Is God out to get us?

[Saint Steven]

It is more like the condition we would be in after the day of judgment I suppose. The second death belongs to those who have been disgraced vs those who are not disgraced will not suffer the second death.

Interesting that the word "disgrace" has the word "grace" in it. Hinting at an opposite as a dis-grace. (lack of grace, or opposite)

 

[Hmm]

Interesting that the word "disgrace" has the word "grace" in it. Hinting at an opposite as a dis-grace. (lack of grace, or opposite)

Great point. Grace is primary and is not defined in terms of it's opposite. Grace means "grace'" with all that that means - it does not mean "dis-wrathfulpunishment". Grace is real and is in a completely different ballgame than anything to do with punishment.

 

[Saint Steven]

Great point. Grace is primary and is not defined in terms of it's opposite. Grace means "grace'" with all that that means - it does not mean "dis-wrathfulpunishment". Grace is real and is in a completely different ballgame than anything to do with punishment.

That's good.
I was making a leap to a conclusion with my observation.
Let's look at the ACTUAL definition to see if it holds up.

disgrace
dĭs-grās′
noun

1. Loss of honor, respect, or reputation; shame.
2. The condition of being strongly and generally disapproved.
3. One that brings disfavor or discredit.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's good.
I was making a leap to a conclusion with my observation.
Let's look at the ACTUAL definition to see if it holds up.

disgrace
dĭs-grās′
noun

1. Loss of honor, respect, or reputation; shame.
2. The condition of being strongly and generally disapproved.
3. One that brings disfavor or discredit.

It looks like "disgrace" could mean "put to shame".

1. Romans 5:5
   And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
   
   
2. Romans 9:33
   As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
   
   
3. Romans 10:11
   As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
   
   
4. 1 Peter 2:6
   For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

 

[Saint Steven]

It looks like "disgrace" could mean "put to shame".

1. Romans 5:5
   And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
   
   
2. Romans 9:33
   As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
   
   
3. Romans 10:11
   As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
   
   
4. 1 Peter 2:6
   For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

I suppose the age of correction might put us to shame temporarily, depending on how it will be handled. The day when all secrets will be revealed. But the ultimate goal is healing and restoration.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That's good.
I was making a leap to a conclusion with my observation.
Let's look at the ACTUAL definition to see if it holds up.

disgrace
dĭs-grās′
noun

1. Loss of honor, respect, or reputation; shame.
2. The condition of being strongly and generally disapproved.
3. One that brings disfavor or discredit.

Maybe continue that leap and consider that people could fall from grace permanently?

 

[Clare73]

You point an important issue and may agree that in Romand chapters 9-11
Paul is attributing behaviors of various people to God (e.g. hardening Pharaoh's heart), which Calvinists insist on taking literally but it is a rhetorical device often used in the OT.

Imagine that! Taking God at his word. What a concept!
On what basis do you deny the plain words of the OT and the NT?
We are born condemned (Romans 5:18), are by nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3) with hardened hearts, unless God softens them.
All God has to do to "harden" a heart is leave it to its own sinful devices and not soften it.
He does no one any injustice by not softening their hearts, for he owes this to no enemy, which we are to him (Romans 5:10).

In a similar manner, I don't think that God intentionally blinded some Jews for 40 years but that some Jews and Gentiles are blinded by their hardened hearts even today.

The text (Romans 11:25) plainly states that, when they murdered the Lord of glory, God hardened their hearts, but for a remnant. And that hardening remains to this day.

Only a remnant of both Jews and Gentiles are believing the gospel and being saved. . .God's plan from before the foundations of the world.

 

[Saint Steven]

Maybe continue that leap and consider that people could fall from grace permanently?

To what end?
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of grace in the first place?

As if to say...
Grace: God's gift for those with the faith to receive it.
But don't mess up, or he will take it back.
Fortunately, he will provide it again for the repentant.
But eventually will have had enough. Then you're toast.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why not read the entire chapter of Romans 11? This is the only way to understand the"remnant" of Israel which also includes the grafted in Gentiles. This is sorely ignored which unfortunately leads to the theory of two Gospels, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.

I agree that there is only one gospel.
But the Jews are still special in their relationship to God being part of the original chosen nation of Israel.

The testimonies on this YouTube channel testify to that.
https://www.youtube.com/c/ONEFORISRAEL

 

[Guojing]

I agree that there is only one gospel.
But the Jews are still special in their relationship to God being part of the original chosen nation of Israel.

