Is it wrong to leave sheep in pits on the Sabbath?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Agreed. But is avoiding good wrong? Luke 10:25-37 tells us passing by is not loving your neighbour which should implicitly be the same on the Sabbath. This parable highlights the 2 greatest commandments as its motivation with an explict focus on how we treat others.

Indeed viewing these passages together still points to these 2 greatest commandments but again Christ' focus is about how we treat others which can be inferred by how he calls people more valuable than sheep and through his act of healing.

So what's the heuristic here because everyone seems to scared to call it out? At the very least doing good is more noble than rest. So is this our duty? Or can it wait until the Sabbath is over?

Of course, we all should be like the Samaritan in the parable...Yeshua said "Go and do likewise" in Luke 10:25-37

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Notice that the issue came up again when Jesus' disciples "harvested" a bit of grain from the fields to eat on the Sabbath, which was not done when the Israelites were supplied with manna in the wilderness.

The law was not about sheep. It was not about wheat. It was not about manna.

The law was about work on the Sabbath.

It was about Manna though because Christ is our Manna just as He is Lord of the Sabbath. Taking it to the spiritual aspect is the goal of the thread it would seem. And there is no further aspect than that of the Lord our Great Shepherd and His sheep.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Jesus's focus was on what is beyond the law. What is beyond the law is the fruit of the Spirit, kindness, gentleness, etc. Those are spiritually beyond the law.

 

[RDKirk]

It was about Manna though because Christ is our Manna just as He is Lord of the Sabbath. Taking it to the spiritual aspect is the goal of the thread it would seem. And there is no further aspect than that of the Lord our Great Shepherd and His sheep.

Or making up a spiritual aspect...before fully comprehending the material aspect.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Or making up a spiritual aspect...before fully comprehending the material aspect.

That's what the Pharisee and the scribes would take to lengths that never reached the spiritual and never moved out of the literal either. No offense. I would just be glad to hear the spiritual discussions.

 

[RDKirk]

That's what the Pharisee and the scribes would take to lengths that never reached the spiritual and never moved out of the literal either. No offense. I would just be glad to hear the spiritual discussions.

It's possible to be mired in the material and never reach for the spiritual, but if the material is never understood, one may be reaching for the spiritual from the wrong foundation, and thus reaching in the wrong direction.

 

[Studyman]

Indeed Luke 10:25-37 also confirms passing by is not loving our neighbour and this should be no different on the Sabbath.

if we can agree leaving people (or sheep) in physical distress when we can help is wrong (on or off the sabbath) then can this extend to the spiritual? For those in spiritual pits they themselves are unable to get out ofohow do we pull them out?

This points to loving your neighbour and showing them Christ but the act of doing this is quite fluid and may look like a lot of things that would otherwise be restricted on the Sabbath like mowing someone's yard. Mowing someone yard does not help someone in physical distress but it may help them in spiritual distress. Is spiritual distress a worthy enough cause and is the work involved to pull them out lawful?

Well I never saw a lawn that suddenly needed to be mowed for the spiritual well being of someone. I can't see where this remotely resembles a man who has a living Sheep, that falls into a Pit on Saturday. Or the Spiritual crises which would need me to repair a hole in their roof that has leaked for weeks, on God's Holy Sabbath. It seems a better witness for God, to share with him the Holy Scriptures and fellowship with him, and then "work" for him on his lawn or roof, on the six days of the week God gave us all to do these kinds of things. Surely the lawn won't suffer, and the hole can exist one more day. But perhaps the fellowship is what is really needed, and there isn't a Law against that. It seems this would be a more Godly way to "Help". It Glorifies God with honor and respect, it is helping those in need, putting God before insignificant earthy things like laws and roofs, while putting the welfare of people where it belongs, as it is written, "how much better is a person than a lawn", (or something like that)

 

[DamianWarS]

