Is it sinful to have a Homosexual Orientation?

[rjs330]

Shifting the burden of proof. The claim is that there is actual research based evidence but so far....we haven't seen any

The thing we know is that there is no homosexual Gene. Therefore there is another reason for a.person to be homosexual. The Bible tells us that all sin is a spiritual problem. It tells us we are all sinners. No one is righteous. Since homosexual acts are sin (no worse than lying, stealing, drunkenness etc) it is a spiritual problem. We can ask why a person commits the sin of homosexuality just as we can ask why a person becomes a liar or an adulterer. There are always reasons for sin. Primarily because we are sinners at heart, but also our experiences can push us one way or another. We hear it all the time. People say that crime in the inner cities is due to people being poor and being driven to commit theft because of circumstances of their life. People may be driven to alcohism due to the death of a child. So homosexuality is no different. Since it's not a specific Gene it's something else.

 

[Quartermaine]

The thing we know is that there is no homosexual Gene.

Why would anyone think that something as complex as sexual orientation would be dependent on just a single gene?

Therefore there is another reason for a.person to be homosexual. The Bible tells us that all sin is a spiritual problem. It tells us we are all sinners. No one is righteous. Since homosexual acts are sin (no worse than lying, stealing, drunkenness etc) it is a spiritual problem. We can ask why a person commits the sin of homosexuality just as we can ask why a person becomes a liar or an adulterer. There are always reasons for sin.

we can ask why a person feels the need to dehumanize an entire minority

Primarily because we are sinners at heart, but also our experiences can push us one way or another. We hear it all the time. People say that crime in the inner cities is due to people being poor and being driven to commit theft because of circumstances of their life. People may be driven to alcohism due to the death of a child. So homosexuality is no different. Since it's not a specific Gene it's something else.

or, more likely, your original premise is wrong.

 

[rjs330]

Why would anyone think that something as complex as sexual orientation would be dependent on just a single gene?

we can ask why a person feels the need to dehumanize an entire minority

or, more likely, your original premise is wrong.

Sexual orientation is not complex. We are born male and female. Biology determines that. It's natural law. Why you may be attracted to the same sex is matter of life experiences. And that can be complex. But regardless of the reasons the matter is a spiritual one because the God said it is. Homosexuality is sin and all sin is a spiritual problem.
A Christian that commits adultery has a spiritual problem. Sin is always spiritual.

That's why we need a savior. All have sinned. None are righteous. But it's by the blood and power of Christ that we are made righteous and he gives us power to overcome sin.

 

[Quartermaine]

Sexual orientation is not complex.

It's incredibly complex. our orientation is responsible for our romantic and emotional relationships across a lifetime. It's who we find attractive and who we do not. It determines our sexual activities and desires and the pair bonding we experience in long term relationships and our sense of love. it is a foundation principal of our identity.

We are born male and female. Biology determines that.

that is gender and has nothing to do with orientation.

It's natural law.

what do you think natural law is?

Why you may be attracted to the same sex is matter of life experiences. And that can be complex. But regardless of the reasons the matter is a spiritual one because the God said it is. Homosexuality is sin and all sin is a spiritual problem.
A Christian that commits adultery has a spiritual problem. Sin is always spiritual.

That's why we need a savior. All have sinned. None are righteous. But it's by the blood and power of Christ that we are made righteous and he gives us power to overcome sin.

there is absolutely no evidence that any life experience has any effect on sexual orientation.

 

[creslaw]

It is a combination of factors: spiritual, environmental, chemical and psychological. In other words, it is the result of sin.

It seems strange that in a Christian Forum, where people are presumably familiar with the Bible, that someone cannot understand the spiritual dimension of sin. We are all born with a predisposition to sin, some in one direction more than others.

I agree with your combination of factors because all psychological groups accept the contribution of environmental and biological influences on same sex attraction.

 

[rjs330]

It's incredibly complex. our orientation is responsible for our romantic and emotional relationships across a lifetime. It's who we find attractive and who we do not. It determines our sexual activities and desires and the pair bonding we experience in long term relationships and our sense of love. it is a foundation principal of our identity.


that is gender and has nothing to do with orientation.

what do you think natural law is?

there is absolutely no evidence that any life experience has any effect on sexual orientation.

Orientation is not complex when it comes to a natural inclination towards the opposite or same sex. There may be some natural predisposition towards homosexuality such as there may be a natural predisposition towards being an alcoholic. But that doesn't mean that one IS a homosexual or an alcoholic. Life experiences then combine to cause one to move in the homosexual direction. And those experiences may be complex. But people are not born gay. There is no gay genetics.

