Is it Wrong to Call Calvinism Unjust?

[Mark Quayle]

I can prove that wrong with Romans 2:4-5


“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Is God granting these people grace?

You mean salvific grace? He is most certainly gracious to them! Remember, the condemnation applies to absolutely everyone, unless Christ provides the atonement for their sin. Salvific Grace is by God's election, according to his own counsel, not by waiting for us to allow him to do anything. HE regenerates us, at his timing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Why is foreknowledge eliminated by this reasoning?

You have God merely wanting, hoping that something will happen, not sure.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You mean salvific grace? He is most certainly gracious to them! Remember, the condemnation applies to absolutely everyone, unless Christ provides the atonement for their sin. Salvific Grace is by God's election, according to his own counsel, not by waiting for us to allow him to do anything. HE regenerates us, at his timing.

So a “salvific grace” is not a grace that leads someone to repentance? That whole evanescent grace idea is a doctrinal band aide to patch the holes in Calvin’s theology. To even suggest that God would for some strange reason grant someone some sort of imposter grace is ridiculous. What possible reason would He have for granting someone He has no intention of saving this kind of worthless grace?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You mean salvific grace? He is most certainly gracious to them! Remember, the condemnation applies to absolutely everyone, unless Christ provides the atonement for their sin. Salvific Grace is by God's election, according to his own counsel, not by waiting for us to allow him to do anything. HE regenerates us, at his timing.

The passage says that His kindness and patience is leading them to repentance. Only a genuine grace can lead someone to repentance. To suggest that this is not a saving grace suggests that His kindness and patience is not truly leading them to repentance.

 

[Mark Quayle]

So a “salvific grace” is not a grace that leads someone to repentance? That whole evanescent grace idea is a doctrinal band aide to patch the holes in Calvin’s theology. To even suggest that God would for some strange reason grant someone some sort of imposter grace is ridiculous. What possible reason would He have for granting someone He has no intention of saving this kind of worthless grace?

If the repentance is genuine, i.e. of the power of the Spirit of God, it certainly is salvific grace.

Is your "imposter grace" where Christ died for absolutely everyone, actually paying for their sins, yet some having to pay for their own anyway? No, I am talking about common grace: One example is given in Romans 1, where God has shown enough about himself so that nobody has any excuse. What is worthless about such a thing? I should think a little self-examination should temper your rant. For myself, I've had enough of this. We've been through it too many times before. I'm done. Go with God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If the repentance is genuine, i.e. of the power of the Spirit of God, it certainly is salvific grace.

Is your "imposter grace" where Christ died for absolutely everyone, actually paying for their sins, yet some having to pay for their own anyway? No, I am talking about common grace: One example is given in Romans 1, where God has shown enough about himself so that nobody has any excuse. What is worthless about such a thing? I should think a little self-examination should temper your rant. For myself, I've had enough of this. We've been through it too many times before. I'm done. Go with God.

Again your ignoring the fact that Paul said that God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance. By saying that it is not a salvific grace your saying that He is not leading them to repentance. Your saying that if God was leading them to repentance they would repent but the scriptures specifically say that He was and they didn’t.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your condescension notwithstanding

How is a complement "condescension"? You do seem to be trying hard to defend your position. Unless I have misjudged.

the OT references are referring to the natural man, atheists at heart, yes, all of us, apart from the work of God.

They are referring to the various ways man sins.

You have not shown how the natural man, at enmity with God, will seek God.

I did. You missed it. Cornelius. Read Acts 10 and show me any verse that indicates that Cornelius only sought God AFTER God changed him.

Here you go again with the choice thing, neglecting AGAIN that Reformed Doctrine does not deny choice.

Yes it does. It claims that man cannot believe until God changes him so he WILL choose to believe.

HOW --again-- is it possible for those Scripture says will "not submit to to God's law --indeed they cannot", and "cannot please God", and are dead in sin, unable to understand, at enmity with God, slaves to sin, to somehow of their own virtue and integrity be able to turn to God?

The "not submitting to God's law" is a choice. The rest are results of the first.

Until you can show me that, I see no reason to continue with this. Good day.

One more time about election.

The example are angels.

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Angels are elected to serve. Very clear.

And every example I gave you shows the same thing.

And, you have still NOT provided any verse that shows salvation is by election or that God elects people to salvation.

You have no support in Scripture for your view of election.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We would all take up residence in the Lake of Fire. Or do you suppose some of us deserve grace?

Really, "some of us"? Aren't you aware of Titus 2:11?

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

God's grace has appeared to all people offering salvation.