Well I never saw a lawn that suddenly needed to be mowed for the spiritual well being of someone. I can't see where this remotely resembles a man who has a living Sheep, that falls into a Pit on Saturday. Or the Spiritual crises which would need me to repair a hole in their roof that has leaked for weeks, on God's Holy Sabbath. It seems a better witness for God, to share with him the Holy Scriptures and fellowship with him, and then "work" for him on his lawn or roof, on the six days of the week God gave us all to do these kinds of things. Surely the lawn won't suffer, and the hole can exist one more day. But perhaps the fellowship is what is really needed, and there isn't a Law against that. It seems this would be a more Godly way to "Help". It Glorifies God with honor and respect, it is helping those in need, putting God before insignificant earthy things like laws and roofs, while putting the welfare of people where it belongs, as it is written, "how much better is a person than a lawn", (or something like that)

The spiritual lost are stuck in spiritual pits they themselves cannot get out of. They need Christ and we may show them Christ through many acts of kindness and love in Christ which may include mowing someones yard or baking someone cookies. The work is building Christ's kingdom the mowing and baking are mechanisms to acconplished that goal.

 

[Studyman]

The spiritual lost are stuck in spiritual pits they themselves cannot get out of. They need Christ and we may show them Christ through many acts of kindness and love in Christ which may include mowing someones yard or baking someone cookies. The work is building Christ's kingdom the mowing and baking are mechanisms to acconplished that goal.

It seems you have your mind made up. But I disagree with your reasoning. If a person is Spiritually lost and clothes are worn out, should I then steal clothes and give them to him? And if not, then why not? Does "mans" interpretation of "Kindness" make God's Laws void?

If a woman was spiritually lost and believed she was in need of intimacy, shall I lay with her to comfort her needs? Both of these things could certainly be considered kindness in the minds of men.

There were lots of sick and spiritually lost people in Jesus Time. Did HE roam the streets of Jerusalem looking for them on God's Holy Sabbaths?

I think you are forgetting what was going on in the story you are using. I'm not making any judgments here, just sharing a perspective as someone who believes God created His Commandments for a purpose.

Matt. 12: 1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

I might note that the man with the withered hand existed at this time and surely Jesus knew of him. And Jesus was walking in fellowship with His Disciples through fields of corn. So then, under the same reasoning of your OP, was Jesus letting this man stay in the Pit until after HE and His Disciples were finished in their fellowship? Does God's Holy Sabbath commandment restrict me from going on walks in fellowship with Him, on His Sabbaths? And is it unlawful for me to pick a raspberry to eat along the walk? And yet, the mainstream preachers of that time taught that it was. I can find no such Law against HIS or His Disciples behavior in the Oracles of God. It seems Jesus was exposing the Preachers of His Time in this story and the "Commandments of man" they taught for doctrines.

9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

There is no indication that this man was lost, only that he had a withered hand. And there is no indication that this man was even saved, only that the Pharisees had used him as a prop to deceive Jesus. There was no Spiritual instruction from Jesus to this man to "Go and Sin no more". There was no accusation regarding this man for Jesus to Judge.

And Jesus said to the Mainstream Preachers of that time who were trying to deceive Him, "What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

There is a purpose for God's Sabbaths spelled out in the Law and Prophets. The Pharisees had polluted it. I don't believe if this man with the withered hand had asked Jesus to mow his lawn for him that day, or bake a cake for him that day, that Jesus would have consented. I think HE would have told the man what HE Told them in the beginning,

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

It seems there is a story that addresses this issue that you bring up.

Luke 10: 39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.

40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Mowing lawns, baking cakes are all good and fine, but God's Instruction is the cure for those who are spiritually lost, in my view.

 

[DamianWarS]

It seems you have your mind made up. But I disagree with your reasoning. If a person is Spiritually lost and clothes are worn out, should I then steal clothes and give them to him? And if not, then why not? Does "mans" interpretation of "Kindness" make God's Laws void?

If a woman was spiritually lost and believed she was in need of intimacy, shall I lay with her to comfort her needs? Both of these things could certainly be considered kindness in the minds of men.

There were lots of sick and spiritually lost people in Jesus Time. Did HE roam the streets of Jerusalem looking for them on God's Holy Sabbaths?

Stealing and sexual immortality are not examples of loving your neighbour. I didn't think we were challenging thoses things. We cannot violate loving your neighbour to love your neighbour, that is not how it works and this shouldn't have to be explained. Is there something about this that is confusing?

Christ says in Mathew 12 "priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath" Christ uses a very strong word to communicate that priests by definition do not keep the Sabbath "yet are innocent". We also know of saving sheep out of pits or oxen out of dirches and we also know people are far more value than sheep. Although useful for the physical this has power spiritual implications.