 

[Quartermaine]

Orientation is not complex when it comes to a natural inclination towards the opposite or same sex. There may be some natural predisposition towards homosexuality such as there may be a natural predisposition towards being an alcoholic. But that doesn't mean that one IS a homosexual or an alcoholic. Life experiences then combine to cause one to move in the homosexual direction. And those experiences may be complex. But people are not born gay. There is no gay genetics.

what a ugly analogy and an analogy completely wrong

Alcoholism is nothing like homosexuality and the only reason to make such a comparison is to dehumanize homosexuals and to perpetuate the fantasy of illness as homosexuality. if one pretends that gays are like alcoholics then one gets to paint gays as not just diseased but dangerous helping to justify all sorts of prejudice and discrimination and lay the foundations for "treatment", imprisonment and far worse things.

To become an alcoholic on must consume alcohol to the point of inebriation multiple times. The large repeated over use of alcohol makes changes in the dopamine receptors in one's brain leading eventually to alcoholism

Sexual orientation part of you without ever having sex. Meaning you are gay or straight or bi even when you are a virgin.

As for life experiences causing homosexuality. There is not one shred of evidence to support this.

 

[creslaw]

Orientation is not complex when it comes to a natural inclination towards the opposite or same sex. There may be some natural predisposition towards homosexuality such as there may be a natural predisposition towards being an alcoholic. But that doesn't mean that one IS a homosexual or an alcoholic. Life experiences then combine to cause one to move in the homosexual direction. And those experiences may be complex. But people are not born gay. There is no gay genetics.

[underlining mine]
You make a very astute point particularly for the person whose primary identification is in their relationship with Jesus Christ. In support groups I've had experience with, people identify themselves as Christians who experience same sex attraction - because they believe in the sanctity of the Scriptures, they see same sex attraction as a disorder. They never identify themselves as a homosexual or gay.

Studies of identical twins reared separately show that there is a significant environmental factor (life experiences) in the emergence of same sex attraction. There is very strong pressure from gay activists to claim that homosexuality is entirely biological to strengthen the claim it is natural rather than an aberration ... and sinful in practice.

 

[Quartermaine]

[underlining mine]
You make a very astute point particularly for the person whose primary identification is in their relationship with Jesus Christ. In support groups I've had experience with, people identify themselves as Christians who experience same sex attraction - because they believe in the sanctity of the Scriptures, they see same sex attraction as a disorder. They never identify themselves as a homosexual or gay.

i feel very sorry for such people. can you imagine the years of abuse they would have had to live through to disassociate to such a degree

Studies of identical twins reared separately show that there is a significant environmental factor (life experiences) in the emergence of same sex attraction.

I've never seen such a study. Would you please cite these studies?

There is very strong pressure from gay activists to claim that homosexuality is entirely biological to strengthen the claim it is natural rather than an aberration ... and sinful in practice.

There is very strong pressure from anti-gay groups to deny that homosexuality is biological to help distance their position for racism and to help dehumanize homosexuals.

 

[creslaw]

i feel very sorry for such people. can you imagine the years of abuse they would have had to live through to disassociate to such a degree

That is the gay activist argument, it is not the position of a person who has had a life transforming encounter with Jesus Christ.

I've never seen such a study. Would you please cite these studies?

Well, that helps me to understand your flawed position. Just google it friend and you will find that less than half of homosexual orientation can be attributed to biological factors. When one identical twin is homosexual it is more likely the other twin will not be homosexual. [Bailey, Dunne & Martin]
You should also look into spontaneous change in sexual feelings (orientation) which refutes the exclusive "born that way" position.

There is very strong pressure from anti-gay groups to deny that homosexuality is biological to help distance their position for racism and to help dehumanize homosexuals.

That is wrong on several levels. Most people recognize biological as well as environmental factors ... not unlike obesity. Even the APA accepts the nature & nurture explanation.
None of the high profile court cases (such as Barronelle Stutzman) show any attempt to "dehumanize homosexuals" as you claim ... they have all welcomed homosexual customers, some for many years.

 

[creslaw]

The complicity of gay activists in the high incidence of depression & suicide among homosexual youth needs to be exposed. By spuriously labelling as hatred all viewpoints that do not align with LGBT ideology, young people are constantly being told by gay activists that they are hated by conservative Christians & others.

When the traditional Biblical view is attacked as hate speech, it has an impact on those who are dealing with homosexuality, increasing their feelings of alienation and being hated. And whenever a business that declines service for a same sex wedding (even when they have welcomed gay customers for years) is accused of being motivated by hatred, again the impact on homosexual youth is to exacerbate personal distress. This added pressure on adolescents with same sex attraction helps to drive them deeper into negativity, sometimes with fatal consequences.

