Is it wrong to leave sheep in pits on the Sabbath?

[DamianWarS]

The Hebrew word used in regard to the works that is prohibited on the Sabbath specifically refers to creative work, which in accordance with God resting from His creative work on the 7th day, so it is not referring to actions done to make a profit. The creation of the tabernacle also parallels the creation account in Genesis, so the work prohibited on the Sabbath has been traditionally interpreted as prohibiting to the 39 forms of work that went into creation the tabernacle. If Jesus had wanted, he could have easily quoted Rabbi Yehuda as saying that we are permitted to crush grains of wheat on the Sabbath as long as we don't use a tool. Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent of breaking the Sabbath because it was not intended to be understood as causing people to go hungry, just as in Exodus 23:11, where people were permitted to eat from the land for their own consumption during the 7th year while the land was being given a rest.

The Hebrew word in question is H4399. It is rooted in the word for a messenger (H4397/8) and it's parent root is a message (לך) the pictographs are of a shepherds crook (lamed) and a hand (khaf) together they mean "staff in hand" abstractly meaning "walk" and concretely "message" one who carries a message goes on a journey with their staff in hand, staff in hand means they ready and active. The person is a messenger and represents someone greater than they are doing their bidding. They dont rest their staff until the message is delivered. This is a employer/employee relationship thus the concept for work. The idea that it is creative work is anecdotal. Work by nature is creative, especially work of the ancient world.

 

[Soyeong]

The Hebrew word in question is H4399. It is rooted in the word for a messenger (H4397/8) and it's parent root is a message (לך) the pictographs are of a shepherds crook (lamed) and a hand (khaf) together they mean "staff in hand" abstractly meaning "walk" and concretely "message" one who carries a message goes on a journey with their staff in hand, staff in hand means they ready and active. The person is a messenger and represents someone greater than they are doing their bidding. They dont rest their staff until the message is delivered. This is a employer/employee relationship thus the concept for work. The idea that it is creative work is anecdotal. Work by nature is creative, especially work of the ancient world.

It was a Jewish rabbi who is fluent in Hebrew and is close to having a master's degree in Semitic languages who told me that it refers to creative work rather than work done to earn a wage. There is is also the fact that it is used in Genesis 2:2 to refer to the work of Creation that God did and God does not have an employer. It is more akin to someone choosing to create a statute, getting to point where it is just the way the way that they wanted it where taking another stroke with a chisel would detract from what they had created, and then ceasing from the work of creation in order to spend time enjoying their creation than with someone taking a break after completing a task for someone else. There is also the fact that it has been traditionally interpreted by Jews as referring to the 39 forms of work involved in creating the tabernacle.

 

[DamianWarS]

It was a Jewish rabbi who is fluent in Hebrew and is close to having a master's degree in Semitic languages who told me that it refers to creative work rather than work done to earn a wage. There is is also the fact that it is used in Genesis 2:2 to refer to the work of Creation that God did and God does not have an employer. It is more akin to someone choosing to create a statute, getting to point where it is just the way the way that they wanted it where taking another stroke with a chisel would detract from what they had created, and then ceasing from the work of creation in order to spend time enjoying their creation than with someone taking a break after completing a task for someone else. There is also the fact that it has been traditionally interpreted by Jews as referring to the 39 forms of work involved in creating the tabernacle.

It doesnt make it less anecdotal by using a Jewish Rabbi. Words are imperfect and their etymology gives it a history of the meaning but it doesn't have to carry that explict history with it. So the word may be used for God without him being an employee. There are enough examples of the word being used in other ways in the OT that would conflict your point.

 

[Soyeong]

It doesnt make it less anecdotal by using a Jewish Rabbi. Words are imperfect and their etymology gives it a history of the meaning but it doesn't have to carry that explict history with it. So the word may be used for God without him being an employee. There are enough examples of the word being used in other ways in the OT that would conflict your point.

