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Is Mary a source of Holiness?

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FrauleinElsa

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Dr Scott Hahn says that the reason that the Bible on the surface do not mention her is because thoughout most of the writing of the Bible, she is still alive.

If the enemies so tortured and killed Jesus Christ, imagine what they would have down to His own mother? For this reason, according to Hahn, the Biblical writers kepts quiet about Mary, only writing about her importance cryptically, just in case the letters or gospel fell into into the hands of the enemies.

The only book of the Bible that was after Mary had died was the Revelation of John. In this book, John was more free than any other NT writer in writing the importance of Mary. There was no fear any more that the ememies would capture her and torture her. So John was free to describe Mary as being in heaven with crown of stars on herb head and the moon at her feet. John described Mary as the Queen of Heaven. :clap:

Mary is not mentioned in Revelation and all of the Queen of Heaven references are of Pagan orrigns.

Jereimiah 7:18
Jeremiah 44:18
Jeremiah 44:25

In Jeremiah people baked cakes, burned incense and poured out drink offerings to her. The Queen of Heaven was the Babylonian title for the goddess Ishtar. She was an important goddess in the Babylonian pantheon, whose worship practices involved lascivious practices. In the Bible it is said that in the last days such beliefs and this type of heresy such as this will be common. This discussion here is only a sign of the end of days that is upon us.
 
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FrauleinElsa

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Also, Mary simply isn't as important to the gospel story. Her only importance was in the Nativity, being the woman who gave birth to the Messiah. That is her only importance. The gospel writers knew this. They also understood what placing too much importance on her would do. Take focus away from the One who deserves all of our attention and worship.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Mary is not mentioned in Revelation and all of the Queen of Heaven references are of Pagan orrigns.

Jereimiah 7:18
Jeremiah 44:18
Jeremiah 44:25

In Jeremiah people baked cakes, burned incense and poured out drink offerings to her. The Queen of Heaven was the Babylonian title for the goddess Ishtar. She was an important goddess in the Babylonian pantheon, whose worship practices involved lascivious practices. In the Bible it is said that in the last days such beliefs and this type of heresy such as this will be common. This discussion here is only a sign of the end of days that is upon us.
Wow. Could that be the one the LORD mentioned in Malachi 2? :confused:

(NKJV) Malachi 2:11 Judah has dealt treacherously, And an abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem, For Judah has profaned The LORD's holy [institution] which He loves: He has married the daughter of a foreign god.
 
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Mary is not mentioned in Revelation and all of the Queen of Heaven references are of Pagan orrigns.

Jereimiah 7:18
Jeremiah 44:18
Jeremiah 44:25

In Jeremiah people baked cakes, burned incense and poured out drink offerings to her. The Queen of Heaven was the Babylonian title for the goddess Ishtar. She was an important goddess in the Babylonian pantheon, whose worship practices involved lascivious practices. In the Bible it is said that in the last days such beliefs and this type of heresy such as this will be common. This discussion here is only a sign of the end of days that is upon us.

That is just a matter of history of human worship. Israel worshiped other gods beside the One true God above all others. But that is not how the writers of the church wrote about Mary. Nor was anyone contemptuous toward Rome, at that time when the church began, because of heresies as they are today. Tho I doubt these same folks would like it if others attacked them in the same manner, with no understanding of what they believe or why.

I would suggest you study how Mary fits into the Christology of the Church. There are plenty of 1st century Christian writers, that wrote about Mary.:cool:
 
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Benedicta00

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there are very large differences between what is written here, and what we find in later works.
Bright got those off of SSPX or Trad sites who do think prots burn in hell... I don't know what else to tell any of you.

He sets up everything and takes it all out of context, provides nothing from actual Church teaching but only refernces extreme Marian devotional material in order to confuse you all.

He cites sources like SSPX sites in order that you will visit them and believe this is a site that the Church approves of, its not though.

The Church does not teach that those who are not devoted to Mary are in danger to lose their soul. These are the opinions of some popes and spiritual writers but the popes are not speaking in the capacity of pope, just as a ordinary spiritual writer.

I do also believe those who really disdain Mary are prolly on the wrong path thinking they are on the right one, but that's my opinion.

Like the pastors who said that God punished the Gulf Coast by sending them Katrina. it opinions, it's what they think, it's not doctrines.
 
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Knowledge3

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Also, Mary simply isn't as important to the gospel story. Her only importance was in the Nativity, being the woman who gave birth to the Messiah. That is her only importance. The gospel writers knew this. They also understood what placing too much importance on her would do. Take focus away from the One who deserves all of our attention and worship.

Did you know that atheists also employ the same tactic against Christian beliefs?

By your reference to other "gods", you are implementing the use of reason as your primary objective.

I disagree.
 
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FrauleinElsa

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That is just a matter of history of human worship. Israel worshiped other gods beside the One true God above all others. But that is not how the writers of the church wrote about Mary. Nor was anyone contemptuous toward Rome, at that time when the church began, because of heresies as they are today. Tho I doubt these same folks would like it if others attacked them in the same manner, with no understanding of what they believe or why.

