Is it Wrong to Call Calvinism Unjust?

[Brightfame52]

Total depravity isn’t the problem, it’s your understanding of grace and how it coincides with God’s expectations. God cannot justly punish people for failing to meet impossible expectations. He has provided them grace enabling them to repent and it is thru their own stubbornness that they refuse. They don’t refuse because they are incapable they refuse because they choose not to repent even despite God enabling them to. God has granted grace to everyone which is why Christ died to pay for the sins of everyone. God made the opportunity available to everyone.

Man in the flesh cant repent, cant please God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[HosannaHM]

I said:
What verse says God chooses who will believe?
What verse says God elects to salvation?
What verse says Christ died ONLY for the elect?
What verse says that grace is irresistible?
What verse says that all believers will persevere in the faith?

You have none.


Who will take you seriously, when you have no verses that support TULIP?

No one.

No verses support TULIP? Please. Is that you Leighton Flowers?

Acts 13:48....

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you think I should take you serious ?

Of course. I have verses that refute TULIP. You have no verses that support TULIP.

Why should you be taken seriously?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Man in the flesh cant repent, cant please God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.[/QUOTE]
What we actually read is that people in the flesh cannot please God.

Neither verse man can't repent. In fact, the word 'repent' isn't in either verse.

This is why you can't defend your view. You don't read the verses correctly.

Do you want to know what DOES please God?

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So you see, what pleases God is faith. And those who believe, God is pleased to save.

Very simple.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No verses support TULIP? Please. Is that you Leighton Flowers?

Don't know what that is? Do you?

Acts 13:48....

Ah, yes. Good old Acts 13:48.

So, shall we? let's do.

English Standard Version
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

The Greek word translated "appointed" (sometimes 'ordained') is:
τεταγμένοι (tetagmenoi)

The root word is "tasso". It is a perfect participle MIDDLE VOICE.

tassó: to draw up in order, arrange
Original Word: τάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tas'-so)
Definition: to draw up in order, arrange
Usage: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.

Let's consider some context, just for fun.

42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord

These verses indicate the interest "the people" had in hearing more from Paul.

45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

Because of the strong interest in what Paul was preaching, the JEWS were jealous and opposed Paul's message, which was about eternal life. Because Paul then said this to the JEWS:

46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

So Paul contrasted the JEWS with the Gentiles, who came back the next week (nearly the whole city) to hear him again.

Now the clincher: 'tasso' is in the middle voice, which means the Gentiles did it to themselves.

So whether you prefer 'appoint' or 'ordained' or 'lined up for...' or 'arranged themselves', the verse does NOT say that God unconditionally chose anyone for eternal life.

How many verses would you like about what the Bible says about how to have (possess) eternal life?

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Well, I got sort or excited and included the verses on how to be saved.

How many mentioned election, or being chosen for salvation/eternal life? None.

So Acts 13:48 is not a proof text for calvinism.

Now, do YOU have any verses that actually and plainly teach any of the TULIP's petals? Let's see them.

 

[HosannaHM]

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

How many mentioned election, or being chosen for salvation/eternal life? None.

Uh...do I need to use words or will yours suffice?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said: ↑
Here's another, simpler, for those who can only digest one verse at a time:

Total Depravity
There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God.Romans 3:11, NASB

I do agree with this. But it doesn't support the calvinist claim that man cannot believe. And, you you know the context for this quote from the OT. That should clear up your misconception that this verse applies to everyone in the human race.

Actually, Calvinism doesn't claim that man cannot believe. It claims that man cannot believe salvifically, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.

Context:
Romans 3: "9 ....Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”"



Unconditional Election
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”Romans 9:15, NASB

This verse doesn't EVEN mention election. So how can it support UE?

btw, I AGREE that God's election is unconditional. But here's your error. You claim UE, but if that were true, then salvation is NOT by faith, but by election. Have you ever thought of that?

And the Bible is full of verses that cleary articulate that the sole condition for salvation is faith or believing in Christ. How many verses would you like to see?

You can't see God's choice in that verse? You need to hear the word 'election' in it for it to be about election? How many verses are there, then, demonstrating 'free will'?

