Is God Three, or Two?

[Dlorah]

“The sun and its light, the ocean and the wave, the singer and his song - not one. Not two." - Father Anthony de Mello

 

[Doveaman]

“The sun and its light, the ocean and the wave, the singer and his song - not one. Not two." - Father Anthony de Mello

Interesting.

The sun and its light are distinct but not separate.

The ocean and the wave are distinct but not separate.

The singer and his song are distinct but not separate.

The Father and His Word are distinct but not separate.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1.

I think Father de Mello was onto something.

 

[stranger]

Distinct modes of one Spirit ... but my point is that there are not just three aspects of God's spirit, there are many, and who would even want to even try to count them, what for, let alone persecute [and segregate them as this site does] anyone who refuses to pretend there are only three , that God has some kind of 'three-ness' when He is one ... God is many things in one, ALL ONE and not three of anything ... many begotten sons of God , many spirits of God , all ONE , none three...

It is clear to me that Satan gains nothing from claiming God is three except a means of segregating out for eventual persecution the saints and prophets who know He is ONE [many aspects of ONE, but simply never three]

Satan has already won most , getting them confused that three can be one , needs now to behead the saints, but has to find them first... there can hardly be any other explanantion of what seems insane, counting aspects of god and finding only three

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The question then is, does one even care enough to say God is not three when the madness of men will cause them to behead you if you refuse to say it ??? It should be funny, laughable even, but chopping folks heads off ?... modern witch-hunts ? ... if you don't believe its real, just look at the intense enforced segregation of this site that claimed once to be bringing christians together ... now one is already censored in wha one can say, even obvious lies that contradict scripture are enshrined in unassailable enclaves , defended by champions of the DIVISION of christianity in the name of not disturbing sinners from their deadly sleep ...at least we know Satan gets caught in his own trap along with the masses , and God redeems them later [Rev 7:9-10]

 

[Der Alte]

Interesting.

The sun and its light are distinct but not separate.

The ocean and the wave are distinct but not separate.

The singer and his song are distinct but not separate.

The Father and His Word are distinct but not separate.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1.

I think Father de Mello was onto something.

In his Dialogue with Trypho, dated about 150 AD, Justin Martyr used the illustration of the sun and sunlight.

He appears strayed in such forms as the Father pleases; and they call Him the Word, because He carries tidings from the Father to men: but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible and inseparable from the sun in the heavens; as when it sinks, the light sinks along with it; so the Father, when He chooses, say they, causes His power to spring forth, and when He chooses, He makes it return to Himself. In this way, they teach, He made the angels. But it is proved that there are angels who always exist, and are never reduced to that form out of which they sprang. And that this power which the prophetic word calls God, as has been also amply demonstrated, and Angel, is not numbered [as different] in name only like the light of the sun but is indeed something numerically distinct, I have discussed briefly in what has gone before; when I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, [cutting off] as if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned and divided are not the same after as before they were divided: and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that from which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same.​

 

[Der Alte]

Distinct modes of one Spirit ... but my point is that there are not just three aspects of God's spirit, there are many, and who would even want to even try to count them, what for, let alone persecute anyone who refuses to pretend there are only three , that God has some kind of 'three-ness' when He is one ... God is many things in one, ALL ONE and not three of anything ... many begotten sons of God , many spirits of God , all ONE , none three...

Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.

Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [1]

Modalism - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity​

 

[stranger]

The mistake, which cost Jesus his life, is to think that being equal to God is to be blasphemous ... yet it is obvious that the created cannot be the creator ...

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Nor do many folks understand that a messenger of God can bear th face of a man whilst in the earth, be wholly human... they overlook that Adam is created by thespirit and without the spirit we are all dead... al spirit whether manifesting good [or evil for a time] is of god and returns to God, is one with God ... but they will come to see God is never anything but ONE ...just takes time

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Thus we find Satan, a created being, will come to yield to Jesus and accept God's law of love [Revelation 5:13]

Satan as covering cherub [Ezek 28] has the face of a man in being cast into the earth , dies a [mortal] death for sin and repents in baptism of fire in the lake of fire... just as Logos as right-hand covering cherub, manifests as Jesus , dies a mortal death and is resurrected to flesh and bone , and is later translated to spirit ....