Citing an expert is not anecdotal. What are examples that you think conflict with my point?

 

[DamianWarS]

Citing an expert is not anecdotal. What are examples that you think conflict with mu point?

Citing a personal experience with a Rabbi who almost has his masters is anecdotal. Your example is also void of explanation. At best it drives us to look into the idea deeper but left at "some Rabbi told me" is not deep enough. My issue is less about your conclusion and more about how you got there and then using that to steer a teaching.

 

[DamianWarS]

My statement was not limited to "earn a profit."

However, Paul's definition of work (which is actually the only definition we as Christians need be concerned about) was very much based on "intended to create an obligation" whether you want to call that obligation "profit" or not. He makes that explicit: We cannot levy an obligation of salvation upon God regardless what we do.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so our salvation is not earned as a wage as the result of having done those works and doing those works is not the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience doing those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to drive a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving, but does not detract from the fact that the opportunity to experience driving it was completely given to them as a gift and does nothing to obligate that experience to be given to them. In a similar manner, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to have eternal life through knowing God and Jesus (Romans 10:2-4), not to obligate God to give us eternal life.

In any case, the Sabbath is about resting from our creative works just as God rested from His (Hebrews 4:10), not specifically about prohibiting earning a wage.

Before this gets out of control try and rephrase your replies so that they are keeping with the topic presented in the op. I'm interested in the conversation of how the Sabbath is about pulling sheep out of pits not about defining rest and or work.

 

[Studyman]

Before this gets out of control try and rephrase your replies so that they are keeping with the topic presented in the op. I'm interested in the conversation of how the Sabbath is about pulling sheep out of pits not about defining rest and or work.

It is your religious philosophy you are promoting here. What others have tried to show you, is a perspective that comes from listening to "Every Word" of God, as the Jesus of the Bible teaches. Even a satan worshipper would recover his own sheep if it fell into a pit on Saturday. The God of the Bible sanctified and set apart this one day of the week to be different, or in other words, The God and Father of the Lord's Christ "Esteemed" one day above the others. You are promoting a religion in which there is no such distinction. Surely your views are widely held by this world's religions. But it is a view that, in my understanding of what the Scriptures actually say, was not held by the Christ of the Bible, or His Disciples.

Deceived, by definition means believing things that are not true. Jesus called those deceived mainstream preachers of His Time, "Blind". How can a blind (deceived) man, pull other blind (deceived) men out of a pit, shall they both not fall in?

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

I think you are making a mistake in promoting that God's Sabbath is about "the other guy", when Jesus said it was made for you.

 

[DamianWarS]

It is your religious philosophy you are promoting here. What others have tried to show you, is a perspective that comes from listening to "Every Word" of God, as the Jesus of the Bible teaches. Even a satan worshipper would recover his own sheep if it fell into a pit on Saturday. The God of the Bible sanctified and set apart this one day of the week to be different, or in other words, The God and Father of the Lord's Christ "Esteemed" one day above the others. You are promoting a religion in which there is no such distinction. Surely your views are widely held by this world's religions. But it is a view that, in my understanding of what the Scriptures actually say, was not held by the Christ of the Bible, or His Disciples.

Deceived, by definition means believing things that are not true. Jesus called those deceived mainstream preachers of His Time, "Blind". How can a blind (deceived) man, pull other blind (deceived) men out of a pit, shall they both not fall in?

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

I think you are making a mistake in promoting that God's Sabbath is about "the other guy", when Jesus said it was made for you.

This is just a a response telling me I'm wrong in long form without a single word of critical engagement. Do you know I can call you blind too and fire the same scripture back at you? Without the critical engagement it is nothing more than a child's retort.

Do you care to engage the OP or just tell me I'm wrong with a "because I said so" sentiment? (Pleae choose the former it will make me far less frustrated)

Christ says it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. He shows us how goodness breaks through the divide of the Sabbath. So in action preparing a rope, securing it, lowering yourself down a pit to lugging up a rock, that's firmly stuck in place, up with you is against the Sabbath, yet when that rock turns into a fallen sheep the exact same action that was considered forbidden is now lawful.