There is a heuristic here of how to not just keep the Sabbath but something that is above the Sabbath that allows these cases to violate the Sabbath yet be innocent and the heuristic seems to be driven by serving people over rules. The needs are still under Christ so let's not jump to immoral strawmen and the greatest need is being spiritual lost.

As we drive to church on Sabbath (whatever day you call that) how many spiritual lost are there stuck in pits that we drive by? Many of those people don't response to traditional evangelism and they need to be shown Christ through love in order to see Christ. Showing love, is serving them as they are our mission and we are their priest, serving them is work and this work is good and lawful. The goal is not be busy or find loop holes, or forsaking the fellowship of believers, the goal is to pull sheep out of pits, how can that be called wrong?

 

[Studyman]

Stealing and sexual immortality are not examples of loving your neighbour. I didn't think we were challenging thoses things. We cannot violate loving your neighbour to love your neighbour, that is not how it works and this shouldn't have to be explained. Is there something about this that is confusing?

If a man claims to love his neighbor, and yet treats God and His instruction with indifference and disrespect, how is that not immoral? Didn't the Jesus of the Bible rebuke the Mainstream Preachers of His Time for exalting themselves as judges of God's instruction, deciding which Word of God was worthy of their respect and honor, and which words were not?

How is a man loving his neighbor by promoting such indifference towards God?

Christ says in Mathew 12 "priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath" Christ uses a very strong word to communicate that priests by definition do not keep the Sabbath "yet are innocent".

Levite Priests, in the Levitical Priesthood, were separated from Israel, BY GOD, to minister before HIM in the Priests Office. I can show you where this Biblical Truth is found should you be interested. They were given duties which were forbidden for any other person to partake of like burning fat, sprinkling blood, and other "works of the Law" given specifically to the Priests of God to foreshadow the Coming Priest, "After the Order of Melchizedek", AKA "Messiah". Much of this administration took place on God's Holy Sabbath. You can read about this in the Law and Prophets if you want to understand what Jesus was talking about. Jesus told them in Matt. 12, "But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.".

The Disciples were with the True Temple of God on the Sabbath Days, with Jesus, His Priest, ministering before Him in the Priesthood, as prophesied.

We also know of saving sheep out of pits or oxen out of dirches and we also know people are far more value than sheep. Although useful for the physical this has power spiritual implications.

Although I agree that the Words of the Christ have powerful Spiritual implications, I don't believe HE was advocating disrespect or indifference to any of God's Commandments. Rather HE was pointing out the Hypocrisy of the mainstream religions of His Time. If the Priests of this world who " profess that they know God", can rescue one of their sheep which has fallen into a pit on a Sabbath Day, shall the Prophesied Son of God not be allowed to heal on the Sabbath? After all, HE is the Lord, even of the Sabbath.

Is. 48: 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

There is a heuristic here of how to not just keep the Sabbath but something that is above the Sabbath that allows these cases to violate the Sabbath yet be innocent and the heuristic seems to be driven by serving people over rules.

Because you don't understand the Priesthood, you don't understand why they were allowed to do things that were forbidden by others to do.

The needs are still under Christ so let's not jump to immoral strawmen and the greatest need is being spiritual lost.

There are "many" who profess to know God, that have been convinced they don't need God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments. This has been the case since Eve was convinced of the same thing. I don't believe Jesus is out to convince men God's Commandments, any of them, are not needed by men in these wicked times.

Matt. 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 6: 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This same Christ tells us when HE was "where he was before".

Is. 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

The reason Zacharias, Simeon and Anna knew the Messiah when HE came, and the Pharisees didn't, is because Zacharias drew near his Redeemer, and hearkened to His Commandments, while HE said of the Pharisees "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

This isn't an " Immoral Strawman", and yet it seems to be spiritually lost in this discussion.

As we drive to church on Sabbath (whatever day you call that) how many spiritual lost are there stuck in pits that we drive by?

