Is God Three, or Two?

[truncated]

"My scripture trumps your scripture."

yeah why do you play that??

Does not address the scripture I posted in any meaningful way. If you think there is a relevant discussion of these vss, and fifty nine (59) other verses which address or refer to Jesus as God quote and link to them here and we can proceed.

you accuse me of ""trumping"" then you want me to address 59 prooftext's. HA!

i will not continue to post scripture back and forth, why? well see above and your accusations, i dont want to cause you to sin any further.

I'm sure you are confused. What are you referring to "the use of the word "and?" You might want to brush up on the Granville Sharp rule and TSKS constructions in the NT. FYI 2 Pet 1:1 and Tit 2:13 are TSKS constructions.

nope,...why, because scripture interpretes scripture, its not me making scripture contradict.

anyone can prooftext verses to ""prove"" heck, i can prove universalism by prooftexting.

I believe I asked you to explain this in my previous post and I don't see any clarification. Don't demand replies if you are unwilling or unable to answer me.

maybe i missed it...sorry:

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)


THE RUB:

we are either following the plan of Father or not....

please tell me who is subjecting you to the Son.

and in verse 28 above, does GOD there = a trinity? two persons of the trinity or all three??

now in NO WAY does this take away from the deity OF the Son.

so worry not.


have a good day.

 

[Der Alte]

yeah why do you play that??

you accuse me of ""trumping"" then you want me to address 59 prooftext's. HA!

Scriptural illiteracy. Listing 62 passages which address or refer to Jesus as YHWH/Theos is not proof texting, it is listing every passage that deals with a specific point.

i will not continue to post scripture back and forth, why? well see above and your accusations, i dont want to cause you to sin any further.

Until now you have not posted any scripture only alluded to some verses. If you will not post scripture back and forth what do you call the seven vss. you posted below. Not only did you post a proof text but you cherry picked a version which appears to support your assumptions/presuppositions

nope,...why, because scripture interpretes scripture, its not me making scripture contradict.

anyone can prooftext verses to ""prove"" heck, i can prove universalism by prooftexting.

And the vss. I posted are interpreted by other vss. but you can't know that because you ignore them, they disprove your assumptions/presuppositions.

maybe i missed it...sorry:

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

The word incorrectly translated "all" in this version, more correctly "all things" in most other versions is a A-APN Adjective, Accusative, Plural, Neuter. As a neuter it refers to "things" not persons. The passage does NOT say everything and everybody.

THE RUB:

we are either following the plan of Father or not....

please tell me who is subjecting you to the Son.

And you are either following the Father's plan or the false teachings of some post 19th religious group. Virtually all anti-Trinitarian groups came into existence in the late 19th century or later. According to 1 Cor 15:28 who is subjecting me to the son? Nobody!

and in verse 28 above, does GOD there = a trinity? two persons of the trinity or all three??

Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Just because something is not specifically mentioned in each and every verse does not disprove it.

now in NO WAY does this take away from the deity OF the Son.

so worry not.

have a good day.

All new anti-Trinitarians come here armed with their handful of out-of-context proof texts thinking they know all there is to know and that they are going to show Trinitarians a thing or two. There is no argument or prooftext which has not been tried before. Nobody has an original anti-Trinitarian argument. Somebody has heard it and addressed it somewhere.

 

[truncated]

=Der Alter;55553536]Scriptural illiteracy. Listing 62 passages which address or refer to Jesus as YHWH/Theos is not proof texting, it is listing every passage that deals with a specific point.

YHVH= essesnce? please give your definition of YHVH...... Yeshua is the Son of YHVH...i agree 100%

Until now you have not posted any scripture only alluded to some verses

ok

And the vss. I posted are interpreted by other vss. but you can't know that because you ignore them, they disprove your assumptions/presuppositions.

ok

The word incorrectly translated "all" in this version, more correctly "all things" in most other versions is a A-APN Adjective, Accusative, Plural, Neuter. As a neuter it refers to "things" not persons. The passage does NOT say everything and everybody.

follow the topic and identify the object sir, the resurrection is being spoken of starting in verse 13.

then verse 22.....then he speaks of ""enemies"" are you saying enemies refers to ""THINGS"" only? OH OH OH and:

27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)


is the Son a ""thing"" too?? GET REAL!


24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.

The kingdom is full of ""THINGS"" please sir... for real.

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


sripture interpreting scripture...RIGHT THERE MAN!!!