The situation is made worse when those with unwanted same sex attraction express a wish to be able to pursue their goals of marriage & children, and they are told there is no hope for any change. This gives rise to a sense of hopelessness which is a precursor to anxiety, depression and sometimes self harm. When this comes from secular groups it is very damaging, but when it is supported by those calling themselves Christians, those who should believe in the the power of Jesus Christ to transform a person's life, it is immoral.

If gay activists really cared about homosexual youth, rather than trying to enhance their social & political power, they would accurately represent the attitude of those who cannot accept that homosexual behaviour is compatible with the teachings of Scripture. That attitude is perfectly expressed by Jesus’ interaction with the woman caught in adultery when He said “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more” (John 8:11). Jesus could not condone the woman’s behaviour, but nor did He express any negative feelings towards her as a person.

 

[rjs330]

what a ugly analogy and an analogy completely wrong

Alcoholism is nothing like homosexuality and the only reason to make such a comparison is to dehumanize homosexuals and to perpetuate the fantasy of illness as homosexuality. if one pretends that gays are like alcoholics then one gets to paint gays as not just diseased but dangerous helping to justify all sorts of prejudice and discrimination and lay the foundations for "treatment", imprisonment and far worse things.

To become an alcoholic on must consume alcohol to the point of inebriation multiple times. The large repeated over use of alcohol makes changes in the dopamine receptors in one's brain leading eventually to alcoholism

Sexual orientation part of you without ever having sex. Meaning you are gay or straight or bi even when you are a virgin.

As for life experiences causing homosexuality. There is not one shred of evidence to support this.

To become a homosexual you must have some experiences in life, which may not even be your own fault or your own choices. You are NOT a homosexual from birth. You may have a predisposition towards that if you encounter the right circumstances, but you are not born as a homosexual.

And there are some studies that show that life experiences do have an influence on one as a homosexual.

 

[Quartermaine]

That is the gay activist argument, it is not the position of a person who has had a life transforming encounter with Jesus Christ.

its not a posiiotn i actively feel sorry for such individuals. And having worked professionally with many who have escaped the "ex-gay" life i can only shudder when thinking of the living hell these people endured for years

Well, that helps me to understand your flawed position. Just google it friend and you will find that less than half of homosexual orientation can be attributed to biological factors.

I am well versed in finding scholarly and research papers. My position is that you said there were "Studies of identical twins reared separately show that there is a significant environmental factor" Yet i have never heard anything about such a study. That is why I asked you for a refernce

When one identical twin is homosexual it is more likely the other twin will not be homosexual. [Bailey, Dunne & Martin]

yes orientation has a high concordance factor

You should also look into spontaneous change in sexual feelings (orientation) which refutes the exclusive "born that way" position.

reference please as what I am finding seems to be the exact opposite of what you claim

 

[Quartermaine]

The complicity of gay activists in the high incidence of depression & suicide among homosexual youth needs to be exposed. By spuriously labelling as hatred all viewpoints that do not align with LGBT ideology, young people are constantly being told by gay activists that they are hated by conservative Christians & others.

When the traditional Biblical view is attacked as hate speech, it has an impact on those who are dealing with homosexuality, increasing their feelings of alienation and being hated. And whenever a business that declines service for a same sex wedding (even when they have welcomed gay customers for years) is accused of being motivated by hatred, again the impact on homosexual youth is to exacerbate personal distress. This added pressure on adolescents with same sex attraction helps to drive them deeper into negativity, sometimes with fatal consequences.

The situation is made worse when those with unwanted same sex attraction express a wish to be able to pursue their goals of marriage & children, and they are told there is no hope for any change. This gives rise to a sense of hopelessness which is a precursor to anxiety, depression and sometimes self harm. When this comes from secular groups it is very damaging, but when it is supported by those calling themselves Christians, those who should believe in the the power of Jesus Christ to transform a person's life, it is immoral.

If gay activists really cared about homosexual youth, rather than trying to enhance their social & political power, they would accurately represent the attitude of those who cannot accept that homosexual behaviour is compatible with the teachings of Scripture. That attitude is perfectly expressed by Jesus’ interaction with the woman caught in adultery when He said “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more” (John 8:11). Jesus could not condone the woman’s behaviour, but nor did He express any negative feelings towards her as a person.

I relayed this paragraph to my best friend who is incidentally gay and who also happens to be married and is raising children with is husband. He called your claims many things, the only one i can post here is "a steaming pile"

He said: "No one has ever had to tell me when i was on the receiving end of hate. When you are faced with threats to yourself and your family you know it's hate. When you are called derogatory names while being assured that Jesus loves you, you know it's hate."

