Is it Ethical to be fired for stating Christian beliefs

[Kenny'sID]

Yes, homosexuality, premarital sex, and any form of addiction is sinful, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are hell bound. If that is the case, what would that mean for other sins?

It would mean if they are in an "ongoing" relationship type sin, and/or they practice any sin willfully/as a lifestyle, they too will go to Hell.

I like this guy, Israel...now either fire him or change the rules...they can't have it both ways and he knew the consequences of his actions.

 

[Occams Barber]

You raise some interesting points. Would they extend to politicians. Is it appropriate that a politician represents his christian [or other religion] regardless of whether his constituency holds to those views.

I think that political representation is a different question to the one raised in the OP.

In very broad terms; a politician should always be able to justify his position based on rational arguments for the greater good taking into account the views of his specific constituency. This would exclude any "because Bible" type justification.
OB

 

[blackribbon]

I think that political representation is a different question to the one raised in the OP.

In very broad terms; a politician should always be able to justify his position based on rational arguments for the greater good taking into account the views of his specific constituency. This would exclude any "because Bible" type justification.
OB

And the politician works for the people. If he/she crosses a line, he/she will get "fired" too.

 

[keith99]

I played Union for over 40 years and have gone on tour in England, Wales and Australia. I spent one winter in New Zealand and played for a local club in Northland. I've stayed in the homes of players I first met the same day.

Players first ask 'is he a forward or a back' and rarely care about race, national origin, religion or sexual preference. At the club level there is typically a reception after each match where your opponent becomes your drinking buddy.

That cannot continue is players spread the sort of hate that Israel Folau does. If he were a football player (soccer for my fellow Americans) he very likely would have faced racial taunts. That is not the case in rugby, things like that are simply not acceptable. He would enjoy the advantages of an accepting culture while excluding others from those same benefits.

Oh and let's not forget that he included drunks in his list of who is going to Hell! Australia has some wonderful train access to stadiums so one can safely get quite drunk at a match and still get home without any of the dangers of drink driving (drunk driving for my fellow Americans).

Good on the Australian union for getting rid of a bad apple despite his physical abilities. ​

 

[Zoii]

I played Union for over 40 years and have gone on tour in England, Wales and Australia. I spent one winter in New Zealand and played for a local club in Northland. I've stayed in the homes of players I first met the same day.

Players first ask 'is he a forward or a back' and rarely care about race, national origin, religion or sexual preference. At the club level there is typically a reception after each match where your opponent becomes your drinking buddy.

That cannot continue is players spread the sort of hate that Israel Folau does. If he were a football player (soccer for my fellow Americans) he very likely would have faced racial taunts. That is not the case in rugby, things like that are simply not acceptable. He would enjoy the advantages of an accepting culture while excluding others from those same benefits.

Oh and let's not forget that he included drunks in his list of who is going to Hell! Australia has some wonderful train access to stadiums so one can safely get quite drunk at a match and still get home without any of the dangers of drink driving (drunk driving for my fellow Americans).

Good on the Australian union for getting rid of a bad apple despite his physical abilities. ​

My family is a rugby family. My brother until he died, played and loved the game. My father, like you, played and would constantly talk of the strong ethos - the respect and collegial regard for players and officials. Now he, himself is a referee and is well known around rugby circles in our state. My father often recounts how he might see guys in a pub that are a little rowdy, but recognise my father as a referee, and immediately change demeanour - "How are you, Sir. Do you remember us? You refereed us at....'. I envied that culture and started to play touch 7s just to be part of it.

So in reference to Folau - The vast majority in the rugby community agree with you. Whether you are a sublimely talented player or a golden oldie who just likes to run out on the paddock and drop the ball when its passed to you - respect for all is paramount - to alter that in any way would be a tragedy that cant be allowed to happen.

I recognise that Folau is a nice guy and an asset - I hope his church counsels him wisely so that he respects the culture of rugby, his church and also his contractual obligations.

 

[keith99]

I read a very thought-provoking piece a few days ago - which I can't find now, of course - which argued that in a way, Mr. Folau's church had failed him, by telling him that this is the only way to be a good Christian with a high public profile, and not equipping him to be an effective evangelist in ways which are appropriate in his context.

Should he have said it? Well, I don't think it's an effective proclamation of the good news of Christ, but maybe that's not the point. Should he be fired for it? I can understand why it happened; and he knew the consequences before he did it.

All around, it seems to me we need to find better ways to have difficult conversations, and perhaps the choice of medium here is a big part of the problem.

@No Username Found, no, Australia does not have the same legal underpinnings for freedom of religion as America.

One of my teammates was also a lay preacher and a public school teacher. I cannot remember any instance where he got any grief over sharing the Gospel and that includes his efforts to convert one other teammate who was Jewish. He also was very outspoken that he had never had any problems with informing his students that he was Christian. But he did not use class time for that of force things on students, instead he simply told them that he was Christian and if they wanted to know more they could ask him outside of class.