And you are either following the Father's plan or the false teachings of some post 19th religious group.

Father's plan

Virtually all anti-Trinitarian groups came into existence in the late 19th century or later. According to 1 Cor 15:28 who is subjecting me to the son? Nobody!

actually im not ""anti"" trinitarian, the trinity is mans vain attempt to explain God, and there is certainly triunity in scriptures, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Just because something is not specifically mentioned in each and every verse does not disprove it.

yeah ive heard that before.....

All new anti-Trinitarians come here armed with their handful of out-of-context proof texts thinking they know all there is to know and that they are going to show Trinitarians a thing or two. There is no argument or prooftext which has not been tried before. Nobody has an original anti-Trinitarian argument. Somebody has heard it and addressed it somewhere.

Im not here to change your mind about the trinity, thats impossible. you have to much invested for little old me to change anything.

i love it too, its ALWAYS the other guy with"" out of context proofs""

never you


QUESTION:

how can the LORD be THAT Spirit and the Spirit also be OF ....

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

 

[Der Alte]

YHVH= essesnce? please give your definition of YHVH...... Yeshua is the Son of YHVH...i agree 100%

Where did I use the word "essence?"

follow the topic and identify the object sir, the resurrection is being spoken of starting in verse 13.

then verse 22.....then he speaks of ""enemies"" are you saying enemies refers to ""THINGS"" only? OH OH OH and:

27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

First this chapter speaks of resurrection, then defeating enemies, then subjecting all things. What is your argument/point? Paul cannot refer to more than one subject in a chapter?

is the Son a ""thing"" too?? GET REAL!

The son is not included in the all things. First the things "then" Christ, vs. 25. You get real!

24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.

The kingdom is full of ""THINGS"" please sir... for real.

"Kingdom" includes many things that are not persons! "sovereignty" is not a person! "authority" is not a person! "power" is not a person!

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

"angels" are not person! "authorities" are not persons! "powers" are not persons" Even if they all were, the form of the word translated "all things" in 1 Cor 15:28 is παντα A-NPN, Adjective, Nominative, Plural, Neuter, which refers to "things!" The form πας A-NSM, Adjective, Nominative, Singular, Masculine, which refers to persons, occurs sixty one times in the NT and is translated "every one."

If a NT writer wanted to say "every one and everything" he would have written πᾶς καί παντα

scripture interpreting scripture...RIGHT THERE MAN!!!

Looks like you don't even know what that means.

Father's plan

Not when you ignore what scripture actually says in the original language.

actually im not ""anti"" trinitarian, the trinity is mans vain attempt to explain God, and there is certainly triunity in scriptures, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

M-W dictionary online- Definition of TRINITY
1 : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
2 not capitalized : a group of three closely related persons or things
3 : the Sunday after Whitsunday observed as a feast in honor of the Trinity
Origin of TRINITY
Middle English trinite, from Anglo-French trinité, from Late Latin trinitat-, trinitas state of being threefold, from Latin trinus threefold
First Known Use: 13th century

Definition of TRIUNE
: trinity 1
Origin of TRIUNE
Latin tri- + unus one — more at one
First Known Use: 1605​

yeah ive heard that before.....

Thus your argument was a logical fallacy!

Im not here to change your mind about the trinity, thats impossible. you have to much invested for little old me to change anything.

So who are you trying to impress with the same ol', lame ol' arguments?

i love it too, its ALWAYS the other guy with"" out of context proofs""

never you

And it is always this guy who shows how something is out-of-context as I have done with 1 Cor 15:28 and 2 Cor 3:17.

QUESTION:

how can the LORD be THAT Spirit and the Spirit also be OF ....

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

And yet another out-of-context proof text which does not say what you think it does. You ignored, or probably had never read vss. 13-16 which show who the Lord is in vs. 17. When you quote scripture include the book, chapter, and verse, unless you are trying to hide something.

2Co 3:13-17
(13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
(14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
(15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
(16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​

The people of Israel have a vail when reading the OT, but when they turn to Jesus, vs. 14, the Lord, vs. 16, the vail is done/taken away. Jesus is the Lord referred to vs. 17.

 

[truncated]

Where did I use the word "essence?"

you didnt hence the QUESTION MARK

First this chapter speaks of resurrection, then defeating enemies, then subjecting all things. What is your argument/point? Paul cannot refer to more than one subject in a chapter?



