Is Mary a source of Holiness?

[Benedicta00]

oh and y'all...

Please make a note of it- bright candle or IAA who ever he really is, is providing for you stuff off of the SSPX or Traditionalist web sites who are not in union with the Holy See and who do believe that all on Catholics are damned to hell, this of course is not the teaching of the Church which is why they are not in union.

So for those who are interested in honesty, please consider the source of all that he presents. It's biased and slanted.

He has presented very much out of context quotes made to look like they mean something the don't but every one is free to form their own opinions.

In the future I hope he will stop posting from sites that are not in union with the Church.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

It all devotional material.

Easy buffalo. You don't have to shout. I'd call that shouting. Take a chill pill, dude.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Some thoughts....



1. God's holy inerrant written Word tells us very little about Mary or from Mary.
Matthew 1:23/Isaiah 7:14
Mark 3:31-35; 6:1-6
Luke 1:27, 31-33, 39-55
Luke 2:1-24, 49
John 2:4
John 19:26-27
Acts 1:14
That's it. That's all.


2. Like all the saints, there is much that can be learned. Having actually human examples of piety can be both helpful and inspirational. Perhaps that's why Mother Theresa was so very, very pqwerful - among Catholics and Protestants alike, even among Christians and nonchristians.


3. I honor, revere and venerate Our Blessed Lady as the chief among all saints, not only because of her amazing faith (which would place here in a fairly exclusive group in and of itself) but because of her role in salvation history, as the Mother of God (which places her in a completely unique group of one).


4. Among Protestants, the "attention" given to Mary among some Catholics seems stunning and sometimes even troubling. I think most Catholics would admit that SOME do give her too much focus. But my experience is that as properly understood and as generally practiced, none of this detracts from Jesus but is simply a way in which Jesus is elevated. As one listens to the Rosary, for example, Our Lady is mentioned much - but the focus is square on Jesus.



My $0.005


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[Benedicta00]

God's holy inerrant written Word tells us very little about Mary or from Mary.

but the ECF tell us a lot, so...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Please make a note of it- bright candle or IAA who ever he really is, is providing for you stuff off of the SSPX or Traditionalist web sites who are not in union with the Holy See

The "Holy See":

[SIZE=+0](Young) John 17:11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to Me, that they may be one as We; [/SIZE]

 

[HisKid1973]

but the ECF tell us a lot, so...

Is it possible ECF's had mans idea's apart form the original apostles? Some of the ECF's are out there..If I had to chose between apostolic teaching and the ECF's, I would choose the original apostolic writings that made it into canon..

 

[Benedicta00]

Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaeus... they all lived during the apostolic generation, so hardly...

but somehow I think you you feel that you and your view of the bible know better than those who lived in the apostle's own time.

Veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52

"[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever."
Protoevangelium of John,6:2(A.D. 150),in ANF,VIII:362

"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him."
Justin Martyr,Dialogue with Trypho,100(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:249

"[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe."
Melito de Sardo,Easter Homily(c.A.D. 177),in PAT,I:244

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455

"Mary worship" as you ppl love to call it has been around since the very first generation of Christianity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaeus... they all lived during the apostolic generation, so hardly...

but somehow I think you you feel that you and your view of the bible know better than those who lived in the apostle's own time.


"Mary worship" as you ppl love to call it has been around since the very first generation of Christianity.

Please make a note of it- bright candle or IAA who ever he really is, is providing for you stuff off of the SSPX or Traditionalist web sites who are not in union with the Holy See

Hi. Did the ECF's look to the Pope as the Holy See back then?

(Young) John 17:11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to Me, that they may be one as We;

 

[Uphill Battle]

Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Irenaeus... they all lived during the apostolic generation, so hardly...

but somehow I think you you feel that you and your view of the bible know better than those who lived in the apostle's own time.