It sort of angers me that this sort of thing makes it harder on my teammate to share his faith in a positive way.

 

[Heavenhome]

What makes you think this is just the start??

The other question I have then is: If as you state, stating his christian views publicly is right and proper, was it ethical of him to sign a contract to continue his international rugby career, knowing full well he would be making these statements publicly in breech of the players code of conduct.

I should point out that it has created issues with his fellow team-mates who work very hard to be inclusive of anyone playing or following rugby.

What I mean by the start is the start of Christian beliefs coming under fire constantly and the Bible tells us we will be persecuted so we must expect it.
Does signing a contract mean you can't let your beliefs be known?
Did he walk walk around during rugby saying these things?
I don't want a debate I'm just saying my opinion that I don't think he should have been fired. However the way the climate is now with "political correctness" its best he isn't involved with the team. I think he's probably pretty happy now to be out of it.

And the most important thing is that he didn't compromise his beliefs for money.

Sorry I'm off now because my phones running out of charge.

 

[Occams Barber]

What I mean by the start is the start of Christian beliefs coming under fire constantly and the Bible tells us we will be persecuted so we must expect it.
Does signing a contract mean you can't let your beliefs be known?
Did he walk walk around during rugby saying these things?
I don't want a debate I'm just saying my opinion that I don't think he should have been fired. However the way the climate is now with "political correctness" its best he isn't involved with the team. I think he's probably pretty happy now to be out of it.

And the most important thing is that he didn't compromise his beliefs for money.

Sorry I'm off now because my phones running out of charge.

It's time we all called (some) Christians out from hiding behind "because Bible" reasons to harass and vilify and misinform other members of society. The rest of us accept that it is wrong to discriminate on gender or sexual preference. We accept that misogyny is wrong. We don't accept that myth should be taught as a substitute for real science. We accept that we all have a responsibility to report child abuse no matter where we hear about it. We accept that all people have a right to a legally valid relationship. We don't denigrate science because it's at odds with a 2000+ year old book. We accept that we should all contribute to the public good via the tax system. We don't give up because "the end is nigh".

It's time to stop giving Christianity a free ride.
OB

 

[FireDragon76]

Even if he had not said they were going to hell - to say that they are all sinful (AKA Bad if you looking at it from outside of christianity) - The issue is that he stated his religious conviction publicly regarding this cohort. Was that ethical to do given he signed a contract that bound him to a code of conduct.

If he freely signed a code of conduct, he should abide by it.

 

[Zoii]

It's time we all called (some) Christians out from hiding behind "because Bible" reasons to harass and vilify and misinform other members of society. The rest of us accept that it is wrong to discriminate on gender or sexual preference. We accept that misogyny is wrong. We don't accept that myth should be taught as a substitute for real science. We accept that we all have a responsibility to report child abuse no matter where we hear about it. We accept that all people have a right to a legally valid relationship. We don't denigrate science because it's at odds with a 2000+ year old book. We accept that we should all contribute to the public good via the tax system. We don't give up because "the end is nigh".

It's time to stop giving Christianity a free ride.
OB

Well said. That extends to most if not all religions

 

[FireDragon76]

I think he said they would all "go to hell if they do not repent". So he's just telling it like it is.

The way something is preached is just as important as what we think the substance of our message is.

In addition, unless someone has a vocation as a pastor, they are under no obligation to offer that sort of guidance.

 

[Larniavc]

Now before you jump onboard and say 'Of course its ethical' consider the current case that has dominated Australian media and Australian sport in particular.

Israel Folau is one of Australia's (if not the world's) greatest Rugby Union players. He is a match winner. He is talented beyond belief and has won an array of national and international sporting awards. He is currently in the Australian Rugby Union team called 'The Wallabies'.

Despite Israel's strong physical appearance, he is a highly personable, gentle and kind individual. He is extremely likeable. Israel is a Christian of the evangelistic ilk.

Rugby Union has as a very strong code of conduct. You will rarely see referee abuse from players - it prides itself on respect for all players, the referees and supporters. International players have particular responsibilities as so many people, particularly juniors, see them as role models. This added responsibility to acknowledge that whats said publicly must accord with the code of conduct, whether its said on the field or off it, is reinforced in player contracts.

Israel, despite being a very nice person has repeatedly made the following types of statements:
That those that are gay, unmarried people having sexual relationships, those that drink to excess....[the list goes on] are sinful and all going to hell.

Now Israel, of course, is making biblical references inline with his christian beliefs. He's not saying terrible things per se....HOWEVER - it has clearly been a breach of his contract and despite just recently signing a four year contract and despite being Australia's shining star - he has been sacked.