Why would a man devoted to the Christ of the Bible, "drive" to a man-made shrine of worship made of wood and stone on God's Holy Sabbath? That may be a popular adopted religious tradition, but it isn't mine and certainly wasn't Jesus' and His Disciples as they walked in fellowship on God's Sabbath in the story you posted. The Temple of God exists in men's minds, not manmade shrined of worship made of wood and stone. At least, this is what the Scriptures teach in my understanding.

Would you answer one question for me please? Why were there "Lost men" in the City of David where the supposed Temple of God was built and had existed for centuries?

Many of those people don't response to traditional evangelism and they need to be shown Christ through love in order to see Christ.

Whose Love am I supposed to show others? Shall I show them mine, or God's?

Showing love, is serving them as they are our mission and we are their priest, serving them is work and this work is good and lawful.

I already have a Priest, and this Priest, who the God of the Bible sent, teaches me in the way that I should go. I have HIS Oracles that Paul said was profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So I'm not sure what you are doing. Are you saying all this Work God did for me isn't enough? That Paul is wrong, and I need another self-proclaimed priest to teach me?

The goal is not be busy or find loop holes, or forsaking the fellowship of believers, the goal is to pull sheep out of pits, how can that be called wrong?

Luke 6: 39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

 

[DamianWarS]

Because you don't understand the Priesthood, you don't understand why they were allowed to do things that were forbidden by others to do.

It's Christ's point not mine. He claims the priests "desecrate the Sabbath". Do you wish to argue with Christ that he doesn't understand the priesthood?

Why would a man devoted to the Christ of the Bible, "drive" to a man-made shrine of worship made of wood and stone on God's Holy Sabbath? That may be a popular adopted religious tradition, but it isn't mine and certainly wasn't Jesus' and His Disciples as they walked in fellowship on God's Sabbath in the story you posted. The Temple of God exists in men's minds, not manmade shrined of worship made of wood and stone. At least, this is what the Scriptures teach in my understanding.

Agreed. Religion has 3 main fundamentals. There's the temple, the priest and the sacrifice. And typical practice is the priest does the sacrafice in the temple. Judaism of course is a textbook example of this but Christ turns this on it's head where Christ is temple/priest/sacrifice and through him we are too. So we don't need to seek a holyman in a holy place to say, do or pay something to connect with God instead we have direct access to God

the lost do not have this access to God but they may experience God through us which by definition makes us priests.

If a man claims to love his neighbor, and yet treats God and His instruction with indifference and disrespect, how is that not immoral? Didn't the Jesus of the Bible rebuke the Mainstream Preachers of His Time for exalting themselves as judges of God's instruction, deciding which Word of God was worthy of their respect and honor, and which words were not?

Please do not suggest I disrespect God. Jesus explictly shows examples of how the letter is not kept yet is still lawful and this is what I'm am speaking of. Lawful actions that respect God. Jesus even goes as far as expanding this to a heuristic of "doing good is lawful" which is an echo of the 2 greatest commandments demonstrated in a single action of healing (or pulling sheep out of pits). The good Samaritan is another example where again the two greatest commandments are brought up demonstrated through helping someone in need that others were unwilling to help.

The "doing good" part is demostrated as a lateral focus that can be expanded into the spiritual and it is called lawful. What part do you have a problem with? If the good Samaritan did this all on the Sabbath does he dishonor the Sabbath? Doesn't this parable speak also to the spiritual? How would you minister to someone in a spiritual ditch left for dead by the enemny on a tuesday? Is that act not good? Is that act not lawful also on the Sabbath?

 

[Studyman]

It's Christ's point not mine. He claims the priests "desecrate the Sabbath". Do you wish to argue with Christ that he doesn't understand the priesthood?

I don't believe Jesus was teaching men to desecrate God's Sabbath or break any of God's commandments here. When a man reads what Jesus actually said. "Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests "in the temple" profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

Remember, the Levite Priests were Separated from Israel to minister before God in the Priest's office and was given duties forbidden for a common man to do on the Sabbath days. Israel could not "desecrate the Sabbath" and be "blameless" and Jesus never implied as much. Levite Priests could carry the Arc of the Covenant, and live. But Israel could not even touch the Ark, or they would die instantly. You are missing the Jesus of the Bibles point here in what seems to be an attempt to justify the "desecration of the Sabbath". Jesus is simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the mainstream preachers of His Time who would condemn His Disciples for walking with the Messiah on God's Holy Sabbath and picking a raspberry or ear of corn to eat along the way. Which in the Commandments of Men the Pharisees taught for doctrines, was unlawful. Jesus makes a great point to these hypocrites who had polluted God's Sabbath This is pointed out by Mark's testimony of this event. Mark. 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

I don't agree that the Sabbath was made for men to go mow people's lawns. God gave us 6 days to do these things. The Sabbath Fast the Disciples partook of, in fellowship with their Redeemer apart from the religions of this world, was what it was created for, in my view, based on what the Scriptures actually teach.