The son is not included in the all things. First the things "then" Christ, vs. 25. You get real!



"Kingdom" includes many things that are not persons! "sovereignty" is not a person! "authority" is not a person! "power" is not a person!



"angels" are not person! "authorities" are not persons! "powers" are not persons" Even if they all were, the form of the word translated "all things" in 1 Cor 15:28 is παντα A-NPN, Adjective, Nominative, Plural, Neuter, which refers to "things!" The form πας A-NSM, Adjective, Nominative, Singular, Masculine, which refers to persons, occurs sixty one times in the NT and is translated "every one."

ok so you disagree 1cor 15 has nothing to to with men being subjected to the Son, i see where the problem is, i am real sorry you disagree.


YOU CALL HIM LORD, BUT YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE SUBJECTED TO HIM......GOT IT

angels are not ""persons"" oh my, how about messengers ???is the devil a person? look ALL THINGS includes ALL THINGS dooop de dooo.....

BUT you blew it here saying angels and devils etc are not ""persons"" because you say God the Father is a person, because you HAVE TOO its in your tradition and doctrines of men.

JESUS WAS MADE A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, HE WAS A PERSON, GOD THE FATHER IS A PERSON, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON......ETC ETC ETC..

EXPOSED YOURSELF HERE,,,,, DEFINE WORDS AS YOU SEE FIT.



you cant stand it can you. ALL THINGS includes ""persons"" and ""peoples""

looks like you don't even know what that means.

i expect nothing less from you, and sure you are lots smarter than me, you probly think you Love God more than me.....

Not when you ignore what scripture actually says in the original language.

yes its always the other person, never you...

<B>

M-W dictionary online- Definition of TRINITY
​

1 : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
2 not capitalized : a group of three closely related persons or things
3 : the Sunday after Whitsunday observed as a feast in honor of the Trinity
Origin of TRINITY
Middle English trinite, from Anglo-French trinité, from Late Latin trinitat-, trinitas state of being threefold, from Latin trinus threefold
First Known Use: 13th century

Definition of TRIUNE
: trinity 1
Origin of TRIUNE
Latin tri- + unus one &#8212; more at one
First Known Use: 1605
​

i know the doctrine....</B>
​

Thus your argument was a logical fallacy!

well of course

So who are you trying to impress with the same ol', lame ol' arguments?

neener neener.....

And yet another out-of-context proof text which does not say what you think it does. You ignored, or probably had never read vss. 13-16 which show who the Lord is in vs. 17. When you quote scripture include the book, chapter, and verse, unless you are trying to hide something.

i dont have enough posts for some reason i cant post the chapter and verse...you a smart guy though. heck, when the writers of the nT qouted scripture they didnt add the verse and chapter, did they pfffffft

anyone with Spirit dosent need verse and chapter.


<B>

2Co 3:13-17

(13) And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
(14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
(15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
(16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
​

The people of Israel have a vail when reading the OT, but when they turn to Jesus, vs. 14, the Lord, vs. 16, the vail is done/taken away. Jesus is the Lord referred to vs. 17

OH i have read it many times and you avoided the question.

again if Jesus/Lord IS THAT Spirit how can the Spirit be a different person FROM HIM???


you WONT answer, you have avoided many questions here and i see the same old same old from YOU too. RIGHT??


there is no dialog here...good bye.


</B>

 

[2ducklow]

you didnt hence the QUESTION MARK





ok so you disagree 1cor 15 has nothing to to with men being subjected to the Son, i see where the problem is, i am real sorry you disagree.


YOU CALL HIM LORD, BUT YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE SUBJECTED TO HIM......GOT IT

angels are not ""persons"" oh my, how about messengers ???is the devil a person? look ALL THINGS includes ALL THINGS dooop de dooo.....

BUT you blew it here saying angels and devils etc are not ""persons"" because you say God the Father is a person, because you HAVE TOO its in your tradition and doctrines of men.

JESUS WAS MADE A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, HE WAS A PERSON, GOD THE FATHER IS A PERSON, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON......ETC ETC ETC..

EXPOSED YOURSELF HERE,,,,, DEFINE WORDS AS YOU SEE FIT.



you cant stand it can you. ALL THINGS includes ""persons"" and ""peoples""





i expect nothing less from you, and sure you are lots smarter than me, you probly think you Love God more than me.....



yes its always the other person, never you...

