Is it wrong to leave sheep in pits on the Sabbath?

[ralliann]

So is it your argument that David and the high priest sinned?

It is my argument that they defiled the Sabbath without guiltiness, is scriptural teaching.

 

[DamianWarS]

So is it your argument that David and the high priest sinned?

The OT account shows the process that the priest undertook to ensure some level of cleanliness from David's side which we may argue as lawful. But Christ doesn't feel this information important to address and he states: "Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests." According to Christ "[it] was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests".

The point Christ is showing is that the act was unlawful yet David and his men were innocent of wrongdoing. So they both broke the law and were innocent of it. This is the same case with priests who "discrete the Sabbath" or pulling a sheep out of a pit. All unlawful acts by definition of the law yet they are innocent and this is Christ's point. It doesn't matter that these things were widely accepted without thought, that's the point, Jesus is showing the hypocrisy of makings exceptions not to dismiss the exceptions but to show a new way of looking at keeping the law.

he uses this all as a segue first to heal the man but then to declare that is it lawful to do good. In the explicit text "doing good" is inclusive of David and his men eating consecrated bread, the priests and their duties on the Sabbath, pulling sheep out of pits, and healing withered hands. This is not a list of exceptions that Jesus is making, which would be contrary to his point, instead, he is building the heuristic that "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" so we don't need the list of exceptions any more and can just do good.

 

[Studyman]

You seem determined to point out how wrong I am and how anti-God I am being

In the end Christ tells us it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and I didn't make that up. No one is engaging this point. at best you can fire off all this scripture about what the Sabbath is or isn't but none of it addresses putting limits on goodness.

To build his point Christ says "haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?" We can get into a lengthy discussion about the role of the priests and unpack why they are innocent of any wrongdoing according to the law yet Christ still chooses to say they desecrate the Sabbath to build his point which is aggressive language. You are accusing me of the same, that I'm desecrating the Sabbath yet ironically it's the same point Christ makes yet he declares goodness is lawful.

Rather than define the Sabbath for me why not define goodness for me so I may understand how you judge what is good and what is not? Are you suggesting there is a different goodness for the Sabbath than the other days? Does that not just avoid Christ's point?

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath so I promote goodness and all you can accuse me of is sin. And I'm the one rejecting God's truths?

This reply is a perfect representation of why I disagree with your religious views towards God's Holy Sabbath, and how you come to those views. I posted a fairly long post, asking you questions, posting Scriptures and making points for your consideration. But you ignored almost all of them, choosing instead to selectively pick small parts of my post that you can use to deflect from my relevant questions, while refusing to engage or even acknowledge even one scripture I posted.

In my view, according to my experience with this kind of preaching, you do the exact same thing to the Christ of the Bible regarding His Words. He speaks many Words regarding His Laws and their purpose, including HIS Sabbath and I posted just a few from "where He was before", as the Rock of Israel, but you ignored all of them, choosing instead to selectively pick parts of one or two sentences, separate them from the rest of the entire Bible and then create your own doctrine based on your personal definition of "Good". Which from your own words is defined as "Anything that is "Good" to do on Tuesday, is also "Good" to do on any of God's Holy Sabbaths. Which directly Contradicts the Words of God in the very commandment.

Jesus never promoted such a philosophy. At least, not the Jesus of the Bible in my view. It was always Lawful to do "Good" on God's Holy Sabbaths. Treating His Sabbath the same as all other days, was never "Good" in the examples HE had written for our admonition. I think it's a mistake to ignore these lessons God gave us. Jesus didn't.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[HIM]

The Hebrew word used in regard to the works that is prohibited on the Sabbath specifically refers to creative work, which in accordance with God resting from His creative work on the 7th day, so it is not referring to actions done to make a profit. The creation of the tabernacle also parallels the creation account in Genesis, so the work prohibited on the Sabbath has been traditionally interpreted as prohibiting to the 39 forms of work that went into creation the tabernacle. If Jesus had wanted, he could have easily quoted Rabbi Yehuda as saying that we are permitted to crush grains of wheat on the Sabbath as long as we don't use a tool. Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent of breaking the Sabbath because it was not intended to be understood as causing people to go hungry, just as in Exodus 23:11, where people were permitted to eat from the land for their own consumption during the 7th year while the land was being given a rest.