Is. 58: 4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Surely there is wisdom in the Word's of God's Priest, my Redeemer. "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

Truly there is a purpose for God's Sabbaths in the life of His People, but I just don't believe it is for mowing lawns or making cakes based on what the Scriptures say.

Thanks for the lively discussion.

 

[DamianWarS]

I don't believe Jesus was teaching men to desecrate God's Sabbath or break any of God's commandments here. When a man reads what Jesus actually said. "Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests "in the temple" profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

Remember, the Levite Priests were Separated from Israel to minister before God in the Priest's office and was given duties forbidden for a common man to do on the Sabbath days. Israel could not "desecrate the Sabbath" and be "blameless" and Jesus never implied as much. Levite Priests could carry the Arc of the Covenant, and live. But Israel could not even touch the Ark, or they would die instantly. You are missing the Jesus of the Bibles point here in what seems to be an attempt to justify the "desecration of the Sabbath". Jesus is simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the mainstream preachers of His Time who would condemn His Disciples for walking with the Messiah on God's Holy Sabbath and picking a raspberry or ear of corn to eat along the way. Which in the Commandments of Men the Pharisees taught for doctrines, was unlawful. Jesus makes a great point to these hypocrites who had polluted God's Sabbath This is pointed out by Mark's testimony of this event. Mark. 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

I don't agree that the Sabbath was made for men to go mow people's lawns. God gave us 6 days to do these things. The Sabbath Fast the Disciples partook of, in fellowship with their Redeemer apart from the religions of this world, was what it was created for, in my view, based on what the Scriptures actually teach.

Is. 58: 4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Surely there is wisdom in the Word's of God's Priest, my Redeemer. "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

Truly there is a purpose for God's Sabbaths in the life of His People, but I just don't believe it is for mowing lawns or making cakes based on what the Scriptures say.

Thanks for the lively discussion.

Jesus' goal is building to the heuristic of doing good is lawful on the Sabbath. This can be retrofitted on all his examples implicitly showing they too are good. healing someone's hand is good but it is not limited to this and simple things like pulling sheep out of pits is also good (or the duties of the priests or David eating sacramental bread). This means anything that is "good" is also lawful on the Sabbath. But this demands the question "what is good" so we know what is lawful.

Goodness can be done any day of the week as the day is not what makes it good but the action/motivation. So pulling sheep out of pits is good on all days of the week. Or an act called good on a Tuesday is also lawful on the Sabbath because "doing good is lawful on the Sabbath"

if I help a neighbour out doing a laborious job on another day of the week can this be called good? That may depend on the motivation but if it is called good then it is also lawful on the Sabbath because if A = B this also means B = A. But if it cannot be conducted on the Sabbath then it cannot be called good on a Tuesday.

By eliminating these actions motivated by doing good on the Sabbath is also implicitly rejecting them from being called good at all. It doesn't stop there, it also disqualifies all "work" from being called good and forces a holy/secular divide for Sabbath/non-Sabbath actions in all areas of life essentially saying if you can't do it on the Sabbath it cannot be called good. This may be a statement you're comfortable with but one that I'm not willing to make.

 

[Soyeong]

You missed the question of the OP. I'm not presenting an argument to dismiss the Sabbath so please don't take it to those lengths. The question is if it's wrong to leave sheep in pits on the Sabbath which unless I misunderstood your post you didn't address this.

Here is a scenario:
1. A sheep is trapped in a pit on the Sabbath
2. You see that the sheep is trapped in the pit
3. You leave the sheep in the pit until the Sabbath is over to rescue it.