<B>
​

i know the doctrine....</B>
​

well of course





neener neener.....




i dont have enough posts for some reason i cant post the chapter and verse...you a smart guy though. heck, when the writers of the nT qouted scripture they didnt add the verse and chapter, did they pfffffft

anyone with Spirit dosent need verse and chapter.


<B>


OH i have read it many times and you avoided the question.

again if Jesus/Lord IS THAT Spirit how can the Spirit be a different person FROM HIM???


you WONT answer, you have avoided many questions here and i see the same old same old from YOU too. RIGHT??


there is no dialog here...good bye.


</B>

You catch on fast.

 

[Der Alte]

you didnt hence the QUESTION MARK

The question implied that I said or implied that YHWH = essence.

ok so you disagree 1cor 15 has nothing to to with men being subjected to the Son, i see where the problem is, i am real sorry you disagree.

As you say at the bottom there is no dialog here! You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. Try actually reading what I posted if you want dialog. I said that 1 Cor 15: vs. 28 does not refer to men being subject to Christ that had already happened, see e.g. Eph 5:24.

YOU CALL HIM LORD, BUT YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE SUBJECTED TO HIM......GOT IT

You claim you want dialog but you continue to deliberately misrepresent what I said. Try reading what I say. See my reply immediately above.

angels are not ""persons"" oh my, how about messengers ???is the devil a person? look ALL THINGS includes ALL THINGS dooop de dooo.....

A person can be a messenger but an "angel" is not necessarily a person unless the text clearly states it. The text in question does not.

BUT you blew it here saying angels and devils etc are not ""persons"" because you say God the Father is a person, because you HAVE TOO its in your tradition and doctrines of men.

You blew it you don't seem to know the difference between a human being, person, and others who are persons.

JESUS WAS MADE A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, HE WAS A PERSON, GOD THE FATHER IS A PERSON, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON......ETC ETC ETC..

EXPOSED YOURSELF HERE,,,,, DEFINE WORDS AS YOU SEE FIT.

You exposed nothing but your own false religious group assumptions/presuppositions.

you cant stand it can you. ALL THINGS includes ""persons"" and ""peoples""

You can place your self among "things" i.e. the earth itself and animals, etc in the earth, if you want to, but I am not a "thing!"

i know the doctrine....

Evidently you don't if you think Trinity and Triunity mean different things. Evidently all you know is what your leaders have force fed you.

i dont have enough posts for some reason i cant post the chapter and verse...you a smart guy though. heck, when the writers of the nT qouted scripture they didnt add the verse and chapter, did they pfffffft

anyone with Spirit dosent need verse and chapter.

You don't have to any particular number of post all you have to is type! Like I typed Eph 5:24 and 1 Cor 15:28 above and here. All false religious groups claim the spirit leads them too, JW, LDS, UU, OP, anti-Trin MJ, WWCG, kristadelfian, etc. and they all claim they are right and everyone else is wrong just like you are doing.

OH i have read it many times and you avoided the question.

again if Jesus/Lord IS THAT Spirit how can the Spirit be a different person FROM HIM???

you WONT answer, you have avoided many questions here and i see the same old same old from YOU too. RIGHT??

You tell me, because Jesus said that, The Father; the Son, Himself; and the Holy Spirit had separate and distinct “selves,” Jn 5:19, 20, 26; 16:13.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself [&#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965;]; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;​

In this verse, Joh 5:26, Jesus speaks of two separate and distinct “selves.” One “self,” the Father, gives to the other “self,” the Son.

G1438 &#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; heautou heh-ow-too'

(Including all the other cases); from a reflexive pronoun otherwise obsolete and the genitive (dative or accusative) of G846; him (her, it, them, also [in conjunction with the personal pronoun of the other persons] my, thy, our, your) -self (-selves), etc.: - alone, her (own, -self), (he) himself, his (own), itself, one (to) another, our (thine) own (-selves), + that she had, their (own, own selves), (of) them (-selves), they, thyself, you, your (own, own conceits, own selves, -selves).

Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.​

In this verse, Joh 16:27, Jesus again refers to the Father having a “self,” as distinct from Jesus.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself [&#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965;]; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​

In this verse, Joh 16:13, Jesus clearly indicates that the Spirit has a “self,” using the same word, “himself,” He used to distinguish between, Jesus, himself, and the Father.

