is it wrong to drink alcohol/wine

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Stanfi

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Oblio said:
At the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (Acts 2) we see that the Apostles were accused of being drunk early in the day. A bit hard to do with grape juice. There are also several admonitions not to abuse wine in Scripture, again this indicates that it was fermented.
The apostoles were filled with the Holy Spirit. The person who said they were full of wine was mocking them. The crowd was trying to come up with a reason or the apostoles actions. Being filled with the Holy Spirit was a new thing.


As far as those of you requesting that I be more specific. All I am going to say, if you don't think it is Christ like to do something, then you had better not be doing it. You are going to be judged for everyone thing that you do on earth. I don't have to give an account for you, so if you think it's ok to drink. Then have at it. Obviously I don't think it is an acceptable practice for a Christian to be partaking in.
 
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Oblio

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The apostoles were filled with the Holy Spirit. The person who said they were full of wine was mocking them. The crowd was trying to come up with a reason or the apostoles actions. Being filled with the Holy Spirit was a new thing.

It wasn't actually a new thing (c.f. the Prophets), but for a body of believers (i.e. the Church) to be communally filled with the Holy Spirit was new, it was this filling that allows the Church as a whole to guide Christians in matters of faith and praxis.

That being said, they were mocking the members of the Church by saying that they were drunk, which would be impossible on unfermented juice, hence it was oinos, wine, just as we find it today from the markets of the USA to the monasteries of Mt. Athos Greece.

All I am going to say, if you don't think it is Christ like to do something, then you had better not be doing it. You are going to be judged for everyone thing that you do on earth. I don't have to give an account for you, so if you think it's ok to drink.

So the deciding factor is what you think is Christlike when it comes to a certain activity ? How do you know that your interpretation of Scripture is correct and is not influenced by the evil one ? When you ask yourself WWJD, who is answering ? How can you be sure ??
 
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oworm

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Well i just got back from the supermarket and they didnt have my usuall brand of beer so i picked up the next best alternative:

Hmm cant post an image yet......... anyway, it was becks ALCOHOL FREE rfl:D :D :D Who says God doesnt have a sense of humour?:D
Actually it tastes ok. I might just stick with it.
 
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Oblio

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I'll have to try it as we are in a fast season (no alcohol on most Wed/Fri for us Orthodox), most near beer is pretty awful.

The silly thing is that here in the Southern US, they cannot even sell near beer on Sun :( , also you must be 21 to puchase it. Seeing as you would have to drink enough to kill you before you were intoxicated, I find that a bit silly.
 
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oworm

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Oblio said:
I'll have to try it as we are in a fast season (no alcohol on most Wed/Fri for us Orthodox), most near beer is pretty awful.
I tried alcohol free some years ago and yes it was pretty awful. No discernible difference with this stuff. They must have improved the extraction process.
 
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seangoh

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Oblio said:
It wasn't actually a new thing (c.f. the Prophets), but for a body of believers (i.e. the Church) to be communally filled with the Holy Spirit was new, it was this filling that allows the Church as a whole to guide Christians in matters of faith and praxis.

That being said, they were mocking the members of the Church by saying that they were drunk, which would be impossible on unfermented juice, hence it was oinos, wine, just as we find it today from the markets of the USA to the monasteries of Mt. Athos Greece.
Certainly i don't see them as being actually drunk. The accusation of the mockers would suggest that there was an element of excitement in the manner and tone of the disciples. It would have been strange, indeed, if they [disciples]had spoken in an altogether calm, or casual, manner. The great power of God was upon them, and their theme one of vast import. Bear in mind that Christ was always followed by people who opposed Him to wait for a chance to accuse Him. The Jews had attributed some of our Lord’s miracles to the power of the chief of devils (Luke 11:15), and Festus pronounced Paul mad (Acts 26:24). The priests had mocked Christ on the cross (Matt. 27:41–43), and were capable of instigating base rumors to account for this miracle of tongues lest it weaken their priestly hold on the people. So when they mocked the disciples, they were trying to induce more negativism than presenting factual accounts.

When you ask yourself WWJD, who is answering ? How can you be sure ??
With regards to alcoholic drinks, we can look at John 2 for an illustration. It was a wedding in Cana of Galilee and Jesus was there. Earlier on in Scripture it says :

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceivedthereby is not wise." Prov. 20:1.

"They also have erred through wine . . . they err in vision, they
stumble in judgment." Isa. 28:7.

"Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness.
Rom." 13:13.

