Is God out to get us?

[Maria Billingsley]

But do not only a remnant believe to this day?
How can the remnant have ended at the cross?
The Jews still persist in unbelief, do they not?

Paul's presentation of the rejection of the Jews is a justification of God's doing so, not a statement of its temporariness.
First of all, they were blinded because they shut their eyes and would not see, so in just judgment God blinded them so they could not see (11:7), a judgment that remains with them to this day.
Secondly, their rejection made it possible for the Gentiles to come in, because had the Jews received the gospel it would not have been taken to the Gentiles. The Jews refused the offer so the offer was made to the Gentiles (Luke 14:20-24).
Their rejection of the gospel hastened the gospel to the Gentile world (11:12) and the reconciliation of the world to himself (11:15).
Thirdly, their rejection is not final at this time, if they do not persist in unbelief (11:23) which to this day they do, right?

Yes, only a remnant of Jews believed in Israel. . .which is the pattern of all mankind.
For since the cross, when Jew and Gentile are without difference in Christ, still only a remnant of both Jews and Gentiles believe.
It seems that only a remnant of all mankind will be saved, of which the Jewish remnant was a pattern.

Judaism was a Theocracy. God ruled over them as King yet only a remnant remained faithful. When Christ died the inner sanctuary veil was torn in two. No longer did He dwell in a Temple , He would dwell in each beliver. After 70AD the temple was physically made desolate. Temple Judaism ceased. The remnant fulfilled their part and now we are under the New Covenant where all who are in the Body of Christ are Israel.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, I'm serious. How is "contempt" an antonym of "life"? At face value it doesn't seem to make much sense.

Ok..

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's the standard answer which doesn't hold water. IMHO
Where is the gospel message in creation?
Since when does acknowledgement of a creator equal salvation?

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's not possible. Billions have never heard.

"...God's eternal nature..." is not just the fact that he is eternal. They are, after all, without excuse.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Yes, I'm serious. How is "contempt" an antonym of "life"? At face value it doesn't seem to make much sense.

It basically means "disgraced".

 

[Guojing]

Obviously yes. Are you trying make a point?

There is no scripture that states that he will be grieved at the sheep and goat judgement.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Judaism was a Theocracy. God ruled over them as King yet only a remnant remained faithful. When Christ died the inner sanctuary veil was torn in two. No longer did He dwell in a Temple , He would dwell in each beliver. After 70AD the temple was physically made desolate. Temple Judaism ceased. The remnant fulfilled their part and now we are under the New Covenant where all who are in the Body of Christ are Israel.

Well, not exactly. During the time of the Kings it was not a theocracy, except in the fact that God's upperhand over their affairs was obvious. During the times of their captivities and occupations, it was a mess. At the time of Christ it was not a theocracy. It was a mess.

Fact is, the Spirit of God has always indwelt those in whom God placed him, regenerating them. There has only ever been one true Gospel. Only one way to the Father. And since Adam, we have always been dead, apart from this regenerating work of God. When he had his presence in the temple, it did not mean he was not within those he chose as his dwelling place.

His presence in the temple was a figure of things to come, to become understood, that already were. When the veil was rent it represented the fact that his people needed to now understand what the dwelling place of the presence of God is.

Acts, and other places make the fact of the new attendance of the Spirit only more obvious. That is, they do not mean he was altogether absent until Pentecost.

 

[Ceallaigh]

There is no scripture that states that he will be grieved at the sheep and goat judgement.

So then do you figure completely emotionless like a robot?

 

[Clare73]

That's not possible. Billions have never heard.

They won't be judged on the gospel.
They will be judged by their refusal to acknowledge God and glorify him with thanks (Romans 1:21).

 

[Ceallaigh]

It basically means "disgraced".

Of course. But how is disgrace the opposite of life? I'm not demanding an answer. I'm just curious.

 

[coffee4u]

I suppose many would say, "Yes, God is out to get us."
But what do they mean by "get us"?

Do they mean that God is watching for any slip up, so that he might punish us?
Or is God looking out for our best interest, that he might have us as his own?
Thus pursuing a positive relationship with his creation.

Many would combine these two aspects and claim a balanced view of "God's love and justice". The idea that he wants to have a positive relationship with us, but since we are "completely unworthy", he has no choice but to punish us. Thus blaming the victim for divine alienation and punishment. As if we should be accountable for the way in which he created us. Plan B treatment, since we messed up his plan A. Didn't see that one coming. Now what?

No, I don't believe God's original plan has been derailed by humankind, which he created in his own image. On the contrary. The intent is that all things will be restored. This story ends well.

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

God wants the best for us.
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Of course. But how is disgrace the opposite of life? I'm not demanding an answer. I'm just curious.