 

[Quartermaine]

To become a homosexual you must have some experiences in life,

What experiences?

which may not even be your own fault or your own choices. You are NOT a homosexual from birth.

Of course you can

You may have a predisposition towards that if you encounter the right circumstances, but you are not born as a homosexual.

prove it

And there are some studies that show that life experiences do have an influence on one as a homosexual.

cite them please

 

[stevevw]

Is it wrong to have a Homosexual orientation? Does a person choose to have a Homosexual orientation or not ? Should someone with a Homosexual orientation try to change their orientation and make themselves into a Heterosexual ? Is it sinful to find men attractive?

I find this a very contentious divisive topic. Topics like this and abortion or even marriage itself hit at the heart of the difference in Christian and secular belief and lifestyle. I tend to look at homosexuality as part of a bigger issue about relationships and families as being a fundamental basis for society. It is also associated with issues like gender identity.

It is hard to argue on individual cases as there can be good support where same sex couples have a loving relationship and can provide a loving environment for children. It is hard to deny some of the findings that show there may be some neurological influences that cause people to have same sex attraction or feel uneasy in themselves about their gender.

But overall as a Christian I see the gradual deterioration of the fundamental foundation of what the bible talks about when a man and women become one. I believe that is how it is meant to be and this is best for the family and children. But homosexuality is only one part of the picture. It began with the breakdown of relationships and marriage and secular laws that made it easier to undermine marriage. The breakdown and undermining in who males and females are and as a consequence the breakdown in families.

I believe homosexuality is a progression of a number of choices that secular society has made and is making that move further away from Christianity as we have seen in recent times the change to marriage laws. In that sense though I may disagree I cannot deny secular society the right to allow these things but I think it has consequences. As the bible says we pay for past generations sins and the fathers sins are bestowed on their children.

As a logical consequence of same sex marriage laws we are seeing changes in laws regarding gender identity which is having repercussions across society. As another consequence we are seeing the need for humans to experiment with changing peoples sex and child birth with artificial wombs. We are trying to play God and mess around with nature and I think this may lead to more problems.

So though I cannot really deny people the right to be what they want to be and do what they want to do as a secular society I worry that we are not considering the bigger picture here. It is all about individual rights and wants and we have forgotten what true love and sacrifice is about as far as God is concerned. There is a growing conflict between the two views and lately Christian belief is being ridiculed and attacked as bigotry and hate. I worry that some believers are compromising too much because of these conflicts and I think we need to stand firm on our faith as in the end I believe it is the best way to go for all.

 

[rjs330]

There is no doubt that homosexuals have endured some serious hatred. They have been called names, they have been assaulted, they have been threatened, and some have been killed for being gay. NONE of that is acceptable and NONE of that should be done. We should be able to agree to disagree without violence or threat of violence. Jesus confronted sinful behavior and never threatened violence.

At the same time I don't believe that unbelievers should be trying to force Christians to accept, or participate in any in their sinful behavior. I don't believe any unbelievers ever asking Jesus to accept or participate in or help celebrate their sin.

It's just as sinful to threaten or assault gays as it is to be gay. Christians need to understand this. God hates sin. He doesn't hate people. He hates the sin of assault or threats, making fun of etc as much as he hates the sin of homosexual sex. There is no difference to Him. Christians who do such things are sinning against God.

 

[Quartermaine]

So though I cannot really deny people the right to be what they want to be and do what they want to do as a secular society I worry that we are not considering the bigger picture here. It is all about individual rights and wants and we have forgotten what true love and sacrifice is about as far as God is concerned. There is a growing conflict between the two views and lately Christian belief is being ridiculed and attacked as bigotry and hate. I worry that some believers are compromising too much because of these conflicts and I think we need to stand firm on our faith as in the end I believe it is the best way to go for all.

No, bigotry and hate are being called out for what they are

 

[rjs330]

No, bigotry and hate are being called out for what they are

If you mean that assaultive behavior name calling is bigotry and hate, then I agree with you. If you are saying that calling homosexual sex sinful then we disagree.

If you are saying that believers should be forced to accept, and celebrate homosexuality then I'm afraid we will have to disagree on that as well.

If you are saying Christians should leave homosexuals alone and not try to use the government to punish them then we agree. It would be no different than demanding that the government punish people for lying, gossiping, gluttony, adultery etc. That's God's job. Not ours.

 

[sunshineforJesus]

I believe it is but am not prejudiced against them,it doesnt bother me at
all their orientation as far as being friends with them,but their being in sin does.