Christ immediately asks "How much more valuable is a person than a sheep!" Do you think he ment physical life only? Or might this extend to spiritual life which is pretty much what he always means when he brings up sheep?

Just as with the sheep are not our actions lawful and "good" when we set out to rescue spiritual life? Tell me what exactly does that look like or do you care to only define the sinners prayer and not the months and years of "work" prior to? Tell me when did God rest during creation? Did he rest because he was tired or because the work was finished? When did Christ die because his physical body gave out or because he proclaimed "it is finished".

How can we rest when there is so much unfinished work? Is not that rest a false rest?

 

[biblelesson]

We know rescuing sheep on the Sabbath is good and doing good is lawful on the Sabbath. This is revealed by Christ so I'm sure we can all agree on the explict examples before we spiritualize them or give them more definition.

Its clear if physical sheep are stuck in physical pits then It is good to rescue them. But does this mean implicitly it is wrong to delay their rescue because of the Sabbath or put in another way is it our duty to pull sheep out of pits on the Sabbath?

If this is too difficult to answer in the spiritual than before we define the spiritual or expand on their physical conterparts lets stay in the physical. Is it wrong to leave physical sheep in physical pits on the Sabbath?

Once we establish that then we can expand on things like what sheep and pits are and what is involved with pulling them out. But I'm not sure why we need to define work/rest to establish if it's wrong to leave sheep in pits on the Sabbath.

When Jesus addressed that there is nothing wrong with doing good on the sabbath regarding the sheep, he was addressing hypocrites.

Now, you are addressing this issue on the opposite side. If you chose to leave the sheep in the pit because it’s the sabbath, you ask is that wrong.

Well it depends. Jesus was not addressing a duty, he was addressing hypocrisy. So if your sheep falls in a ditch on the sabbath, and the sheep is not hurt or in any distress, and you know you can safely leave the sheep until after the sabbath, then you are not wrong, but it might be and indication of where the heart is. If a person decides to leave their animal in a ditch because it’s the sabbath, that goes into being heartless. Would you want to be rescued from a ditch? Animals have feelings also.

 

[DamianWarS]

When Jesus addressed that there is nothing wrong with doing good on the sabbath regarding the sheep, he was addressing hypocrites.

Now, you are addressing this issue on the opposite side. If you chose to leave the sheep in the pit because it’s the sabbath, you ask is that wrong.

Well it depends. Jesus was not addressing a duty, he was addressing hypocrisy. So if your sheep falls in a ditch on the sabbath, and the sheep is not hurt or in any distress, and you know you can safely leave the sheep until after the sabbath, then you are not wrong, but it might be and indication of where the heart is. If a person decides to leave their animal in a ditch because it’s the sabbath, that goes into being heartless. Would you want to be rescued from a ditch? Animals have feelings also.

Christ uses saving sheep as a segue to show how much more valuable people are than sheep he then heals the man and speaks how not just recusing sheep or healing hands are lawful but how goodness itself is lawful which is an heuristic approach of how to look at the Sabbath not an list of dos and don'ts

When the Bible speaks of sheep it often is a hint that it's not actually talking about sheep, or physical pits but of the spiritual. Just as Christ shows us that people are more valuable then sheep so too is spiritual of more importance than the physical (Mt 5:30)

So sheep in pits are not just physical sheep in physical pits and it can be the lost trapped in darkness that needs light to be spoken into in order to get out.

If walking past bleeting sheep trapped in pits on the Sabbath is wrong just as those who walked past the man left for dead in the ditch is wrong in the good Samaritan than how much more is it wrong to walk past spiritual crys of the lost trapped in darkness? The lost need help and we are the ones to help them regardless of what day it is, it is good.