It is more like the condition we would be in after the day of judgment I suppose. The second death belongs to those who have been disgraced vs those who are not disgraced will not suffer the second death.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Well, not exactly. During the time of the Kings it was not a theocracy, except in the fact that God's upperhand over their affairs was obvious. During the times of their captivities and occupations, it was a mess. At the time of Christ it was not a theocracy. It was a mess.

Fact is, the Spirit of God has always indwelt those in whom God placed him, regenerating them. There has only ever been one true Gospel. Only one way to the Father. And since Adam, we have always been dead, apart from this regenerating work of God. When he had his presence in the temple, it did not mean he was not within those he chose as his dwelling place.

His presence in the temple was a figure of things to come, to become understood, that already were. When the veil was rent it represented the fact that his people needed to now understand what the dwelling place of the presence of God is.

Acts, and other places make the fact of the new attendance of the Spirit only more obvious. That is, they do not mean he was altogether absent until Pentecost.

Thanks for sharing. We have different theological views so we will see things a bit differently.
Blessings.

 

[Guojing]

So then do you figure completely emotionless like a robot?

You are of course free to insert whatever emotions Jesus can have, but there is really no point debating about that with others.

 

[Ceallaigh]

You are of course free to insert whatever emotions Jesus can have, but there is really no point debating about that with others.

Scripture is full of descriptions of the feelings and emotions of the Father and Son. So why couldn't that accumulated knowledge be applied in this instance?

 

[Andrewn]

I put myself in Paul's shoes for a moment to try and understand his type of teaching. Afterall Peter did say Paul was sometimes difficult to understand. As the Apostle appointed to the Gentiles, I am very sure he had to maneuver many concerns by Gentiles who questioned why most Jews rejected their Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The "partial blindness" answer is a great way to make them understand even if ultimately their stubbornness was really the reason.

You point an important issue and may agree that in Romand chapters 9-11 Paul is attributing behaviors of various people to God (e.g. hardening Pharaoh's heart), which Calvinists insist on taking literally but it is a rhetorical device often used in the OT.

In a similar manner, I don't think that God intentionally blinded some Jews for 40 years but that some Jews and Gentiles are blinded by their hardened hearts even today.

The Gospel was open to all in the first century as it is open to all today. Everyone has a choice to believe or not.

I agree.

 

[eleos1954]

I suppose many would say, "Yes, God is out to get us."
But what do they mean by "get us"?

Do they mean that God is watching for any slip up, so that he might punish us?
Or is God looking out for our best interest, that he might have us as his own?
Thus pursuing a positive relationship with his creation.

Many would combine these two aspects and claim a balanced view of "God's love and justice". The idea that he wants to have a positive relationship with us, but since we are "completely unworthy", he has no choice but to punish us. Thus blaming the victim for divine alienation and punishment. As if we should be accountable for the way in which he created us. Plan B treatment, since we messed up his plan A. Didn't see that one coming. Now what?

No, I don't believe God's original plan has been derailed by humankind, which he created in his own image. On the contrary. The intent is that all things will be restored. This story ends well.

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Sin has affected the natural world around us, which causes suffering.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

It's not over ;o) ... the story does end well ;o) and AMEN!!

 

[Fervent]

You point an important issue and may agree that in Romand chapters 9-11 Paul is attributing behaviors of various people to God (e.g. hardening Pharaoh's heart), which Calvinists insist on taking literally but it is a rhetorical device often used in the OT.

In a similar manner, I don't think that God intentionally blinded some Jews for 40 years but that some Jews and Gentiles are blinded by their hardened hearts even today.


I agree.

An important point is that God's "hardening" of Pharoah's heart likely wasn't about inclining Pharaoh to do something he didn't want to, it was about giving him the strength to not cave to the fear instilled from the signs he saw or to pressure from the people. Another way to put it would be that God fortified Pharoah's will. In the same way God didn't cause the Israelites to reject Him, but He did blind them so that when they saw the miracles Jesus was performing they would not turn to be healed simply out of their recognition of the miraculous.

 

[Sunshinee777]

No.
God is here to catch us when we are falling.

 

[Saint Steven]

"...God's eternal nature..." is not just the fact that he is eternal. They are, after all, without excuse.

It seems that we are projecting a doctrine onto the passage.
The phrase "without excuse" is in reference to what in context?

It doesn't make sense to claim they have rejected Christ. That's not what it says, and there is no logic in that claim.

The phrase "without excuse" is in reference to God being revealed in creation.

Based on this scripture we can only claim it means they are "without excuse" in understanding that there is a creator God. Is there salvation in that understanding? Or is there more to it than that?

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's the standard answer which doesn't hold water. IMHO
Where is the gospel message in creation?
Since when does acknowledgement of a creator equal salvation?

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's not possible. Billions have never heard.

 

[Saint Steven]

... There has only ever been one true Gospel. Only one way to the Father. ...

Well, not exactly... - lol

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.