The word work in the Hebrew used in the giving of the commandment infers a message through action, our walk.

 

[HIM]

The OT account shows the process that the priest undertook to ensure some level of cleanliness from David's side which we may argue as lawful. But Christ doesn't feel this information important to address and he states: "Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests." According to Christ "[it] was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests".

The point Christ is showing is that the act was unlawful yet David and his men were innocent of wrongdoing. So they both broke the law and were innocent of it. This is the same case with priests who "discrete the Sabbath" or pulling a sheep out of a pit. All unlawful acts by definition of the law yet they are innocent and this is Christ's point. It doesn't matter that these things were widely accepted without thought, that's the point, Jesus is showing the hypocrisy of makings exceptions not to dismiss the exceptions but to show a new way of looking at keeping the law.

he uses this all as a segue first to heal the man but then to declare that is it lawful to do good. In the explicit text "doing good" is inclusive of David and his men eating consecrated bread, the priests and their duties on the Sabbath, pulling sheep out of pits, and healing withered hands. This is not a list of exceptions that Jesus is making, which would be contrary to his point, instead, he is building the heuristic that "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" so we don't need the list of exceptions any more and can just do good.

Grass cutting is neither needful nor emergency. We cut our grass due to vanity. By showing the widow that it is okay to cut grass on the Sabbath due to our feelings of whether it can be cut we subject them to our feelings and not to the Word of God which states we our to rest and worship.

All you are doing here is stating your feelings. The word of God is clear. Emergencies and ministerial work in regards to worship. Nothing else is even implied. Don't add what is not because you feel it is okay.

 

[HIM]

The Hebrew word used in regard to the works that is prohibited on the Sabbath specifically refers to creative work, which in accordance with God resting from His creative work on the 7th day, so it is not referring to actions done to make a profit. The creation of the tabernacle also parallels the creation account in Genesis, so the work prohibited on the Sabbath has been traditionally interpreted as prohibiting to the 39 forms of work that went into creation the tabernacle. If Jesus had wanted, he could have easily quoted Rabbi Yehuda as saying that we are permitted to crush grains of wheat on the Sabbath as long as we don't use a tool. Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent of breaking the Sabbath because it was not intended to be understood as causing people to go hungry, just as in Exodus 23:11, where people were permitted to eat from the land for their own consumption during the 7th year while the land was being given a rest.

The word rest paints an even cooler picture.

 

[DamianWarS]

This reply is a perfect representation of why I disagree with your religious views towards God's Holy Sabbath, and how you come to those views. I posted a fairly long post, asking you questions, posting Scriptures and making points for your consideration. But you ignored almost all of them, choosing instead to selectively pick small parts of my post that you can use to deflect from my relevant questions, while refusing to engage or even acknowledge even one scripture I posted.

In my view, according to my experience with this kind of preaching, you do the exact same thing to the Christ of the Bible regarding His Words. He speaks many Words regarding His Laws and their purpose, including HIS Sabbath and I posted just a few from "where He was before", as the Rock of Israel, but you ignored all of them, choosing instead to selectively pick parts of one or two sentences, separate them from the rest of the entire Bible and then create your own doctrine based on your personal definition of "Good". Which from your own words is defined as "Anything that is "Good" to do on Tuesday, is also "Good" to do on any of God's Holy Sabbaths. Which directly Contradicts the Words of God in the very commandment.

Jesus never promoted such a philosophy. At least, not the Jesus of the Bible in my view. It was always Lawful to do "Good" on God's Holy Sabbaths. Treating His Sabbath the same as all other days, was never "Good" in the examples HE had written for our admonition. I think it's a mistake to ignore these lessons God gave us. Jesus didn't.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Your post accuses me of anti sabbath sentiments. If Christ says it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath then by doing good on the Sabbath no law or commandment is broken and the day is still kept holy, it is still pro sabbath. So i a presenting a pro sabbath view, telling me it's the opposite doesn't actually engage the point it just tries to ignore it.