The problem of dogma [and language] is thus simply that folks forget that spirit must animate flesh to manifest in this world ... and that spirit is not subject to destruction or death , but is of God,one with God...

anyone moved by the spirit of truth of God is a son of God , all the saints for instance ... Satan too becomes son of God when he accepts Jesus as Jesus assures us he will ... thus the passage through being evil does not in any way signify that one cannot return to righteousness, indeed Jesus says all will do so...

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Thus, much as Paul killed many saints, we find Satan beheading saints for blasphemy when he believes he is god of man[2Thess 2:4] and they are wrong :-

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It makes no odds for the wicked are redeemed when they turn to righteousness - Ezek 18: 19-21- and Jesus says all creation will accept him as lord and thus turn to righteousness of love...

That leaves folks, who persecute others because they do not say God is three, in the position of disagreeing with God in many ways...

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.[ . . . ]

In chapter 3 this writer did not know what happened to a man's spirit when he died.

Ecc 3:21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"​

 

[interpreter]

God is not three persons. But it can well be argued that He is nine persons because there are 7 holy spirits (see Rev. 1:4 & 4:5).

 

[Der Alte]

God is not three persons. But it can well be argued that He is nine persons because there are 7 holy spirits (see Rev. 1:4 & 4:5).

Or we could actually read Revelation in context.

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.​

 

[stranger]

God is not three persons. But it can well be argued that He is nine persons because there are 7 holy spirits (see Rev. 1:4 & 4:5).

God is spirit, not a person ... the Holy spirit of God is God, not a person
at the right-hand of God stands a cherub which became the man Jesus filled with the holy spirit of God who showed us God ... at most I see one person so far , there are many begotten sons of God, all the saints , in total 144,000 sons of god begotten by the time of Jesus' return... however many persons it is not three
but again I ask why count anyway , and why stop at three when one is not even counting similar things and whatever one is counting there are mnay more than three of excepting God, who is ONE god , not three , with MANY sons and many spirits ....

Why count , I cannot guess ...
Why stop at three, I cannot imagine..
Why persecute those who say there are not exactly three 'somethings' of God , I'm afraid you do that you've truly lost all sense of meaning of your beliefs ... how is that love ?

 

[Harry3142]

Here are some passages which may help to lessen the confusion (or make the confusion worse):

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (I Corinthians 15:20-28,NIV)

He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (The Gospel of St. Matthew 12:30-32,NIV)

"God is Spirit, and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth." (The Gospel of St. John 4:24,NIV)

I myself believe that the words 'Father' and 'Son' denote titles. They are two different ways in which God has manifested himself to us. But when we refer to God as the Holy Spirit, we are no longer using a title. Instead, we are referring to the very essence of God's own being. That's why we have such a stern warning in regard to him, told us by Jesus Christ himself.

I Corinthians tells us that eventually the Son's (Jesus) work will be completed, and after that he will be 'made subject' to God. We are also told by Jesus himself that we are to use extreme caution when referring to the Holy Spirit. as well as his telling us that God is Spirit. I don't think that is coincidence.

I suspect that when the Son's work is done, he will be enfolded back into the essence of God. But it will not be the person we know as God the Father, because his work too will be ended. The person that the manifestations 'Father' and 'Son' will draw back into will be God the Holy Spirit. 'God the Father' and 'God the Son' are both the manifestations through which God the Holy Spirit has made himself known to us. But God the Holy Spirit is the very essence of God himself.

 

[stranger]

My point is that God is not a person at all, 'He' is spirit

God can manifest as a person, Jesus , by means of His spirit ,but there are no division of the spirit, God is still ONE spirit ... there is no two-ness about it , there are not two persons, but just one... and the person does not exist after Jesus is translated back to spirit ... so there simply never was any three-ness about God ... Jesus showed us God as one person, the saints show us God as 144,000 persons... but truly there is no three-ness , and spirit is not a person at all, it is spirit and separate, distinct , from the physicality of the person...

 

[Superfast]

does anybody find it strange that the question of this thread isn't "Is God one, or two or three? What number God really is, one, isn't even a part of the question.
Gee the bible says god is one, I wonder if that means he is two? How many is one? tough questions for most people., but childishly simple for me and those who know how much one is.

Here's the answer to the thread question folks.


NKJV) Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator does not [mediate] for one [only,] but God is one.

 

[Doveaman]

does anybody find it strange that the question of this thread isn't "Is God one, or two or three? What number God really is, one, isn't even a part of the question.
Gee the bible says god is one, I wonder if that means he is two? How many is one? tough questions for most people., but childishly simple for me and those who know how much one is.

Here's the answer to the thread question folks.

