions and suggests that at least some of these figures may have been one and the same personality. It is not possible, Kersten asserts, to disprove that Christ went to India. The current information documenting Christ's life is restricted to the gospels and the work of Church theologians. One can hardly trust these sources to be objective considering their obvious interest in maintaining the authority of their Church and its grip on the masses.​

 

[Uphill Battle]

Your post drips double standards and irony. You ask for explicit evidence for Scriptural support of our belive that MAry is Ever-Virgin. When there is no explicit support for the trinity or the hypostatic union but yet these are belived by all christians.

Let us know when you start holding yourself to the same standard that you hold others.

Peace

we ask for SOME evidence in the bible. not explicit.

There is ZERO evidence of PV in the bible.

 

[lionroar0]

Oh yeah? Proove it.

Didn't another poster already do that?


Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

I did not call protestants secular humanist. What I stated was that the view that Mary is not ever-virgin came from the enlightenment period. A period when secularism and humanism was taking hold.

The early chrisitans did not belive that she was not ever-virgin. Neither did the reformers.

I merely showed where the view that Mary is not Ever-Virgin came from.

Peace

perhaps there the refutation of PV came from. Actually sounds about right.

You fail to mention what the evidence points to when it comes to where the belief IN PV came from.

a 300 odd year game of telephone, basically. With each writer adding more to it.

I'm sure you've heard of the game before.

 

[lionroar0]

Originally Posted by Benedicta00
No... Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaeus... they all lived during the apostolic generation.

Veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52

"[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever."
Protoevangelium of John,6:2(A.D. 150),in ANF,VIII:362
"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him."
Justin Martyr,Dialogue with Trypho,100(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:249
"[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe."
Melito de Sardo,Easter Homily(c.A.D. 177),in PAT,I:244

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455

Here is the prove again.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

Here is the prove again.

Peace

hmmmm... do you see what is missing in this? ANY reference to EVER virginity.

 

[lionroar0]

perhaps there the refutation of PV came from. Actually sounds about right.

You fail to mention what the evidence points to when it comes to where the belief IN PV came from.

a 300 odd year game of telephone, basically. With each writer adding more to it.

I'm sure you've heard of the game before.

I know that you are only looking at writtings but from a Catholic point of View. There is Apostolic Tradition. I think that is worded as the Tradition of the Apostles by the EFC's( well at least their translations.)

Oral Tradition isn't a game of telephone it is actually very accuarate. Where as in the game of telephons one is actively trying to distort and add to the messege.

Oral Tradition is the preservation of the Christian faith.

Before Christians could be bapstised they were taught the chrisitan faith and certain prayers. Before they could be baptisee as christians they had to show a working knowledge of Christianity. All of this was done orally.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

hmmmm... do you see what is missing in this? ANY reference to EVER virginity.

And yet the Bible is missing the Trinity and the Hypostatic union.

DBL standard.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

And yet the Bible is missing the Trinity and the Hypostatic union.

DBL standard.

Peace

no, no double standard.

beside not addressing the real issue, the trinity is seen in the bible.

In every work quoted, Mary is shown as a virgin. Not EVER virgin.

With the exception of the "James" text, which is almost assuredly pseudopigraphical, none of these ECF's refer to Mary as PV.