Israel Folau to be sacked by Rugby Australia over homophobic comments

Australian rugby's position is that it goes to great lengths to be inclusive. It is not concerned with who you choose to love, or that your mother is a single mother, or your father is in some sort of defacto relationship. It does not want those representing the sporting code to alter that perception with statements indicating that those following the sport are lesser individuals and are in some way bad for their sexual choices or marital status.

So the debate - religious freedom of speech versus the right of a sporting to code to insist its code of conduct is followed.

This has cost Israel Millions of dollars. He has lost sponsorship worth millions and his International rugby career is ended unless he can change his public statements.

Rugby is a great sport which I have fond memories of as a school boy. It’s about team work, camaraderie, inclusion, dedication, trust and seeing your team mates as important parts of a shared venture.

The game is sullied by this guys’s unsolicited divisive views.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think I can remember who shared it on FB, let me see if I can hunt it down.

Ah! Here we go. Long piece, but worth reading: How the church failed Israel (and modern Australia is too)

I like alot of what is being said, from my Lutheran perspective. I like how there is a call to take collective responsibility for bad behavior, and not simply scapegoat someone. I particularly like the emphasis on calling out the dualistic view of the world brought about by pietism, this is very much a misunderstanding of a correct doctrine of vocation, but common among Anglo-American (and I assume Australian too) evangelicals.

 

[RDKirk]

Thank you for the information. In regards to the OP, the Gospel at its very core is offensive. Offensive because before someone can see the need for a Savior, they must first be confronted with their sin.

No. Before anyone can see the need for a Savior, they must be enabled by the Father.
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

However, just as the Holy Spirit convicts us lovingly, not condemningly, we too ought to approach people with the Gospel in a similar fashion.

Your final sentence is the correct on. It's the Holy Spirit that convicts the world (the set of people who are not believers) of sin.

It is not the job of the Body of Christ to convict nonbelievers of sin. That is not our lane. That's the Holy Spirit's lane. We need to stay in our lane.

Our lane is the lane that was delineated by Christ Himself as He demonstrated how He operates. "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

 

[KCfromNC]

Yes that is correct - the point is that he is essentially saying - If you belong to [insert list of sinful behaviours] then your a bad person and will pay for it.

No-one disputes that Israel is a genuine person and a good person.

I'm not sure. I've never heard of the guy, but the first impression isn't a great one. I don't find attacking minority groups for something inherent to their person the actions of a "good" person. Nor do I find it respectable to hide behind religion when called out on such statements.

 

[FireDragon76]

Rugby is a great sport which I have fond memories of as a school boy. It’s about team work, camaraderie, inclusion, dedication, trust and seeing your team mates as important parts of a shared venture.

The game is sullied by this guys’s unsolicited divisive views.

Part of the point in the article that @Paidiske linked to is that Rugby is being turned into civic religion, and your comments reflect that . How can a sport that's really about people bashing each other up really be so sacred that one homophobic comment is an outrage that demands satisfaction, when the very ideology that makes that notion coherent, also happens to be the ideology that potentially inspires homophobic comments such as Mr. Folau's?

How the church failed Israel (and modern Australia is too)

I'm not sure. I've never heard of the guy, but the first impression isn't a great one. I don't find attacking minority groups for something inherent to their person the actions of a "good" person. Nor do I find it respectable to hide behind religion when called out on such statements.

I don't think he necessarily views it as a personal attack, even if it comes across as sounding like one. There's a tendency to assume the worst motivations in others, especially those we disagree with, and that's not at all right or helpful in dealing gracefully with a pluralistic world.

 

[KCfromNC]

I don't think he necessarily views it as a personal attack, even if it comes across as sounding like one.

Here's a chance for him to learn something about successfully interacting with other people.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

No - They wanted no endorsement of homosexuality or sexual relationships outside of marriage

if that's the case, then some biblical discipleship may have done this guy some good.

1 Corinthians 5 tells that while we are to judge those who claim to be a part of the believing community, we are to have a different approach with those outside. the gospel is to be preached to everyone, but this doesn't include behavior modification as much as it does a call to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. we're all sinners who have broken God's law and are worthy of His wrath. if someone is curious as to what specific thing they have done to break God's law, you can discuss that with that particular person privately, with more emphasis on repentance, faith in Christ, and God's mercy for sinners, than on how horrible their deeds are.

it is unfortunate that this individual lost his livelihood due to erring in his approach to evangelism.

 

[Petros2015]

As near as I can tell, there are no homosexuals in heaven.
There are also, as near as I can tell, no heterosexuals in heaven.
Sexuality is a limited life-time offer/experience, but I don't think extends beyond it into the afterlife.

30 In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.

So... making it the focus of your existence and identity if you think you are going to have one after... probably not a great idea.

 

[NBB]

He was just repeating what the bible says:

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

People are losing jobs and university studies because stating their christian beliefs.

He just paid a price for not conforming to this world.