I'm not trying to void the Sabbath which seems to be what your responding to. I'm looking at Christ's words saying it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. You seem focused on defining the Sabbath I'm focused on defining "goodness" in terms of lawful actions on the Sabbath.

Feel free to start the conversion on the limits of goodness on the Sabbath

 

[DamianWarS]

Grass cutting is neither needful nor emergency. We cut our grass due to vanity. By showing the widow that it is okay to cut grass on the Sabbath due to our feelings of whether it can be cut we subject them to our feelings and not to the Word of God which states we our to rest and worship.

All you are doing here is stating your feelings. The word of God is clear. Emergencies and ministerial work in regards to worship. Nothing else is even implied. Don't add what is not because you feel it is okay.

Goodness is not implied it is explict. Descecrating the Sabbath is not implied it is explict. Unlawful actions are not implied they are explicit.

The goal is not cutting grass the goal is sharing the gospel and this is what makes it good. Jumping into pits and lifting things out is needless work, but if the thing you're lifting out is a sheep in distress it is redeemed and is good. So it is not the physical movement of labour I'm addressing since you seem so focused on this part, but rather the goal of the labour that makes it good.

So your argument of emergency or need should be addressed on if sharing the gospel is of need or emergency. Try and at least show you understand this.

 

[Studyman]

It is my argument that they defiled the Sabbath without guiltiness, is scriptural teaching.

You are still missing the point. The Priests burned the fat of the sacrifices and other "works of the Law" on the Sabbath Days by commandment of God. No other person was allowed to defile the sabbath in this manner, even being stoned for gathering sticks to build a fire on the sabbath day.

If a Priest can burn fat on the sabbath Days and give the showbread to God's anointed and be guiltless, shall the Son of God, The Holy One of Israel not be allowed to fellowship with His disciples and eat a raspberry along the way?

Jesus didn't have this written to justify "defiling" God's commandments. He was exposing the hypocrisy of the mainstream preachers of His Time. "But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple."

 

[HIM]

Goodness is not implied it is explict. Descecrating the Sabbath is not implied it is explict. Unlawful actions are not implied they are explicit.

The goal is not cutting grass the goal is sharing the gospel and this is what makes it good. Jumping into pits and lifting things out is needless work, but if the thing you're lifting out is a sheep in distress it is redeemed and is good. So it is not the physical movement of labour I'm addressing since you seem so focused on this part, but rather the goal of the labour that makes it good.

So your argument of emergency or need should be addressed on if sharing the gospel is of need or emergency. Try and at least show you understand this.

Can’t share the salvation of the life through God by sharing a life that isn’t through Him. You are not sharing Christ by living outside of Christ.All you are doing is showing them your life and thoughts. Cutting grass is not an emergency. Any day will do for that. The Sabbath is a day of rest and worship. That is what we are shown, so that is what we show through Christ.

 

[HIM]

Goodness is not implied it is explict. Descecrating the Sabbath is not implied it is explict. Unlawful actions are not implied they are explicit.

The goal is not cutting grass the goal is sharing the gospel and this is what makes it good. Jumping into pits and lifting things out is needless work, but if the thing you're lifting out is a sheep in distress it is redeemed and is good. So it is not the physical movement of labour I'm addressing since you seem so focused on this part, but rather the goal of the labour that makes it good.

So your argument of emergency or need should be addressed on if sharing the gospel is of need or emergency. Try and at least show you understand this.

God through Christ laid out the criteria. Healing, ministerial work and emergencies. Grass cutting isn’t any of those. It can be done any day. The Sabbath is a day of rest and worship. That is what we are shown so that is what is seen by those whom are His.

 

[trophy33]

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2Cor 3:17

 

[DamianWarS]

Cutting grass is not an emergency

You seem to fail to grasp this point. It's not about cutting grass it's about reaching someone for Christ. The former is nothing, the later is the emergency of life.