“Oneness,” and other anti-Trinitarians, teach that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but it is “the mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God. If that is true, in John 16:13,

• Who does the, “mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God, speak from if not from God?
• Who does the, “mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God, hear from if not from God?
• Who tells the “mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God, of things to come in the future, if not God?

If the anti-Trinitarian doctrine is correct then the Christians at Ephesus did not know that God had “a mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who [Christ] through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?​

The “self,” of Christ distinguished from “the eternal spirit,” and from “God.” And note the clear distinction of the Triune God, 1. the blood of Christ, 2. the eternal Spirit, and 3. the living God?

Does the word, himself somehow have a different meaning in this verse, than it does in John 5:26, which seems to have a different meaning in John 16:13, according to anti-Trinitarian teaching?

there is no dialog here...good bye.

You are right there is no dialog. You want to cram your false teaching down my throat while you continually misrepresent what I say.

 

[truncated]

The question implied that I said or implied that YHWH = essence.

well im looking for your definition of YHVH, which you have yet to give.

is YHVH a trinity? then how you say Jesus is YHVH when scripture says he is the SON of YHVH.

If the anti-Trinitarian doctrine is correct then the Christians at Ephesus did not know that God had &#8220;a mind, energy, power, force, influence,&#8221; etc.

this has nothing to do with ""anti"" anything.

​

You are right there is no dialog. You want to cram your false teaching down my throat while you continually misrepresent what I say

asking questions is ""craming"" i think not........ throw all the ad homs around you want.

blah blah blah.....


Listen, you keep posting scriptures at me that i dont disagree with.

if the LORD is that Spirit, how his the Spirit a different person.

as for all your prooftexts, i know what autos means...any scripture i post you will accuse me of ""trumping""

You don't have to any particular number of post all you have to is type

this is what come up big daddy:

To be able to post links or images your post count must be 50 or greater. You currently have 33 posts.

Please remove links from your message, then you will be able to submit your post.

when i delete verse and chapter it allows me to post... neener neener


NOW..the rub:

in 2 cor 3:17, is the spirit OF the Lord, the Holy Spirit?

this one verse for me destroys the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is a different person FROM the LORD, for even in the greek its plain, THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT.

ALL THE HE'S AND SUCH ARE INTERPRETED BY IT. AND SCRIPTURE IS OPENED UP TO ME.


i end here...take care.

 

[Der Alte]

well im looking for your definition of YHVH, which you have yet to give.

is YHVH a trinity? then how you say Jesus is YHVH when scripture says he is the SON of YHVH.

I thought you said you knew the doctrine of the Trinity? If you know the doctrine then you know the answer to this question. If you don't know why did you claim that you did. You did not even know that Trinity and Triunity mean exactly the same thing.

I have always found this definition to be satisfactory.

H3068 &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; yeho&#770;va&#770;h
BDB Definition:
Jehovah = “the existing One”
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of H136
Part of Speech: noun proper deity
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H1961
Same Word by TWOT Number: 484a​

Neener, neener. . . .

asking questions is ""craming"" i think not........ throw all the ad homs around you want.

blah blah blah.....

Ad homs? You mean like "Neener, neener . . ." and "blah, blah, blah?"

Listen, you keep posting scriptures at me that i dont disagree with.

if the LORD is that Spirit, how his the Spirit a different person.

You didn't read my post above about the separate "selfs" of father, son, and holy spirit. and once again if you "know" the doctrine of the Trinity then you should know the answer to this.

as for all your prooftexts, i know what autos means...any scripture i post you will accuse me of ""trumping""

The word I discussed was &#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; NOT &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#962;

this is what come up big daddy:

when i delete verse and chapter it allows me to post... neener neener

If you copy/paste the scripture from your own or an online Bible program there is no linking involved and even if you are linking you can type in the Book, chapter, and verse like this as "1 Cor 15:28" separate from the scripture itself and it will not show as a link. And OBTW "big daddy" is an insult and an ad hominem.

NOW..the rub:

in 2 cor 3:17, is the spirit OF the Lord, the Holy Spirit?

this one verse for me destroys the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is a different person FROM the LORD, for even in the greek its plain, THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT.

All intensely indoctrinated members of post 19th century false religious groups think they have the one vs. which supposedly destroys the doctrine of the Trinity. This merely shows you don't have a clue what the doctrine is or teaches.

There are at least 62 passages in the NT which address or refer to Jesus as YHWH or Theos, but he is not the father or the holy spirit. There are at least four passages in the NT which address or refer to the holy spirit as Theos or YHWH, but he is not the father or the son.