Think of a single mom who just started to rent the house next to you. She drives up in a uhaul truck fulp of her household things and is tasked to move it all of this herself. Do you close the blinds and say sorry I can't help because it's the Sabbath or do you walk over and start lifting boxes? Which answer speaks Christ? No physical life is in distress but yet you can choose to show love to your neighbour or shut or push it to another day. Which one do you think she would recieve more?

 

[Studyman]

This is just a a response telling me I'm wrong in long form without a single word of critical engagement. Do you know I can call you blind too and fire the same scripture back at you? Without the critical engagement it is nothing more than a child's retort.

Do you care to engage the OP or just tell me I'm wrong with a "because I said so" sentiment? (Pleae choose the former it will make me far less frustrated)

I was pointing out some Biblical Facts that you seem to disregard in order to justify your belief that mowing a man's Lawn on Tuesday is "good", therefore mowing the same lawn on God's Holy Sabbath, is also "good". And to point out that it was never against God's Law to help a brother on God's Sabbath days. The mainstream preachers of Jesus Time were hypocrites, and Jesus used this occasion to expose them. As HE tells us;

For they (Pharisees) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

They rebuked Jesus for helping a man on God's Sabbath as unlawful "work", while they themselves would rescue their own sheep if it fell into danger on the Sabbath. His question was perfect. "How much better is a man than a sheep".

You want to use this as justification do relegate God's Sabbath irrelevant. The Christ of the Bible didn't promote such an agenda.

Christ says it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. He shows us how goodness breaks through the divide of the Sabbath. So in action preparing a rope, securing it, lowering yourself down a pit to lugging up a rock, that's firmly stuck in place, up with you is against the Sabbath, yet when that rock turns into a fallen sheep the exact same action that was considered forbidden is now lawful.

Yes, I agree. It wouldn't be cruel and heartless to leave a rock in a pit until after the sabbath, just as it wouldn't be cruel or heartless to leave a lawn un-mowed until after the sabbath, or a cake un-baked.

Jesus spoke to this popular religious idea that man's definition of "Good" supersedes God's Commandments.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is apparent that these "Christians" definition of "Good" wasn't God's definition of "Good". All I and others are advocating for, is the honor and respect the Holy One of Israel deserves by considering "Every Word of God" for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: As opposed to taking one sentence, separate it from the rest of Scriptures, then create doctrine by it, as you are doing here.

Christ immediately asks "How much more valuable is a person than a sheep!" Do you think he ment physical life only? Or might this extend to spiritual life which is pretty much what he always means when he brings up sheep?

There is no question that Jesus was not breaking God's Holy Sabbath Commandment by healing a man, physically or spiritually on the Holy Sabbaths of God.

Just as with the sheep are not our actions lawful and "good" when we set out to rescue spiritual life?

Teaching men to discard God's Commandments in the name of some random man's definition of "Good", certainly isn't rescuing spiritual life.

Tell me what exactly does that look like or do you care to only define the sinners prayer and not the months and years of "work" prior to? Tell me when did God rest during creation? Did he rest because he was tired or because the work was finished? When did Christ die because his physical body gave out or because he proclaimed "it is finished".

The Christ of the bible was murdered. At least according to Scriptures.

How can we rest when there is so much unfinished work? Is not that rest a false rest?

Hey, I get it. Men despise God's Holy Sabbath Days. They don't believe HE understood what HE was doing when HE created His Holy Sabbath for these same men. That the Holy One of Israel, who became flesh, was somehow ignorant of this world we live in, when HE created the Sabbath commandment and instructed men to keep it Holy.

I think this mindset is a mistake, even though it has been made by religious people since Eve was convinced God didn't know what HE was talking about.

It is God who adds to His Church, not you or I. WE are simply servants to whomever we "Yield ourselves" to obey.