Grace offers salvation to everyone. That is not calvinism.

 

[renniks]

I'm not asking to whom he offered it. I'm asking to whom it was given.

It's given to whoever will accept it. In Calvinism, it's absurd to say it's offered to all if he's irresistibly keeping most from responding.

 

[Brightfame52]

[QUOTE="FreeGrace2, post: 75917375, member: 319176" ]Of course. I have verses that refute TULIP. You have no verses that support TULIP.

Why should you be taken seriously?[/QUOTE]

I dont !

 

[Brightfame52]

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

What we actually read is that people in the flesh cannot please God.

Neither verse man can't repent. In fact, the word 'repent' isn't in either verse.

This is why you can't defend your view. You don't read the verses correctly.

Do you want to know what DOES please God?

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So you see, what pleases God is faith. And those who believe, God is pleased to save.

Very simple.[/QUOTE]
Thats wy dont take you serious, nothing you said here changes the fact that no one in the flesh can please God with Faith. They cant as much as submit/obey God Rom 8:7-8

 

[FreeGrace2]

[QUOTE="FreeGrace2, post: 75917375, member: 319176" ]Of course. I have verses that refute TULIP. You have no verses that support TULIP.

Why should you be taken seriously?

I dont ![/QUOTE]
So you don't take yourself seriously. Good to know.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes and Paul continued on to say this in the same chapter.

“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20-23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God’s plan is that creation would be set free from it’s slavery to corruption so that He may have mercy on all.

“For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:30-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God cannot show mercy to all if He has only bestowed grace to some. This is why the scriptures repeatedly state that Christ died for all, all men, the world, the whole world, everyone. There’s at least 5 passages that use each of these words indicating that Christ died for everyone, not just for an elect group and they are each worded differently so that no mistake can be made.


“For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:14-15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-6‬ ‭NASB1995

I don’t know how many times or how many different ways the scriptures have to say that Christ died for all for people to get the point. It’s not as if it’s only written once or twice it’s written over and over and even worded in different ways making it impossible to misunderstand. Those who persist in saying that all doesn’t mean all, all men doesn’t mean all men, everyone doesn’t mean everyone, creation doesn’t mean creation, the world doesn’t mean the world, the whole world doesn’t mean the whole world, apparently just can’t accept what is plainly written in the scriptures. To say anything different is to contradict of what is plainly written over and over throughout the scriptures.

Again, you havent said anything to overturn:

Man in the flesh cant repent, cant please God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Brightfame52]

I dont !

So you don't take yourself seriously. Good to know.[/QUOTE]
I dont take you serious, you haven't given me a reason to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What we actually read is that people in the flesh cannot please God.

OK. But the Bible also tells us HOW to please God.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

It takes FAITH to please God. Notice what the verse does not say: that God provides the faith. Rom 10:10 says that faith comes from our heart. Not from God.

Neither verse man can't repent. In fact, the word 'repent' isn't in either verse.

Why then, does the Bible tell us that men REFUSE to repent? Rev 16:9,11

To refuse something is a choice. A free will choice.

This is why you can't defend your view.

I just did.

You don't read the verses correctly.

No, that describes yourself.

Do you want to know what DOES please God?

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So you see, what pleases God is faith. And those who believe, God is pleased to save.

Exactly !!

Very simple.

Of course.

Thats wy dont take you serious, nothing you said here changes the fact that no one in the flesh can please God with Faith.

And I agreed with that. But what you fail to grasp is that man CAN believe, which pleases God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I dont take you serious, you haven't given me a reason to.

Then open your eyes to the truth. I've given you plenty of reasons.

But you are FREE to reject whatever you want.

 

[Mark Quayle]

They are referring to the various ways man sins.

First you said they were concerning atheists. I agreed that they are atheists, the natural man that claims "no God". Are you updating your claim?

I did. You missed it. Cornelius. Read Acts 10 and show me any verse that indicates that Cornelius only sought God AFTER God changed him.

I didn't miss it at all. What is the problem here. Are you saying it should have said in the immediate context, as part of the narrative, that God enabled him to seek God? Why must it?

Yes it does. It claims that man cannot believe until God changes him so he WILL choose to believe.

I'm sorry for being dense, but how does the fact that God must change a man to enable him to believe, contradict the will, and choice? It is only a statement that man's will is contrary to God until God changes the will. We always choose as we will.

The "not submitting to God's law" is a choice. The rest are results of the first.

Agreed. So how does such, of his own virtue and integrity, choose God?

One more time about election.

The example are angels.

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Angels are elected to serve. Very clear.

And every example I gave you shows the same thing.