Huh?? You agree that God's election is unconditional, but when I claim it, (unlike you?), then salvation is not by faith? So when you claim it, it IS by faith, but when I claim it, it is not?

Your logic is flawed, claiming that salvation, which is by faith, cannot be through election. Keep in mind here, it is God who decreed both; he elected, and caused the faith of the Elect. You may as well say that salvation cannot be by grace if it is by faith. Nevertheless, it is not I who said "salvation is by election". It is YOU, who said that if God's election is unconditional (which thing you say you agree with), that salvation is by election.

As for "the 'sole condition' for salvation is faith", again your logic is faulty, supposing that faith is not the work of the Spirit of God. Humanly derived faith that a car is worth buying is hardly even reliable, nevermind faith that overcomes the 'old man' within. I don't know why anyone would trust the faith of a human for salvation.

Limited Atonement
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.”John 10:11, NASB

Glad you quoted this verse. In ch 10, Jesus specifically mentions
1. "the sheep" v.1-3, 7-8, 11-12, 13,15
2. "My sheep" v.3,4,14
3. "Other sheep of Mine" v.16
4. "not of My sheep" v.26

So, there are His sheep, (#2,3, which are saved people), there are those NOT His sheep (unsaved people) and THE sheep, everyone.

So the verse you quoted supports unlimited atonement. Christ laid down His life for THE sheep. If the atonement was for His own sheep, the verse would have said THAT. But it didn't.

Your logic continues in the same flawed vein. Does he lay his life down for the [already] saved? Or is this a reference to atonement? These are the Elect.

By the way, the fact a verse doesn't mention something doesn't mean that that something is therefore not true, nor even that that something isn't demonstrated another way besides saying it outright. You have a strange hermeneutic.


Irresistible Grace
“All that the Father gives me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.John 6:37, NASB

Again, nothing about grace here. And Acts 7:51 actually SAYS the opposite: “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Since the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin, etc, that is grace on God's part.

However, explain the fact that men refuse (a choice) to believe? Acts 14:2, 19:9

Nothing about GRACE??? What is it that the Father should give some to Christ? What is it that they should come to him, contrary to the nature of the mind of flesh? GRACE!!!

And while I don't deny there is a certain kind of call, and offer of salvation, and no, it is not an empty offer --if they would believe, they would be saved, but apart from the work of the Spirit of God in them, they WILL NOT. Yes, CHOICE!

But Irresistable Grace is not about the unsaved, but about God's work by the Spirit within us, who without asking our permission completely changes us from death to life. REGENERATION. He has chosen whom he will GRACIOUSLY do this to, for their own good, so that they will become that for which he made them. This is the only way we will desire Christ, and have valid faith, obedience that is more than mere compliance, repentance that is more than a fit of passion, and so on.

AND NO! Calvinism does not teach that human effort is useless --it DEMANDS IT !!

This isn't perseverance, this is preservation. There is a difference.
Perseverance of the Saints
“And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”John 6:39, NASB
You have not supported any of the 5 points. And I have refuted them with Scripture.

Is it not your thesis that if one does not continue in the faith that he is lost? So it is for Calvinism, too, contrary to the caricature drawn. So the verse fits very well. It is God who works all things.

So I have demonstrated from Scripture, the 5 points, and you have refuted none of them. (After all, if you can assert, so can I).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Total depravity isn’t the problem, it’s your understanding of grace and how it coincides with God’s expectations. God cannot justly punish people for failing to meet impossible expectations. He has provided them grace enabling them to repent and it is thru their own stubbornness that they refuse. They don’t refuse because they are incapable they refuse because they choose not to repent even despite God enabling them to. God has granted grace to everyone which is why Christ died to pay for the sins of everyone. God made the opportunity available to everyone.

God can justly do whatever he does. Don't fool yourself that he must meet your notions of justice.

I hope you have not forgotten that Romans 8 says, "5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

How many mentioned election, or being chosen for salvation/eternal life? None.

Uh...do I need to use words or will yours suffice?

First, the word "chosen" in 2 Thess 2:13 isn't the word for "elect/elected/choice" in the election verses. It is "haireomai", instead of "eklegomai".

Second, consider what God has actually chosen. It isn't salvation. It is the method of salvation; that being, THROUGH sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Third, the Greek word "and" is kai, and can be translated as "even", which does fit here.