 

[DamianWarS]

cutting isn’t any of those

The emergency is the salvation of the individual you're helping which also fits your other criteria of healing and ministerial work. Cutting grass is just a method to reach that person, it's actually not about cutting grass at all which seems to be a point that evades you. Pulling sheep out of pits can be strenuous labour especially when sheep don't cooperate (and they often don't). But it's not the physical movements of pushing, pulling, lifting, climbing etc... that is the focus, its the needs of the sheep that's the focus and this redeems the work. In the same way it's not the movements of pusing a lawn mower back and forth that's the focus, it's getting access to someone so that you may share Christ. This would be applauded any other day of the week for the goal and purpose of sharing the gospel so why is that focus any different on the Sabbath?

 

[AbbaLove]

Is it wrong to leave sheep in pits on the Sabbath?​

This is as much or more a spiritual question as it is physical. The sheep refers to the "lost sheep of Israel".

Hebrews 11:40
God providing a better thing for us, so that they would not be made perfect apart from us.​

Read entire chapter to understand that gentile sheep would still be in the pits without Calvary and the role of the gentile sheep in God's divine work to bring in His lost sheep.

Yes a wonderful work every day of the week including the Sabbath.

 

[ralliann]

Is it wrong to leave sheep in pits on the Sabbath?​

This is as much or more a spiritual question as it is physical. The sheep refers to the "lost sheep of Israel".

Hebrews 11:40
God providing a better thing for us, so that they would not be made perfect apart from us.​

Read entire chapter to understand that gentile sheep would still be in the pits without Calvary and the role of the gentile sheep in God's divine work to bring in His lost sheep.

Yes a wonderful work every day of the week including the Sabbath.

Keep in mind, those which Hebrews is speaking of goes back before Abraham. A steady record of those that walked by faith. The just live by faith.

 

[DamianWarS]

This is as much or more a spiritual question as it is physical. The sheep refers to the "lost sheep of Israel".

Finally someone who gets it. This of course begs the question did Jesus intend the spiritual meaning as well?

 

[Doran]

Indeed, it has always been lawful to get a sheep out of a pit on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:11), just as it has always been lawful for someone to untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it (Luke 13:15) or to pull an ox or a son out of a well (Luke 14:5). In Exodus 20:8-11, God commanded to have our livestock rest on the, so God clearly cares for animals, and this is in accordance with obeying His command to keep the Sabbath holy. The Sabbath was never intended to be uses as an excuse to prevent us from doing good, through neither is doing good intended to be used as an excuse to prevent us from keeping the Sabbath holy. In Mark 7:9-13, while they were doing good by offering something to God, they were using doing good as an excuse to avoid honoring their parents, so they were acting as hypocrites who were making void the word of God.

So, tell me: Is a physician at a hospital who makes his living at that practice doing good or evil on all the sabbaths that he's either scheduled to work or called in to work?

 

[Doran]

Finally someone who gets it. This of course begs the question did Jesus intend the spiritual meaning as well?

YES! AbbaLove gets it! Was not Paul completely zealous for the souls of the LOST SHEEP of his own people according to the flesh when on every sabbath on his missionary journeys he would work hard evangelizing them, and any Gentile proselytes in their midst, as well? Yet, sabbatarians mistakenly believe that Paul visited those synagogues to merely keep sabbath -- in spite of what he wrote in Romans 14, Colossians 2 and Galatians 4 about the "keeping of days", etc.

 

[DamianWarS]

YES! AbbaLove gets it! Was not Paul completely zealous for the souls of the LOST SHEEP of his own people according to the flesh when on every sabbath on his missionary journeys he would work hard evangelizing them, and any Gentile proselytes in their midst, as well? Yet, sabbatarians mistakenly believe that Paul visited those synagogues to merely keep sabbath -- in spite of what he wrote in Romans 14, Colossians 2 and Galatians 4 about the "keeping of days", etc.

Paul also admits to this missiology strategy in 1 Cor 9

v19-20 "Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law." Paul's goal is not to become one under the law, or simply to belong or be bound by a system. his goal is to "win as many as possible"