But as Jesus said; "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[DamianWarS]

was pointing out some Biblical Facts that you seem to disregard in order to justify your belief that mowing a man's Lawn on Tuesday is "good", therefore mowing the same lawn on God's Holy Sabbath, is also "good". And to point out that it was never against God's Law to help a brother on God's Sabbath days. The mainstream preachers of Jesus Time were hypocrites, and Jesus used this occasion to expose them. As HE tells us;

For they (Pharisees) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

They rebuked Jesus for helping a man on God's Sabbath as unlawful "work", while they themselves would rescue their own sheep if it fell into danger on the Sabbath. His question was perfect. "How much better is a man than a sheep".

You want to use this as justification do relegate God's Sabbath irrelevant. The Christ of the Bible didn't promote such an agenda.

The point is if it's good on another day then why is it not good on the Sabbath? The sabbath itself is not a goodness qualifier, an act may be good with or without the Sabbath. If we agree that some labour is good then why isn't that labour good on the Sabbath? If you disagree with this it would be better to show me why the goodness of x labour may be good on everyday of the week except the Sabbath. It's a logic problem that no one seems to want to critically engage but rather just say it's wrong and pretend that's enough.

Yes, I agree. It wouldn't be cruel and heartless to leave a rock in a pit until after the sabbath, just as it wouldn't be cruel or heartless to leave a lawn un-mowed until after the sabbath, or a cake un-baked.

Jesus spoke to this popular religious idea that man's definition of "Good" supersedes God's Commandments.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is apparent that these "Christians" definition of "Good" wasn't God's definition of "Good". All I and others are advocating for, is the honor and respect the Holy One of Israel deserves by considering "Every Word of God" for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: As opposed to taking one sentence, separate it from the rest of Scriptures, then create doctrine by it, as you are doing here

Leaving a rock in a pit, leaving grass unmowed or a cake unbaked is not the point and im sorry you feel the need to reduce it to that. I don't care about rocks, grass or cake I care about reaching the lost. If reaching the lost means servant-led labour (like mowing the lawn) then that serves as a mechanism to reach the lost and this is what makes it good. Do you disagree if this was any other day? So why does it change if it's the Sabbath or does it loose its goodness?

There is no question that Jesus was not breaking God's Holy Sabbath Commandment by healing a man, physically or spiritually on the Holy Sabbaths of God.

Indeed, but the method to reach someone in these places of distress may vary. To some a kind word is enough, to others more creative approaches are needed. This is the freedom Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 9.

The Christ of the bible was murdered. At least according to Scriptures.

"he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

You may choose to ignore the timing but Christ's remarks delare his work finished not out of the inconvience of plotting men but out of divine appointment.

Hey, I get it. Men despise God's Holy Sabbath Days. They don't believe HE understood what HE was doing when HE created His Holy Sabbath for these same men. That the Holy One of Israel, who became flesh, was somehow ignorant of this world we live in, when HE created the Sabbath commandment and instructed men to keep it Holy.

I think this mindset is a mistake, even though it has been made by religious people since Eve was convinced God didn't know what HE was talking about.

It is God who adds to His Church, not you or I. WE are simply servants to whomever we "Yield ourselves" to obey.

But as Jesus said; "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

We have no power to change the hearts of man but we do partner with Christ in his work which is why the work is good. Christ says it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. I'm not adding to Christ's words, good is good. Making lists of what good things are allowed and what good things are not on the Sabbath would be adding to his words.

 

[Studyman]

The point is if it's good on another day then why is it not good on the Sabbath? The sabbath itself is not a goodness qualifier, an act may be good with or without the Sabbath. If we agree that some labour is good then why isn't that labour good on the Sabbath? If you disagree with this it would be better to show me why the goodness of x labour may be good on everyday of the week except the Sabbath. It's a logic problem that no one seems to want to critically engage but rather just say it's wrong and pretend that's enough.