NKJV) Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator does not [mediate] for one [only,] but God is one.

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." - 1 John 5:7.

In heaven, there are three who are one.

 

[2ducklow]

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." - 1 John 5:7.

In heaven, there are three who are one.

3 is not one, and god never said 3 are/is one.

5.7–8μαρτυροῦντες, 8 τὸπνεῦμακαὶτὸὕδωρκαὶτὸαἷμα {A}

After μαρτυροῦντες the Textus Receptus adds the following: ἐντῷοὐρανῷ, ὁΠατήρ, ὁΛόγος, καὶτὸἍγιονΠνεῦμα· καὶοὗτοιοἱτρεῖςἔνεἰσι. (8) καὶτρεῖςεἰσινοἱμαρτυροῦντεςἐντῇγῇ. That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.​

(A) External Evidence. (1) The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript. The eight manuscripts are as follows:​

codex Montfortianus, dating from the early sixteenth century.​

61:​

a variant reading in a sixteenth century hand, added to the fourteenth-century codex Regius of Naples.​

88v.r.:​

a variant reading added to a tenth-century manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.​

221v.r.:​

a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Wolfenbüttel.​

429v.r.:​

a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Naples.​

636v.r.:​

a sixteenth-century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.​

918:​

an eighteenth-century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest, Rumania.​

2318:​

(2) The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.​

(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541–46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).​

The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently the gloss arose when the original passage was understood to symbolize the Trinity (through the mention of three witnesses: the Spirit, the water, and the blood), an interpretation that may have been written first as a marginal note that afterwards found its way into the text. In the fifth century the gloss was quoted by Latin Fathers in North Africa and Italy as part of the text of the Epistle, and from the sixth century onwards it is found more and more frequently in manuscripts of the Old Latin and of the Vulgate. In these various witnesses the wording of the passage differs in several particulars. (For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)​

(B) Internal Probabilities. (1) As regards transcriptional probability, if the passage were original, no good reason can be found to account for its omission, either accidentally or intentionally, by copyists of hundreds of Greek manuscripts, and by translators of ancient versions.​

(2) As regards intrinsic probability, the passage makes an awkward break in the sense.​

For the story of how the spurious words came to be included in the Textus Receptus, see any critical commentary on 1 John, or Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, pp. 101 f.; cf. also Ezra Abbot, “I. John v. 7 and Luther’s German Bible,” in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays (Boston, 1888), pp. 458–463.​

THE FIRST LETTER OF JOHN


And even if God had said 3 are one, he would have meant it the same sort of way he meant that Jesus and god are one. figuratively not literally. why? because the number 3 is not the number one. god says in his word that he is one, he never says that he is 3 or 2 or any other number besides one.

but I would like to thank you for pointing out that trinitarians do believe that 3 is one, they even tried to put it in 1 john 5.7. Manytimes trinitarians will deny that trinity teaches that 3 is one, inspite of this fact that they tried unsucessfully to put it in the bible. Trinity is 3 individuals are/is one individual, and no one says that and especially not God.

 

[Der Alte]

3 is not one, and god never said 3 are/is one.

The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently . . . rest of the blah, blah, blah omitted.
THE FIRST LETTER OF JOHN

And even if God had said 3 are one, he would have meant it the same sort of way he meant that Jesus and god are one. figuratively not literally. why? because the number 3 is not the number one. god says in his word that he is one, he never says that he is 3 or 2 or any other number besides one.

but I would like to thank you for pointing out that trinitarians do believe that 3 is one, they even tried to put it in 1 john 5.7. Manytimes trinitarians will deny that trinity teaches that 3 is one, inspite of this fact that they tried unsucessfully to put it in the bible.

1 John 5:7 quoted as scripture, 250 AD.

Cyprian 250 AD Treatise I On The Unity of the church.

The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one.” And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix | Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

And OBTW the passage does not say, "three is one." It reads "these three are one."