"Mary worship" as you ppl love to call it has been around since the very first generation of Christianity.

there are very large differences between what is written here, and what we find in later works.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

okay... so its like that. So much for trying to reason with people. Believe what you want about us.
I really don't care anymore.

all I did was ask you to read what I wrote. YOU assume alot in saying I said you worship Mary. That is NOT what I said. Please keep in context what I did say.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

but the ECF tell us a lot, so...

You are the expert on the writers the CC has called "Early Church Fathers," not me, but I've never seen any snippet from anyone who lived during the time of the Apostles who said anything about Mary that Protestants wouldn't agree with.

Now, beginning around the mid Third Century, then I think there are some differnces. But, of course, none of those writters ever met an Apostle or Mary - or anyone who did. And of course, the dogmatization of some of these Marian views are amazingly late - Protestants are often shocked by how late.

But I'm not equating my lack of embrace of some Catholic Marian dogmas (I don't reject them either) with my devotion for Mary - which is squarely based on Scripture.



Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah

 

[Myriah]

You are the expert on the writers the CC has called "Early Church Fathers," not me, but I've never seen any snippet from anyone who lived during the time of the Apostles who said anything about Mary that Protestants wouldn't agree with.

Now, beginning around the mid Third Century, then I think there are some differnces. But, of course, none of those writters ever met an Apostle or Mary - or anyone who did. And of course, the dogmatization of some of these Marian views are amazingly late - Protestants are often shocked by how late.

But I'm not equating my lack of embrace of some Catholic Marian dogmas (I don't reject them either) with my devotion for Mary - which is squarely based on Scripture.



Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah

Yes, very true. Other than sola scriptura Protestantism, the other main two are more related to Coptic at around the 3rd Century, as well as incorporating their early pagan god and goddess (eternal virgin ideologies) into Christianity.

 

[Iollain]

there are very large differences between what is written here, and what we find in later works.

Yes there sure is.

 

[Iollain]

You are the expert on the writers the CC has called "Early Church Fathers," not me, but I've never seen any snippet from anyone who lived during the time of the Apostles who said anything about Mary that Protestants wouldn't agree with.

Now, beginning around the mid Third Century, then I think there are some differnces. But, of course, none of those writters ever met an Apostle or Mary - or anyone who did. And of course, the dogmatization of some of these Marian views are amazingly late - Protestants are often shocked by how late.

But I'm not equating my lack of embrace of some Catholic Marian dogmas (I don't reject them either) with my devotion for Mary - which is squarely based on Scripture.



Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah

Josiah what do you mean, your devotion to Mary?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Did Jesus come to us through Mary's body, yes or no?

Yes, but this has to do with what???....what is your point? Still doesn't make her our source.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Yes, but only to be born. Birth has nothig to do with what is being discussed. Let's get real here. You want us to say that no one comes to faith in Jesus except through His mother, that salvation first comes from her. And as Prostestants we just aren't going to say that because

a) that theology is found no where in the Bible and
b) that's not what we believe to be true.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[PaulAckermann]

In my opinion no. And I'll explain. It's because that's not what I was taught, it's not how I view the Scriptures, and it's just not what I believe. I think there is a reason why Mary isn't mentioned very much in the Bible. I think it's so we don't place an un-healthy emphasis on her. Which in my opinion some have. I'm not pointing fingers or anything, but it's just what I feel.

Dr Scott Hahn says that the reason that the Bible on the surface do not mention her is because thoughout most of the writing of the Bible, she is still alive.

If the enemies so tortured and killed Jesus Christ, imagine what they would have down to His own mother? For this reason, according to Hahn, the Biblical writers kepts quiet about Mary, only writing about her importance cryptically, just in case the letters or gospel fell into into the hands of the enemies.

The only book of the Bible that was after Mary had died was the Revelation of John. In this book, John was more free than any other NT writer in writing the importance of Mary. There was no fear any more that the ememies would capture her and torture her. So John was free to describe Mary as being in heaven with crown of stars on herb head and the moon at her feet. John described Mary as the Queen of Heaven.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

I disagree with Revelation and it being descriptive of Mary. this is FUTURE stuff..'stuff to come' as John said. SO what does that have to do with Mary?? Sorry, I don't see the correlation.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Josiah what do you mean, your devotion to Mary?