I would suggest you study how Mary fits into the Christology of the Church. There are plenty of 1st century Christian writers, that wrote about Mary.:cool:

I don't need you or anyone else telling me I need to educate myself. I already am, thank you very much *snaps fingers in the air*.
 
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Also, Mary simply isn't as important to the gospel story. Her only importance was in the Nativity, being the woman who gave birth to the Messiah. That is her only importance. The gospel writers knew this. They also understood what placing too much importance on her would do. Take focus away from the One who deserves all of our attention and worship.

She is very important in Christology. For instance, without her, His humanity would be in question.
I do not see how a mere mortal human could take focus off of God.:confused:

But I do see, from OT examples, that the people of scripture are written of for a reason. Perhaps you could explore that reason.
 
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FrauleinElsa

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Did you know that atheists also employ the same tactic against Christian beliefs?

By your reference to other "gods", you are implementing the use of reason as your primary objective.

I disagree.

I stand by what I say and what I believe. No matter what. I don't care what you think. Or what you say about what I believe. It just rolls right off...

And for the official record here, I got my info straight out of my NIV Bible. So, if you have an issue with my words just remember that I didn't pen them.
 
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HisBelovedMelody

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I don't need you or anyone else telling me I need to educate myself. I already am, thank you very much *snaps fingers in the air*.
nice being insulted...while being asked NOT to insult others. People must think we are dumb and uneducated cause we don't automatically accept what they are saying. They speak for themselves maybe, but I have run into people that DO believe all the stuff people here try to down play. SO sad.
 
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Benedicta00

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You are the expert on the writers the CC has called "Early Church Fathers," not me, but I've never seen any snippet from anyone who lived during the time of the Apostles who said anything about Mary that Protestants wouldn't agree with.

Now, beginning around the mid Third Century, then I think there are some differnces. But, of course, none of those writters ever met an Apostle or Mary - or anyone who did. And of course, the dogmatization of some of these Marian views are amazingly late - Protestants are often shocked by how late.

But I'm not equating my lack of embrace of some Catholic Marian dogmas (I don't reject them either) with my devotion for Mary - which is squarely based on Scripture.



Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah
No... Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaeus... they all lived during the apostolic generation.

Veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52

"[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever."
Protoevangelium of John,6:2(A.D. 150),in ANF,VIII:362
"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him."
Justin Martyr,Dialogue with Trypho,100(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:249
"[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe."
Melito de Sardo,Easter Homily(c.A.D. 177),in PAT,I:244

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455
 
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Peaceful Dove

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The Catholic Church does not stand upon Scripture alone, as a sole rule of faith. So whether or not Scripture clearly states it is irrelevant to Catholic teachings.

PAX

This is where we run into problems. It is so very difficult for a non-Catholic Christian to understand that we do not stand on Scripture alone. If that was once completely understood, then many of these discussions would not be posted here.
 
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FrauleinElsa

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She is very important in Christology. For instance, without her, His humanity would be in question.
I do not see how a mere mortal human could take focus off of God.:confused:

But I do see, from OT examples, that the people of scripture are written of for a reason. Perhaps you could explore that reason.

No...thank you. I know all I need to know about Mary. She just simply is not that important. Not to me. She gave birth to Jesus, that's all I need to know. Thank you.
 
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FrauleinElsa

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nice being insulted...while being asked NOT to insult others. People must think we are dumb and uneducated cause we don't automatically accept what they are saying. They speak for themselves maybe, but I have run into people that DO believe all the stuff people here try to down play. SO sad.

Tell me about it. :sigh:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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In Jeremiah people baked cakes, burned incense and poured out drink offerings to her. The Queen of Heaven was the Babylonian title for the goddess Ishtar. She was an important goddess in the Babylonian pantheon, whose worship practices involved lascivious practices. In the Bible it is said that in the last days such beliefs and this type of heresy such as this will be common. This discussion here is only a sign of the end of days that is upon us.
Hi. No one responded to this post I made earlier. Is Ishtar the one representing this foreign god Judah "married"?

(NKJV) Malachi 2:11 Judah has dealt treacherously, And an abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem, For Judah has profaned The LORD's holy [institution] which He loves: He has married the daughter of a foreign god.

(NKJV) Jeremiah 13:18 Say to the king and to the queen mother, "Humble yourselves; Sit down, For your rule shall collapse, the crown of your glory."
 
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IamAdopted

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It all devotional material.

BrightCandle,

We do not teach any of this as a matter of dogma or even doctrine- comprehend? and I don't know what pope, if it's pious or JP2 they will be saints soon.
Who may I ask is bright Candle? I don't know of whom you speak..
 
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maybe some respect would be nice. as I said, just cause we don't automatically believe what you all say..doesn't mean we are 'uneducated'.

That can go both ways. I've yet to see a decent refutation of the Church's consistent teaching of Mary from the 1st century to date.
Show us how she is not part of Christology and we'll agree she is not that important as some believe.:cool:
 
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