Salvation isn't a two-step process. As I showed from all the verses about how to obtain salvation or eternal life, it is BY FAITH/BELIEVING ALONE.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Mark Quayle said: ↑
Here's another, simpler, for those who can only digest one verse at a time:

Total Depravity
There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God.Romans 3:11, NASB

Actually, Calvinism doesn't claim that man cannot believe. It claims that man cannot believe salvifically, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.

Context:
Romans 3: "9 ....Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”"

Well, at least you are trying hard. But note the beginning of v.10, "as it is WRITTEN...". Hm. What is Paul referring to? The OT of course.

And v.11 and 12 are found in Psa 14:1-3 and 53:1-3. So, who is the subject in those 2 passages? Hint: atheists.

Paul's statement about both Jew and Gentile alike being "under sin" is now proven by 6 OT quotes. None of which apply to everyone. Paul was giving examples from OT verses about the various ways all men are sinful.

So when v.11 says "no one seeks God", that directly refers to atheists. Cornelius, a Gentile Centurion absolutely did seek God. And was found by Him. Acts 10.

Unconditional Election
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”Romans 9:15, NASB

You can't see God's choice in that verse?

Sure God chooses. But you need to understand what else was written in the OT to fill out the gaps in your understanding.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Now do YOU see who the Lord chooses to have mercy on? The wicked who "forsake their ways and thoughts, who TURN TO THE LORD. That's who.

So now where does CHOICE fall? On the wicked who turn to the Lord. What Isa 55:7 doesn't say is that God causes any wicked to turn to the Lord.

You need to hear the word 'election' in it for it to be about election? How many verses are there, then, demonstrating 'free will'?

OK, let's discuss "Trinity" if you want to play word games. Look. There are m any verses in the NT about election. But NONE of them gives salvation as its purpose. Why is that? Since calvinists claim that God chooses unconditionally to salvation, how come NO verse comes close to saying that. In fact, we have the opposite situation; that salvation/eternal life are obtained through faith/believing, not election.

And NO verse says that God causes faith.

Huh?? You agree that God's election is unconditional, but when I claim it, (unlike you?), then salvation is not by faith?

Because we don't agree on WHAT election is to. That's why. God elects to service. And He elects ALL believers. The "us" in Eph 1:4 refers to all believers, as proven by v.19 where Paul defines who the "us" are. "us who believe". That's pretty clear.

So when you claim it, it IS by faith, but when I claim it, it is not?

When calvinists hear "election" they think "salvation". Instead, they should be thinking "service".

Your logic is flawed, claiming that salvation, which is by faith, cannot be through election.

Then WHY are there NO verses that link election to salvation? And if it were true, then salvation would be by election, not faith. So you have a problem either way.

But the Bible is clear. In all the examples of people described as "elect", none are for salvation, and all of them are for service.

Even the unbeliever Judas was chosen for service.

John 6:70-71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Consider this passage on election:

1 Cor 1:26-28
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
29 so that no one may boast before him.

If you don't see service in these verses about election, you are intentionally not looking. The red words refer to what God chose/elected. The blue words are the purpose for those He chose/elected, which is service.

If you choose to respond, please address these verses.

Keep in mind here, it is God who decreed both; he elected, and caused the faith of the Elect.

Wrong on both counts. Please share any verse that says God causes the faith of the elect. I challenge you to.

You may as well say that salvation cannot be by grace if it is by faith.

Well, those totally ignorant of Scripture might say that, but Eph 2:8 destroys that silliness. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. If your theory were true, Paul would have written "we are saved by grace THROUGH ELECTION".

Nevertheless, it is not I who said "salvation is by election". It is YOU, who said that if God's election is unconditional (which thing you say you agree with), that salvation is by election.

Unfortunately you keep missing the point. Unconditional election is to service.

As for "the 'sole condition' for salvation is faith", again your logic is faulty, supposing that faith is not the work of the Spirit of God. Humanly derived faith that a car is worth buying is hardly even reliable, nevermind faith that overcomes the 'old man' within. I don't know why anyone would trust the faith of a human for salvation.