ALL THE HE'S AND SUCH ARE INTERPRETED BY IT. AND SCRIPTURE IS OPENED UP TO ME.

Shows you did NOT even read my post! My point did not depend on the masculine pronoun.

i end here...take care.

You said that before but you keep coming back

 

[Doveaman]

I quoted a trinitarian who agrees with you who is saying nature is a thing.. A nature is not a thing, thus I have shown with that quote that trinitarians don't use nature to mean nature. they use nature to mean nothing as you have. Nature has no meaning as trinitarians use it.

It has meaning as I use it.

There is the human nature and there is the divine nature. Christ had both. Even we humans can partake in the divine nature: "His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness...that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature" - 2 Peter 1:2-4.

scripture supports my view that christ was a man and not a nature.

Christ was a man with a nature that was both divine and human in that He was begotten of God and born of Mary.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and man because He is God and man, and as God and man He bridged the gap between God and man.

Then it appears that you are assuming that elohiym who is singluar is plural because he used the pronoun us, and not because he used the word elohiym.

I based my conclusion on both:

The Bible describes God as plural (elohiym): &#8220;The Word was with God and the Word was God&#8221;.

And God described Himself as plural: &#8220;I and My Father are one&#8221;...one Spirit, one God.

how do you know from that verse that God or Elohiym is refering to himself as us, and not to himself and someone or someones else?

Someone else like who?

We are created in God&#8217;s image only and not in the image of anyone else: In the beginning...God [Elohiym]said, &#8220;Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness&#8221; - Gen 1:1,26.

Only God is speaking here of creating man in God's own image and likeness.

Your conjoined twin analogy isn't 2 persons that are one being.

They are two persons existing as one flesh-being:

Being:
1. to exist or live
2. to take place; happen; occur
3. to occupy a place or position
4. that which has actuality either materially or in idea.

God is one Spirit-being, but even we are still trying to figure out the nature of God as a being, hence this thread.

The twins are 2 pesons sharing one body. they are not their body, they just occupy it. Humans are souls, the conjoined twins are 2 souls occuping one physical body.

The soul is the body and the spirit combined into a single being called man: &#8220;The LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground (body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit); and man became a living soul.&#8221; - Gen 2:7.

Man is spirit and body existing as a living soul.

God is Father and Son existing as the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying the spirit that God the Father and Jesus are is just a spirit body they occupy, or are you saying the 2 persons, God the Father and Jesus are 2 persons that are one spirit being? Is the spirit a being or is it just a body they occupy?

The Spirit is a being because the Spirit is God: &#8220;God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit&#8221; - John 4:24

The Father and Son are two persons existing as one Spirit being, one God.

What kind of being is God the father? a spirit being? Not a being? a personality? what? If God the Father and Jesus are both spirit beings that exist as one spirit, then you are saying 2 is one.

The Father and Son are not two spirit beings, they are one Spirit being, one Holy Spirit being. The Father and Son are two persons existing as one Holy Spirit being.

Logically , if you say God the Father and Jesus exist as one spirit, then you are really just saying god the Father and Jesus are the same spirit being. no difference, just 2 names for the same spirit being. which would mean Jesus was talking to himself though out his ministry. So I know you don't mean that Jesus and God the father are just diferent namees for the same spirit being, even though that's what you said means. Probably you mean Jesus and god the father are some kind of undefined person that nobody knows what they are that exist as one spirit being. That's the typical trinitarian view.

What I mean is: Just as Abby and Brittany are two persons existing as one flesh, even so, Father and Son are two persons existing as one Spirit, one Holy Spirit.

the bible says all the fullness of the diety lives in Christ , according to your bible translation, How do you get Christ is the fullness of God out of the fullnesss of the deity dwells in him? how do you get "Is" out of "in him"?

The fullness of the Deity dwells in the bodily form of Christ because Christ Himself is God in the form of a physical body.

Do you thnk Christ was literally a rock back then? or do you think that Rock represented Christ?

I think the figurative rock represented the literal Christ who existed back then as the God who led Israel out of Egypt.

What's it mean "that spiritual rock was christ"? What is the spiritual rock that they drank from ? I say it was the word of god, what God says, I suppose you would say they drank jesus in some kind of figurative sense.

For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea...and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. - 1 Cor 10:1-4.

The spiritual rock they drank from is figurative, but it represents their literal reliance on the literal Christ who literally accompanied them under the cloud and through the sea.