Although we know it is good to pull the sheep out even if it's the Sabbath is it wrong to dismiss or delay the rescue of the sheep because it's the Sabbath? Or put another way is it our duty to rescue fallen sheep on the Sabbath? Since we know the motivation is "doing good", as doing good is lawful, is it then our duty to do good on the Sabbath?

Again, it is indeed wrong to leave a sheep in a pit on the Sabbath. We have an duty to act in accordance with God's nature, which includes both goodness and holiness.

 

[Soyeong]

Probably the need is to go back to how God defines "work" compared to how it came to be defined by the mavens and Pharisees.

Paul arrived at a definition that fits Jesus' use of the word:

Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. -- Romans 4

As testified in other places as well, "work" is an action that creates an obligation upon an employer to pay a wage. Work is not maintenance of what one has, but an effort to gain more, to get ahead, to make a profit.

The mavens and the Pharisees had gone too far in their interpretation of "work." Jesus reeled them back in.

The Hebrew word used in regard to the works that is prohibited on the Sabbath specifically refers to creative work, which in accordance with God resting from His creative work on the 7th day, so it is not referring to actions done to make a profit. The creation of the tabernacle also parallels the creation account in Genesis, so the work prohibited on the Sabbath has been traditionally interpreted as prohibiting to the 39 forms of work that went into creation the tabernacle. If Jesus had wanted, he could have easily quoted Rabbi Yehuda as saying that we are permitted to crush grains of wheat on the Sabbath as long as we don't use a tool. Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent of breaking the Sabbath because it was not intended to be understood as causing people to go hungry, just as in Exodus 23:11, where people were permitted to eat from the land for their own consumption during the 7th year while the land was being given a rest.

 

[RDKirk]

The Hebrew word used in regard to the works that is prohibited on the Sabbath specifically refers to creative work, which in accordance with God resting from His creative work on the 7th day, so it is not referring to actions done to make a profit. The creation of the tabernacle also parallels the creation account in Genesis, so the work prohibited on the Sabbath has been traditionally interpreted as prohibiting to the 39 forms of work that went into creation the tabernacle. If Jesus had wanted, he could have easily quoted Rabbi Yehuda as saying that we are permitted to crush grains of wheat on the Sabbath as long as we don't use a tool. Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent of breaking the Sabbath because it was not intended to be understood as causing people to go hungry, just as in Exodus 23:11, where people were permitted to eat from the land for their own consumption during the 7th year while the land was being given a rest.

I said, "...but an effort to gain more, to get ahead, to make a profit."

That includes "creative" work, and I'd argue that in ancient times, that is what "creative" was all about. Not even artisans of that time "created" for the sake of art, but for commerce or religion.

 

[Soyeong]

I said, "...but an effort to gain more, to get ahead, to make a profit."

That includes "creative" work, and I'd argue that in ancient times, that is what "creative" was all about. Not even artisans of that time "created" for the sake of art, but for commerce or religion.

I agree that creative work is inclusive of work done to earn a profit, but the point of the command its to rest from our creative work as God rested from His, not about specifically about whether it earns a profit.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree that creative work is inclusive of work done to earn a profit, but the point of the command its to rest from our creative work as God rested from His, not about specifically about whether it earns a profit.

My statement was not limited to "earn a profit."

However, Paul's definition of work (which is actually the only definition we as Christians need be concerned about) was very much based on "intended to create an obligation" whether you want to call that obligation "profit" or not. He makes that explicit: We cannot levy an obligation of salvation upon God regardless what we do.

 

[Soyeong]

My statement was not limited to "earn a profit."

However, Paul's definition of work (which is actually the only definition we as Christians need be concerned about) was very much based on "intended to create an obligation" whether you want to call that obligation "profit" or not. He makes that explicit: We cannot levy an obligation of salvation upon God regardless what we do.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so our salvation is not earned as a wage as the result of having done those works and doing those works is not the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience doing those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to drive a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving, but does not detract from the fact that the opportunity to experience driving it was completely given to them as a gift and does nothing to obligate that experience to be given to them. In a similar manner, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to have eternal life through knowing God and Jesus (Romans 10:2-4), not to obligate God to give us eternal life.

In any case, the Sabbath is about resting from our creative works just as God rested from His (Hebrews 4:10), not specifically about prohibiting earning a wage.