Good question, and I TOTALLY affirm it when people ASK what another means when they aren't sure...


I consider Mary to be a GREAT model or example for us, and in THAT sense consider her to be a Saint - in fact, I would place her among the chief of such. I also highly regard her in so far as her role in salvation history, since she is the mother of Jesus - who is the God/man (thus Mary is the Mother of God) and also our Savior and Lord. She has an altogether unique role there.


Now, to those pesky WORDS....
It's amazing to me how much of our troubles in these interdenominational conversations is simply a matter of words....


Devotion = To focus on, to regard highly.
Adoration = To regard with admiration.
Revere = To respect, to honor, to hold in esteem.
Venerate = To admire with deference
Worship = To admire, revere, respect, to regard as worthy of praise or honor.

In those senses, all those things apply to my relationship to Mary. I do NOT regard her as divine (no denomination does). I do NOT regard her as sinless. But I do regard her as blessed.


My years as a guest in the Catholic Church moved and blessed me in many ways (indeed, my entrance into Lutheranism was in large part via Catholicism). ONE of those ways was an introduction to Mary - and a deep appreciation for that. She does provide a perspective on all this that touched and moved this teenage guy, and deeped and deepens my faith in Christ. That should NOT be taken to mean that I embrace the various Catholic Marian dogmas (I generally don't - although I don't accept them, either). It should also not be taken to mean that I regard Mary as equal to Christ or the Trinity - that would be dishonoring her profoundly (and no Christian known to me would disagree). But I do feel a devotion to her as a GREAT model of faith and for her role in my salvation and in the life of the Savior who is my everything.


I realize I'm a difficult guy to pigeon hole, LOL. I'm SOLIDLY conservative/traditional Reformation Protestant - embracing (rather passionately) Sola Gratia, Solus Christus, Sola Fide, Soli Deo Gloria, as well as the epistemological tool of Sola Scriptura. I'm landing squarely in conservative/traditional Lutheranism (and with a huge respect for the Reformed movement, too). But, I'm about as far away from being "anti-catholic" as a 'Protestant' can be. I consider myself a part of the 2000 year heritage and tradition of Christianity - and that largely via Catholicism (big C), as Lutheranism is. Luther started nothing new but called himself "Catholic" all his life (and was buried with his Rosary). While I disagree with a handful of dogmas insisted upon by the Catholic denomination and don't agree with (but don't disagree with) a few more, I am of that tradition - it is my roots, my home. I consider the CC to be a valid denomination, I consider her clergy and minsitry as valid, I consider her members to be my FULL, UNseparated brothers and sisters. It's just not mutual. My disagreements are theological - a matter of doctrine, not spiritual - a matter of the heart. It makes me neither anti-catholic or anti-protestant, and thus not very popular in either 'camp,' LOL. It's okay. I guess it depends what matters - my theology (solidly Protestant) or my heart (solidly ecumenical). Keep reading my posts, you're confusion will grow, LOL!



Pax!


- Josiah

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The only book of the Bible that was after Mary had died was the Revelation of John. In this book, John was more free than any other NT writer in writing the importance of Mary. There was no fear any more that the ememies would capture her and torture her. So John was free to describe Mary as being in heaven with crown of stars on herb head and the moon at her feet. John described Mary as the Queen of Heaven.

Hi. There actually were 2 types of "Queens".

(NKJV) Jeremiah 13:18 Say to the king and to the queen mother, "Humble yourselves; Sit down, For your rule shall collapse, the crown of your glory."

This doesn't appear to show "Mary" rising up in the "judgement":

Matthew 12:42 `A queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and lo, a greater than Solomon here!

Revelation 18:7 "In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, 'I sit [as] queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'