 

[Doveaman]

NOW..the rub:
in 2 cor 3:17, is the spirit OF the Lord, the Holy Spirit?
this one verse for me destroys the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is a different person FROM the LORD, for even in the greek its plain, THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT.

The verse above was posted to you, Der Alter, by truncated. I am interested in knowing your answer to it, as I am following your conversation with interest.

In addition:

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself [&#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965;]

If the Holy Spirit is God and was sent to us to reveal God, then how can he not speak of himself?

 

[Doveaman]

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself [&#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965;]; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

In this verse, Joh 16:13, Jesus clearly indicates that the Spirit has a “self,” using the same word, “himself,” He used to distinguish between, Jesus, himself, and the Father.

The verse above was posted to you, truncated, by Der Alter. I think the question is: Since the Bible speaks of the Spirit as a “he” having a “self”, or as “Himself”, who can “hear” and “speak”; doesn’t this suggest that the Spirit is a distinct person? If not, then what is the Holy Spirit?

 

[Der Alte]

NOW..the rub:
in 2 cor 3:17, is the spirit OF the Lord, the Holy Spirit?
this one verse for me destroys the doctrine that the Holy Spirit is a different person FROM the LORD, for even in the greek its plain, THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT.

The verse above was posted to you, Der Alter, by truncated. I am interested in knowing your answer to it, as I am following your conversation with interest.

The Bible is clear there is only one God, the father is called or referred to as God but he is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is called or referred to as God but he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is called or referred to as God but he is not the Son, or the Father. As I have shown Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have a distinct "self."

The early church solved this dilemma by using the word "persona" to describe this distinction. The oldest known usage of the word "Trinity" was by Theophilus in 168 AD. Justin Martyr spoke of the different persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in his dialogue, ca. 155 AD.

So God has manifested himself in history and scripture as three persons.

In addition:

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself [&#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965;]​

If the Holy Spirit is God and was sent to us to reveal God, then how can he not speak of himself?

Justin Martyr said the Holy Spirit spoke from the person of God and sometimes from his own person.

 

[truncated]

The Bible is clear there is only one God, the father is called or referred to as God but he is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is called or referred to as God but he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is called or referred to as God but he is not the Son, or the Father. As I have shown Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have a distinct "self."

The early church solved this dilemma by using the word "persona" to describe this distinction. The oldest known usage of the word "Trinity" was by Theophilus in 168 AD. Justin Martyr spoke of the different persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in his dialogue, ca. 155 AD.

So God has manifested himself in history and scripture as three persons.


Justin Martyr said the Holy Spirit spoke from the person of God and sometimes from his own person.

Yes the Holy spirit is God for its the very Spirit OF God.

 

[Hiroyuki]

If God the Father is the Holy Spirit and God the Son is also the Holy Spirit, then God is Father and Son existing as One Holy Spirit, Two Persons existing as One Spirit Being.

Perhaps the closest physical analogy of God as One Spirit Being are Siamese twins:

I'm not saying that the Father and the Son are Siamese twins or that they even look like Siamese twins, I'm just using the physical union of Siamese twins as a physical analogy of the Spirit union of the Father and the Son.

While the physical being of the Siamese twins are restricted by time and space, the Spiritual Being of God is not. But just as each Siamese twin can act independently but not separately because of their physical union, even so the Father and the Son can act independently but not separately because of their Spirit union. The Two exist as One.

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.

No, not at all, and Siamese twins are two people genuinely.


It is more akin to one's conscious and unconscious mind.


It is akin to a lot of things. It is akin to cloning. What would you say and do in different perspectives and situations.


The Holy Spirit... "all prophecy is testimony of Jesus". Words and deeds you see in Bible. That says that their real Father is Jesus, God.

It is spiritual genetics, spiritual DNA. Instead of mere physical.


They are "like Jesus". When perfection comes they are themselves but also true children of God just like Jesus, though Jesus is older and their Father.


Jesus is the Father at a singular point in time and space. No one goes to the Father but through Jesus, so Jesus is the head. That is the true hierarchy.

God is true love, love is a person, not some mere emotion as people tend to think of it.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes the Holy spirit is God for its the very Spirit OF God

Jesus said that, The Father; the Son, Jesus himself; and the Holy Spirit had separate and distinct “selves,” Jn 5:19, 20, 26; 16:13.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself [&#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965;]; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;​

In this verse, Joh 5:26, Jesus speaks of two separate and distinct “selves.” One “self,” the Father, gives to the other “self,” the Son.