Your logic is quite fuzzy here. The Bible itself tells us where salvation faith comes from; the heart. Rom 10:10. And Paul wasn't talking about faith in a car or any other object.

Limited Atonement
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.”John 10:11, NASB

Your logic continues in the same flawed vein. Does he lay his life down for the [already] saved? Or is this a reference to atonement? These are the Elect.

Once again, you are misreading the entire chapter of John 10.

Jesus mentions several kinds of sheep:

1. His sheep v.3,4,14
2. other sheep of His v.16
3. those not His sheep v.26
4. THE sheep v.1-3,7,8,11,12,13,15

#1 are saved Jews
#2 are saved Gentiles
#3 are unsaved Jews
#4 represent ALL the sheep, or everyone.

That's who Christ died for. Verses that say exactly that:

John 1:29, 4:42
2 Cor 5:14,15
1 Tim 4:10
Heb 2:9
1 John 2:2, 4:14

Before you fire off an argument that "all" doesn't always mean "everyone", I agree. And in all of the verses above, there is NO CONTEXT for "all" being anything less than everyone.

By the way, the fact a verse doesn't mention something doesn't mean that that something is therefore not true, nor even that that something isn't demonstrated another way besides saying it outright. You have a strange hermeneutic.

OK, so show me verses that clearly teach the principles of TULIP.

Irresistible Grace
“All that the Father gives me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.John 6:37, NASB

Read 6:44 AND 45 together. v.45 clearly says who will come to Jesus. Those who have listened and learned from the Father, who teaches everyone.

Nothing about GRACE???

It's ALL about grace. Eph 2:8, remember?

What is it that the Father should give some to Christ? What is it that they should come to him, contrary to the nature of the mind of flesh? GRACE!!!

v.45 shows God's grace in that He has taught everyone. So no one has any excuse.

And while I don't deny there is a certain kind of call, and offer of salvation, and no, it is not an empty offer --if they would believe, they would be saved, but apart from the work of the Spirit of God in them, they WILL NOT. Yes, CHOICE!

Yes, the choice is on man. God has revealed Himself and His divine power and attributes through creation so that no one has an excuse not to recognize Him as Creator and be thankful to Him. Rom 1:19-21.

But Irresistable Grace is not about the unsaved, but about God's work by the Spirit within us, who without asking our permission completely changes us from death to life. REGENERATION.

I agree. When a person puts their trust in God's promise of salvation for those who believe in His Son (John 6:40), God chooses to regenerate them. John 1:13 clearly teaches that regeneration (being born again) isn't something that man chooses or wills, but is by God Himself.

He has chosen whom he will GRACIOUSLY do this to, for their own good, so that they will become that for which he made them.

Calvinist talking point. Not Scripture.

This is the only way we will desire Christ, and have valid faith, obedience that is more than mere compliance, repentance that is more than a fit of passion, and so on.

More calvinist talking points.

AND NO! Calvinism does not teach that human effort is useless --it DEMANDS IT !!

Huh?? Please explain this.

Is it not your thesis that if one does not continue in the faith that he is lost?

Absolutely NOT!! Jesus said in John 5:24 that those believing (present tense) HAVE (as in currently possess) eternal life, and shall not die.

Then in ch 10:28 Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

So, from the moment one believes, they possess eternal life. And on that basis, they shall never die.

But many calvinsts seem to believe that a person who has believed and then falls into sin, or ceases to believe (second soil) didn't really believe and therefore never had salvation. I reject that outright. Jesus refuted that idea in Luke 8:12-13.

So I have demonstrated from Scripture, the 5 points, and you have refuted none of them. (After all, if you can assert, so can I).

Sure, you are free (your choice) to assert whatever you want to assert. Your problem is that you didn't support any part of TULIP from Scripture.

iow, you gave no verses that say what TULIP's points claim. As I have shown above.

Again, the problem is that when you hear "election" you immediately think "salvation", when you SHOULD BE hearing "service".

That's the root of the problem.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well, at least you are trying hard. But note the beginning of v.10, "as it is WRITTEN...". Hm. What is Paul referring to? The OT of course.

And v.11 and 12 are found in Psa 14:1-3 and 53:1-3. So, who is the subject in those 2 passages? Hint: atheists.