That really isn't the point at all. The point is whether God's Sabbath is relevant. You are preaching it isn't. I was simply pointing out that Jesus, the Law and Prophets, and Paul do not share your religious philosophy. You are judging God as incompetent here, and inferior to you in logic.

It is "Good" to gather sticks for fire or to work for money to feed a family. "Work" is Good. God gave men 6 Days in which to "Do" their "good". But the 7th Day, belongs to Him. He sanctified it, HE Separated it, and HE made it Holy. As a result, it is not your day to "honor yourself" or to glorify yourself with all your outward "good" deeds. Rather, it is a day set apart by God for a Specific purpose which HE details and I posted, but you refused to even acknowledge.

You are preaching to the world that God's Sabbath is illogical. That if making money and engaging with this world during the week is "Good", then the same "Good" by your logic, should also be OK on God's Holy Sabbaths.

I am simply pointing out that there is no Words of Christ, or the scriptures which share your religious ideals in this matter.

Leaving a rock in a pit, leaving grass unmowed or a cake unbaked is not the point and im sorry you feel the need to reduce it to that. I don't care about rocks, grass or cake I care about reaching the lost. If reaching the lost means servant-led labour (like mowing the lawn) then that serves as a mechanism to reach the lost and this is what makes it good. Do you disagree if this was any other day? So why does it change if it's the Sabbath or does it loose its goodness?

I simply disagree that you honor God by teaching others to reject His Commandmnent, which is what you are doing. So if you teach a lost soul that God's Commandments are not even worthy of their respect or honor, where would that lead? If a man has exalted himself to the point of judge God and His Laws regarding which ones are worthy of your respect and honor, and which ones are not,, where does that lead? If God's Sabbath is not considered Holy to you, and you promote your religion onto others, who also then relegate God's Sabbath as nothing special, what would that lead to?

Before you know it, you will have people creating huge religious businesses, in the name of "Jesus", amassing untold wealth for the fortunate few all for their definition of "Good". You would have religions creating images of God in the likeness of some random long haired men's hair shampoo model, and then placing Jesus Name on it, all in the name of "good". You would have religions rejecting God's Statutes, and Feasts, and creating their own high days founded on ancient Pagan Gods, in the name of "Good". Pretty soon the prophesy below would repeat itself, like so many have.

Ex. 20: 11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Why on earth would I want to treat God in this manner given all HE has done for me? Can I do "Good" on God's Sabbath, and not defile His Holy Day? Of course I can. But not by treating His Holy Day no different than others.

These men in Ezekiel didn't respect God enough to honor Him in His Sabbaths. Here is what Jesus said of their children who promoted their same religion.

Matt. 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Shall a man not also consider these Word's of God as well?

Indeed, but the method to reach someone in these places of distress may vary. To some a kind word is enough, to others more creative approaches are needed. This is yhe freedom Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 9.

You aren't the first to accuse Paul of rejecting God's Laws in order to convert them to Repentance.

Rom. 3: 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

1 Cor. 9: 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Paul didn't reject God's Law in order to reach men who didn't know God's Law. He says so right here. Paul was free from religious tradition, from deception and sin. He wasn't "Free" from God's "instruction in righteousness".

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

"he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

Acts 7: 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

You may choose to ignore the timing but Christ's remarks delare his work finished not out of the inconvience of plotting men but out of divine appointment.

What I ignore are those "many" who come in Christ's Name, that Jesus warned about. Jesus said "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." But you must ignore these Words in order to promote the religious philosophy that God's Sabbath is no more Holy than any other day. The point being, the Jesus of the Bible never taught this. If HE did, you would be blaring it from the housetops. But HE didn't.

The Christ had Many Jobs tasked to Him by His Father. He created all things, and when it was done, HE said it was finished.

Gen. 2: 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

The Holy One of Israel, the Rock that they drank and ate from, was to become a man and be killed.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now we wait for his return which has yet to be fulfilled.