Back to that wedding, Jesus requested water to be turned to wine. Now you can grab out your Hebrew and Greek to study what kind of wine was John 2 referring to but i wouldn't need to do that. Just logical thinking can give you the answer. WWJD??? Certainly the wine wasn't strong drink or alcoholic drink. Why? Because this appararantly was a grand marriage and would have alot of people coming to it. Jesus knew the Scriptures and definitely would not want any slight chance that the people would get drunk. He had to be sure that He wasn't a stumbling block to anyone by changing it to alcoholic drink. So my conclusion is, i don't know exactly what wine it was, but certainly it wasn't alcoholic that would make anyone drunk.
 
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Oblio

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And wine also makes glad the heart of man :)

The problem with that reasoning is that you assume that they are (or would be) pounding down glass after glass unrestrained. As any responsible wine or beer drinker knows, you can space your consumption so as not to become drunk, even if there is enough there to get drunk if you so desired. (This is a requirement in the Baptist south where you are oppressed from buying alcohol on Sunday and must 'stock up'). Also remember, unlike modern somewhat prudish (WRT responsible alcohol use in open society) America, ancient Palestine was likely quite different and it is not inconceivable that responsible use of alcoholic beverages was the norm and not an animal house toga party just because there was good wine for all the guests.

And you miss my point about Acts 2, the fact that they were accused of being drunk, means that there was a reasonable method for them to get drunk on wine, not that they were (which, like you I do not think).
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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I'd agree totally.

We had this reading at our wedding, to remind us that Jesus was a guest at a wedding, and at ours.

And like the wedding at Cana, there was plenty of drink going around. No-one got drunk. But I love a good beer, and there was no way I was going to celebrate our wedding without a few pints. It's our culture, and drunkenness doesn't come into it.
 
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Jeffery

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Every unsaved drunk and wine head knows 1 Timothy 5:23.

He was told to take a "LITTLE" for his "STOMACH" and "INFIRMITIES" and not to drink water.

1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

(Timothy was never called an Apostle, just a brother.)
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Jeffery said:
If Moses, called a man of God, could not handle wine, what makes you think you or I can?
Experience. I know I can. Most people can. The vast majority of British adults drink. A tiny fraction of a percentage are alcoholics.

Why does no-one answer the point that Jesus drank and therefore it cannot be a sin?
 
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Oblio

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Why was he called a wine-bibber ?

There is no historical or Scriptural evidence that Jews of Palestine drank unfermented wine as the norm.

Grape juice will naturally ferment, and to allow it to do so allows the alcohol to preserve it from spoilage. This was common especially for long trips at sea when water would quicly turn rancid. Why twist Scripture to enforce or justify modern day Puritanism ?
 
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prince didymus

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Jeffery said:
If Moses, called a man of God, could not handle wine, what makes you think you or I can?
That doesn't mean anything. Just because he couldn't handle wine and is a man of God doesn't mean others (who may also be children of God) cannot drink and be in control of themselves. I for one know I can drink and 'handle' wine.
 
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Oblio

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Jeffery said:
But according to what the Scriptures say about strong drink, why would you want to displease God?

I am not a OT Levite, priest or prophet.

OTOH, a verse for all of God's Children:

Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Nowhere is there an commandment to not drink wine given to a Christian.
 
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Jeffery

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"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not..


When Jesus was conducting the last supper with his disciples, he says; "I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the day when I drink it new." He was referring to the juice in the cup (See Mark 14:25 and Luke 22:18). Deuteronomy 32:14 also makes it clear that this juice is "...the pure blood of the grape." And, just so you would know, God makes it clear in Isaiah 65:8 that new wine is found in the cluster.



The Lord Jesus Christ was not a winebibber. The Pharisees did accuse Him of being gluttonous, a winebibber and having a devil, but all three charges were false.
 
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Hands&Feet

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Please don't take this offensively, but this entire argument is just one of those legalistic things we westerners tend to dream up...I guess out of boredom.
When fellowshipping with very committed believers in Ukraine, I found them to drinkvodka like it was iced tea.
In Ireland, beer is practically a staple. There are areas of the US that I have been in where many people in spirit-filled congregations smoked and thought nothing of it.
Everything we do , if done to the extreme, can become harmful to us or to those around us.

I still contend that part of the problem with the western expression of the church is that we have become so narcissitic that we often take our eyes off the real calling we have--being the hands and feet of our Lord to a hurting world. If we open our eyes to the real sins of the world, these petty little arguments become insignificant. The result is two-fold: We actually begin to be productive and we start making a difference in the world in the name of Jesus and 2ndly, the sins we have been struggling with, we find ourselves no longer having time for.

And after spending a hard day feeding the poor, visiting the prisoners, counseling the depressed, delivering people from demons, healing the sick, comforting the bereaved, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, enlightening the deceived, saving the lost, singing to the lonely, blessing the bankrupt, and bringing laughter to the hearts of the sad, if we then feel like sitting down and drinking a beer and talking shop with God and our fellow servants about it--well, at least for me--I have a hard time finding enough fault in it to condemn me.
 
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