Paul's statement about both Jew and Gentile alike being "under sin" is now proven by 6 OT quotes. None of which apply to everyone. Paul was giving examples from OT verses about the various ways all men are sinful.

So when v.11 says "no one seeks God", that directly refers to atheists. Cornelius, a Gentile Centurion absolutely did seek God. And was found by Him. Acts 10.

Your condescension notwithstanding, the OT references are referring to the natural man, atheists at heart, yes, all of us, apart from the work of God.

You have not shown how the natural man, at enmity with God, will seek God.

Sure God chooses. But you need to understand what else was written in the OT to fill out the gaps in your understanding.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Now do YOU see who the Lord chooses to have mercy on? The wicked who "forsake their ways and thoughts, who TURN TO THE LORD. That's who.

So now where does CHOICE fall? On the wicked who turn to the Lord. What Isa 55:7 doesn't say is that God causes any wicked to turn to the Lord.

Here you go again with the choice thing, neglecting AGAIN that Reformed Doctrine does not deny choice. HOW --again-- is it possible for those Scripture says will "not submit to to God's law --indeed they cannot", and "cannot please God", and are dead in sin, unable to understand, at enmity with God, slaves to sin, to somehow of their own virtue and integrity be able to turn to God?

Until you can show me that, I see no reason to continue with this. Good day.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Man in the flesh cant repent, cant please God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Yes and Paul continued on to say this in the same chapter.

“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20-23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God’s plan is that creation would be set free from it’s slavery to corruption so that He may have mercy on all.

“For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:30-32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God cannot show mercy to all if He has only bestowed grace to some. This is why the scriptures repeatedly state that Christ died for all, all men, the world, the whole world, everyone. There’s at least 5 passages that use each of these words indicating that Christ died for everyone, not just for an elect group and they are each worded differently so that no mistake can be made.


“For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:14-15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-6‬ ‭NASB1995

I don’t know how many times or how many different ways the scriptures have to say that Christ died for all for people to get the point. It’s not as if it’s only written once or twice it’s written over and over and even worded in different ways making it impossible to misunderstand. Those who persist in saying that all doesn’t mean all, all men doesn’t mean all men, everyone doesn’t mean everyone, creation doesn’t mean creation, the world doesn’t mean the world, the whole world doesn’t mean the whole world, apparently just can’t accept what is plainly written in the scriptures. To say anything different is to contradict of what is plainly written over and over throughout the scriptures.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God can justly do whatever he does. Don't fool yourself that he must meet your notions of justice.

I hope you have not forgotten that Romans 8 says, "5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

Ok keep reading on to verses 20-21


“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20-21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Mark Quayle]

God’s plan is that creation would be set free from it’s slavery to corruption so that He may have mercy on all.

So God's plan is not going to work out?

 

[BNR32FAN]

God can justly do whatever he does. Don't fool yourself that he must meet your notions of justice.

I hope you have not forgotten that Romans 8 says, "5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

You need to learn the definition of the word just. It means fair and impartial.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ok keep reading on to verses 20-21


“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20-21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

What is that hope --universal salvation? "Death is swallowed up in victory" doesn't apply favorably to every individual that ever lived --or are you a universalist?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So God's plan is not going to work out?

No His plan has worked out exactly as He intended.

Here read it again and this time pay close attention to the bold words.


“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20-21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Who is hoping here?

 

[Mark Quayle]

You need to learn the definition of the word just. It means fair and impartial.

Here we go again. You would have God give us what is fair and impartial? We would all take up residence in the Lake of Fire. Or do you suppose some of us deserve grace?

 

[Mark Quayle]

No His plan has worked out exactly as He intended.

Here read it again and this time pay close attention to the bold words.


“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:20-21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Who is hoping here?

So to your thinking, God didn't KNOW??? He only hopes? Take a closer look at the word translated 'HOPE'. Hint: I 'expect' you are not a universalist, but I'm beginning to wonder.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What is that hope --universal salvation? "Death is swallowed up in victory" doesn't apply favorably to every individual that ever lived --or are you a universalist?

Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God Matthew 7:21

No I’m not a universalist. Just because Christ died for all doesn’t mean that everyone has a free ticket to heaven, it means He has earned the right to choose who He will allow to enter and who He will deny.