Matt. 13: 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

1 Thess. 1: 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

We have no power to change the hearts of man but we do partner with Christ in his work which is why the work is good. Christ says it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. I'm not adding to Christ's words, good is good. Making lists of what good things are allowed and what good things are not on the Sabbath would be adding to his words.

Like I said early on, you have your mind made up. But treating God's Sabbath as unholy or no different than any other day, and teaching others to do the same, is not what the Christ of the bible teaches you. This world's religions teach this, but not the Christ of the Bible.

This is why it's important to listen to "ALL" of His Words, and not just those that can be separated from the rest of the bible and used to promote one of this world's many differing religious philosophies.

Mark. 2: 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

I will leave you with just one question if you could answer it.

Ez. 20: 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

In your religion, is this the same Christ who said "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

 

[ralliann]

The only reason that question exists is because God forbade work on the sabbath. So the first thing to understand is "What did God actually forbid?" We don't need to know what sheep are, because the focus of the law is on work, not on sheep.

Is this not likened to the eating of the shewbread by David and his men? That was only for the priests to eat.

 

[RDKirk]

Is this not likened to the eating of the shewbread by David and his men? That was only for the priests to eat.

Scripture takes pains to point out that the shewbread David and his men ate had already been removed from God's Presence and had been replaced by fresh bread. It also points out that the high priest's requirement was that the eaters must be clean of recent sexual intercourse, which David affirmed for himself and his men.

The OT itself does not indicate that David and his men or the high priest did anything sinful, or that Jewish rabbis and lawyers since then had decided they had done anything sinful, which is precisely why Jesus could use it as an example.

 

[Studyman]

Is this not likened to the eating of the shewbread by David and his men? That was only for the priests to eat.

For the record, David came to the Priest and asked for help. The Priest helped him and his friends as he should have.

Mal. 2: 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

The Priest asked questions, and made a judgment based on the answers. That is what a Priest is supposed to do.

 

[DamianWarS]

are preaching it isn't

are judging God as incompetent here, and inferior to you in logic.

You are preaching to the world that God's Sabbath is illogical.

I simply disagree that you honor God by teaching others to reject His Commandmnent,

treating God's Sabbath as unholy or no different than any other day

You seem determined to point out how wrong I am and how anti-God I am being

In the end Christ tells us it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath and I didn't make that up. No one is engaging this point. at best you can fire off all this scripture about what the Sabbath is or isn't but none of it addresses putting limits on goodness.

To build his point Christ says "haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?" We can get into a lengthy discussion about the role of the priests and unpack why they are innocent of any wrongdoing according to the law yet Christ still chooses to say they desecrate the Sabbath to build his point which is aggressive language. You are accusing me of the same, that I'm desecrating the Sabbath yet ironically it's the same point Christ makes yet he declares goodness is lawful.

Rather than define the Sabbath for me why not define goodness for me so I may understand how you judge what is good and what is not? Are you suggesting there is a different goodness for the Sabbath than the other days? Does that not just avoid Christ's point?

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath so I promote goodness and all you can accuse me of is sin. And I'm the one rejecting God's truths?

 

[ralliann]

For the record, David came to the Priest and asked for help. The Priest helped him and his friends as he should have.

Mal. 2: 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

The Priest asked questions, and made a judgment based on the answers. That is what a Priest is supposed to do.

You did not answer the question? It is very similar yes?

 

[ralliann]

Scripture takes pains to point out that the shewbread David and his men ate had already been removed from God's Presence and had been replaced by fresh bread. It also points out that the high priest's requirement was that the eaters must be clean of recent sexual intercourse, which David affirmed for himself and his men.

The OT itself does not indicate that David and his men or the high priest did anything sinful, or that Jewish rabbis and lawyers since then had decided they had done anything sinful, which is precisely why Jesus could use it as an example.

The priests also defiled the sabbath without guilt.

 

[RDKirk]

The priests also defiled the sabbath without guilt.

So is it your argument that David and the high priest sinned?