And, you have still NOT provided any verse that shows salvation is by election or that God elects people to salvation.

You have no support in Scripture for your view of election.

How does the example you show deny Election of believers to salvation? These are indeed elected to serve, and they do precisely as God chose for them to do. Likewise, with the saved and the reprobate. We always choose according to God's plan for us. Precisely. What is the problem?

I have shown by Scripture and I have shown by reason, that God chooses, and man always chooses accordingly, either by rebellion or obedience.

You have no support in Scripture for your view of election.

 

[Brightfame52]

OK. But the Bible also tells us HOW to please God.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

It takes FAITH to please God. Notice what the verse does not say: that God provides the faith. Rom 10:10 says that faith comes from our heart. Not from God.


Why then, does the Bible tell us that men REFUSE to repent? Rev 16:9,11

To refuse something is a choice. A free will choice.


I just did.


No, that describes yourself.


Exactly !!


Of course.


And I agreed with that. But what you fail to grasp is that man CAN believe, which pleases God.

In the flesh you cant lease God ! So God doesnt tell you how to please Him if you n the flesh, He said you cant !

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again, you havent said anything to overturn:

Man in the flesh cant repent, cant please God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

No I haven’t, but what I did do is provide evidence that all creation has received God’s grace. I don’t refute the fact that without God’s grace we cannot repent and come to Christ. That’s absolutely biblical. My position is that God will grant grace to everyone enabling them to repent and be saved, only not all will accept His offer.

What do you think Paul meant when he said...

“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20-21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[FreeGrace2]

First you said they were concerning atheists.

I never said all 6 quotes were about atheists. Just the first quote. But ALL 6 quotes are examples of the various ways people sin.

Are you guilty of ALL of the quotes?

I agreed that they are atheists, the natural man that claims "no God". Are you updating your claim?

No, but I am clarifying, since you obviously didn't understand what I wrote.

It isn't the "natural man" who claims no God, but atheists. Didn't you read Psa 14:1-3 or 53:1-3?

And you need to address Cornelius in Acts 10, who, as an unsaved person (Acts 11:14) prayed to God and gave alms.

I didn't miss it at all. What is the problem here. Are you saying it should have said in the immediate context, as part of the narrative, that God enabled him to seek God? Why must it?[/QUOTE]
iow, you are simply ASSUMING that God enabled him to seek God. It doesn't say so, so you have to speculate, to keep your theology intact.

I'm sorry for being dense, but how does the fact that God must change a man to enable him to believe, contradict the will, and choice?

You fail to understand "will". If man's will is free, then God doesn't "change his will". If God has to change his will, so he will believe, then man ISN'T free and merely a robot or puppet.

It is only a statement that man's will is contrary to God until God changes the will. We always choose as we will.

Your talking point fails to explain Cornelius. So you have to assume, presume, and speculate to get to your theology.

I said:
The "not submitting to God's law" is a choice. The rest are results of the first.

Agreed. So how does such, of his own virtue and integrity, choose God?

If you really did agree, then you should understand that man is also able to choose to submit to God.

And your question is simply a false issue. This isn't about virtue/integrity. It's about "taking God at His word". That's what faith is.

It appears you don't really understand heb 11:6.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

First, it is faith that pleases God. So if God MUST change a person so that they will have faith, or He MUST give the faith to a person, they are merely a passive programmed robot or puppet with strings that are being pulled.

Second, note the words: "anyone who COMES TO GOD". So, how do that do that?

Third, they
1. MUST BELIEVE THAT HE EXISTS
2. THAT HE REWARDS THOSE WHO SEEK HIM

So, iow, believing that God exists and that He rewards those who seek Him is FAITH. Which pleases God.

How does the example you show deny Election of believers to salvation?

Can you show any verse that speaks of saved angels? Of course not. That's not even on the table. That example with Heb 1:14 proves that election is for service.

These are indeed elected to serve, and they do precisely as God chose for them to do. Likewise, with the saved and the reprobate. We always choose according to God's plan for us. Precisely. What is the problem?

First, the claim that God elects to salvation, when there are NO such verses that indicate that. None whatsoever.

Second, that God MUST change the person so they will believe. Again, NO such verses that indicate that.

I have shown by Scripture and I have shown by reason, that God chooses, and man always chooses accordingly, either by rebellion or obedience.

Huh? Are you suggesting that God chooses people to be rebellious???

You have no support in Scripture for your view of election.

Said the man who has NO verses that teach one is elected to salvation.

I've given you 7 examples of people described as elect, and NONE of them mentioned anything about salvation. All were obviously for service.