G1438 &#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; heautou heh-ow-too'

(Including all the other cases); from a reflexive pronoun otherwise obsolete and the genitive (dative or accusative) of G846; him (her, it, them, also [in conjunction with the personal pronoun of the other persons] my, thy, our, your) -self (-selves), etc.: - alone, her (own, -self), (he) himself, his (own), itself, one (to) another, our (thine) own (-selves), + that she had, their (own, own selves), (of) them (-selves), they, thyself, you, your (own, own conceits, own selves, -selves).​

Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.[/indent]
In this verse, Joh 16:27, Jesus again refers to the Father having a “self,” as distinct from Jesus.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself [&#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965;]; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​

In this verse, Joh 16:13, Jesus clearly indicates that the Spirit has a “self,” using the same word, “himself,” He used to distinguish between, Jesus, himself, and the Father.

“Oneness,” and other anti-Trinitarians, teach that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but it is “the mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God or “God himself. “ If that is true, in John 16:13,

1. Who does God, speak from if not from God?
2. Who does God, hear from if not from God?
3. Who tells God, of things to come in the future, if not God?

If the anti-Trinitarian doctrine is correct then the Christians at Ephesus did not know that God even had a spirit.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who [Christ] through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?​

The “self,” of Christ distinguished from “the eternal spirit,” and from “God.” And note the clear distinction of the Triune God, 1. the blood of Christ, 2. the eternal Spirit, and 3. the living God?

Does the word, himself somehow have a different meaning in this verse, than it does in John 5:26, which seems to have a different meaning in John 16:13, according to anti-Trinitarian teaching?

 

[stranger]

If God the Father is the Holy Spirit and God the Son is also the Holy Spirit, then God is Father and Son existing as One Holy Spirit, Two Persons existing as One Spirit Being.

Perhaps the closest physical analogy of God as One Spirit Being are Siamese twins:

I'm not saying that the Father and the Son are Siamese twins or that they even look like Siamese twins, I'm just using the physical union of Siamese twins as a physical analogy of the Spirit union of the Father and the Son.

While the physical being of the Siamese twins are restricted by time and space, the Spiritual Being of God is not. But just as each Siamese twin can act independently but not separately because of their physical union, even so the Father and the Son can act independently but not separately because of their Spirit union. The Two exist as One.

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.

God is One , whole, complete...
God is spirit...
The spirit of God is God then , not another...

God has MANY spirits given to every being , and they ALL return to God at death :-

Genesis 2:7 So then Yahweh God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life—and man became a living soul.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the spirit of all the flesh of men.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

God can send an evil spirit in a man :-

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul...

Thus the spirits of God manifest as good and evil in men , there is not just one spirit of god, the spirit of truth is just one of MANY ...

Equally , how many sons does God have ? The bible talks of MANY and Satan coming among them to present himself to God when God calls his sons together to present themselves ...

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Thus if one is going to count the spirits and sons of God , then three is not the answer ... God presents many 'faces' to men, not just three , there simply is no 'threeness' about God only many aspects ALL ONE in Him...
__________________

 

[Doveaman]

The Holy Spirit... "all prophecy is testimony of Jesus". Words and deeds you see in Bible.

So is Jesus the Holy Spirit?

That says that their real Father is Jesus, God

Well, the Scripture does refer to Jesus as "Everlasting Father", but I don't think it means that Jesus is also His own Father. The reason why Jesus is the Son is because He has a Father that is distinct from Himself, a Father by whom He was begotten, a Father whom He prayed to, and a Father at whose right hand He now sits.

"If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I." - John 14:28.

 

[Doveaman]

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul...

Thus the spirits of God manifest as good and evil in men

I think 'evil spirit' in this case refers to a fallen angel, or demon. Fallen angels are still subject to God's authority and follow His will.

 

[stranger]

God is many things to many men, all one, none are two, none are three ... many things all one
many begotten sons, all one, not just the first one
many spirits, all one
no 'three-ness' whatsoever ...

But my main question is this, why would one even want to count God ????
why make men your enemies because you stop counting at three when there is much more to God than three aspects of His unity, His one-ness ... it is absurdly unloving to do so, disobedience to God even ... and it is clearly illogical to stop counting at three when there is more to count, but why count at all ????