 

[stranger]

I'm not sure why anyone should care if sinners want to insist that three persons of God is one [person of ?] God ... God is quite clear that he si spirit and not a person, yet it is the spirit from god that animates every person to live and returns to God at death ... one spirit, many persons...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It is after all God that requires the delusion of sinners in this world :-
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

the saint explains the purpose [getting Satan to confess his blasphemy 2Thess 2:4 , which he will not do until almost all the world worships him Rev 13:3-4

So if they want to claim God is a person or three persons as one person, or whatever, why should anyone care ???

frankly I don't see it would matter if God were three persons , its only a matter of scriptural fact that He isn't , and sinners ignoremostof scripture in their diverse divided interpretations of it [of which at most one and possibly NONE can logcally be God's truth... that's billions of deluded religious folks PROVEN by logic ... to which scripture agrees - e.g. Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-4, Jude 1:14 etc, etc ...

so if we know from Jesus that the billions MUST be deceived before he returns then what's to argue about, one cannot get the deluded to accept scripture even if one puts their own versions of it under their noses and say look... hey cannot see because God requires them blinded in 'faith'in traditions of the divided [sinners]

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you?...

Do you get Paul's message about the founders of denominations, sects, etc ?

Blind leading the blind, not the holy spirit leading saints to know all truth, one truth for all saints , before they die[john 16:13

One should know Satan will rule this world iNCLUDING its religion [united in worship of the antichrist ,Satan in place of the son of God, not God] - e.g.Rev 13:3-4

it ain't rocket science to just count... there are but FEW saints following the strait narrow way in this world , Enoch says ten-thousands meaning tens of thousands [but one word in Hebrew] -Jude 1:14

Jesus is more precise , 144,000 , indicating an average of about two thousand saints alive at any one time... compare that to perhaps a billion sinner trinitarians, and one begins to get the logic of the falling away of religion required by Jesus ... so who thinks they can change that ???

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not sure why anyone should care if sinners want to insist that three persons of God is one [person of ?] God ... God is quite clear that he si spirit and not a person, yet it is the spirit from god that animates every person to live and returns to God at death ... one spirit, many persons...
[ . . . ]
It is after all God that requires the delusion of sinners in this world :-
[ . . . ]
the saint explains the purpose [getting Satan to confess his blasphemy 2Thess 2:4 , which he will not do until almost all the world worships him Rev 13:3-4

So if they want to claim God is a person or three persons as one person, or whatever, why should anyone care ???

frankly I don't see it would matter if God were three persons , its only a matter of scriptural fact that He isn't , and sinners ignoremostof scripture in their diverse divided interpretations of it [of which at most one and possibly NONE can logcally be God's truth... that's billions of deluded religious folks PROVEN by logic ... to which scripture agrees - e.g. Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-4, Jude 1:14 etc, etc ...

so if we know from Jesus that the billions MUST be deceived before he returns then what's to argue about, one cannot get the deluded to accept scripture even if one puts their own versions of it under their noses and say look... hey cannot see because God requires them blinded in 'faith'in traditions of the divided [sinners]
[ . . . ]
Do you get Paul's message about the founders of denominations, sects, etc ?

Blind leading the blind, not the holy spirit leading saints to know all truth, one truth for all saints , before they die[john 16:13

One should know Satan will rule this world iNCLUDING its religion [united in worship of the antichrist ,Satan in place of the son of God, not God] - e.g.Rev 13:3-4

it ain't rocket science to just count... there are but FEW saints following the strait narrow way in this world , Enoch says ten-thousands meaning tens of thousands [but one word in Hebrew] -Jude 1:14

Jesus is more precise , 144,000 , indicating an average of about two thousand saints alive at any one time... compare that to perhaps a billion sinner trinitarians, and one begins to get the logic of the falling away of religion required by Jesus ... so who thinks they can change that ???

Meaningless, unsupported accusations and twisted, out-of-context, scripture. More Waco barbecue and Guyana koolaid. Sounds just like Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, John Thomas, R.E. McAlister, Herbert Armstrong, and others, all of whom deceived their followers with the same accusations and out-of-context scriptures. If you can PROVE any of these accusations, I will be waiting. But I have heard it all before by the guys I just mentioned.

 

[interpreter]

Or we could actually read Revelation in context.

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.​

Or we could just say God is two persons. The word trinity is not found in the Bible, and for good reason.

 

[Der Alte]

Or we could just say God is two persons. The word trinity is not found in the Bible, and for good reason.

The word Bible is not found in the scriptures either. Is there a good reason for that as well? That is a logical fallacy, argument from silence. I can say, There is one God! The father is God but he is not the son or the holy spirit. The son is God but he is not the father or the holy spirit. The holy spirit is God but he is not the son or the father. There is one God. Or I can say "Trinity."

Too bad for your argument there is no credible, verifiable, historical evidence for anti-trinitarian churches until the late 19th century; JW, LDS, UU, OP, SDA, WWCG, kristadelfian, etc.