The testimonies on this YouTube channel testify to that.
https://www.youtube.com/c/ONEFORISRAEL

Romans 11:22-23, Paul explains that, there will be a time in the future where gentiles will be cut off.

That will be during the Tribulation period where God will once again be focused on the nation of Israel once again. The gospel that will be preached, during the Tribulation, will be the same gospel of the kingdom that was preached during Jesus first coming.

At the end, the nation of Israel will believe in that gospel, by acknowledging that Jesus is their promised Messiah, and they will be saved from their sins, because of that faith.

 

[public hermit]

Maybe continue that leap and consider that people could fall from grace permanently?

How can anyone lose something they could not grasp to begin with? If we could apprehend and hold grace, so that we could let go and lose it, it would no longer be grace but an object under our will and control? That is not God nor can it be God's grace. God's will, which is God's grace, is not ours to handle or even receive. It is simply done, and always done by God.

 

[Andrewn]

How can anyone lose something they could not grasp to begin with? If we could apprehend and hold grace, so that we could let go and lose it, it would no longer be grace but an object under our will and control? That is not God nor can it be God's grace. God's will, which is God's grace, is not ours to handle or even receive. It is simply done, and always done by God.

Why is not the majority of people in the world born again Christians?

1) Calvinists answer: because God gives his irresistible grace only to few people. But what about the rest? Does God hate most people in the world? Why did He create them? Are they a subspecies created to harass the elect?

2) The rest of Christians answer: because God has his prevenient grace available to everyone but people's free will resists God's grace. Is God's grace not strong enough? Can God show his love in a more attractive way?

Calvinism is obviously wrong.

The rest of Christians are probably correct. But there are still questions that we cannot answer.

 

[Saint Steven]

Romans 11:22-23, Paul explains that, there will be a time in the future where gentiles will be cut off.

That will be during the Tribulation period where God will once again be focused on the nation of Israel once again. The gospel that will be preached, during the Tribulation, will be the same gospel of the kingdom that was preached during Jesus first coming.

At the end, the nation of Israel will believe in that gospel, by acknowledging that Jesus is their promised Messiah, and they will be saved from their sins, because of that faith.

Hopefully you don't believe that all gentiles will be cut off. And that's not even what the text says. Seems to be a conditional warning to individual gentiles, not a severing of the whole group. The same gospel will apply to both.

Romans 11:22-23 NIV
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Guojing]

Hopefully you don't believe that all gentiles will be cut off. And that's not even what the text says. Seems to be a conditional warning to individual gentiles, not a severing of the whole group. The same gospel will apply to both.

Romans 11:22-23 NIV
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

When I say gentiles being cut off, I don't mean us gentiles in the flesh who are now in the Body of Christ.

What I am saying is that, if you follow Paul's argument in Romans 11, it is the fall of Israel that God is able to extend grace to all gentiles to enter the Body of Christ (Romans 11:11).

But gentiles who are still undecided should not delay, believe in the gospel given to Paul, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, for us and enter now.

Once the Tribulation begins for Israel, unbelieving gentiles, if they want to be saved, must then be saved thru the nation Israel.

That is what being "cut off" means. It is much harder to be saved during the Tribulation, than during this current period

 

[public hermit]

Why is not the majority of people in the world born again Christians

I don't think we can say God's grace is only operating in relation to those who are confessing Christians. Could we be more arrogant than that? Christians are given a vocation to proclaim God's good news through Jesus Christ. That's the only thing special about Christians. We get to show the world what will be by our lives and our proclamation. But this idea that only confessing Christians are receiving grace is absurd. If God willed, rocks could do the job we have been given, and as things look perhaps better than us.

If it were not for grace, which is simply God's will at work, nothing would exist. Existence is an act of divine grace. Being sustained in being is an act of divine grace. Being made ready for everlasting life in the divine presence is an act of divine grace. The EO tradition has a much better handle on grace than us in the west.

The same Word by which creation came into being is the same Word by which all things in heaven and earth are reconciled to God.

All human free-will resists grace. It's called sin. Even confessing Christians resist God's grace, unless they are sinless. But our resistance is futile. If it were up to human free will, no one would be saved. Free will is why human evil exists and has nothing to do with salvation. If Jesus had exercised his "free will" that some Christian value so highly, he would have sinned, too. Free will is not our friend.

Perhaps the reason we don't see more Christians in the world is because too many Christians think they're special. Instead of having humility and living the life, instead of letting go of the illusion of some autonomous self apart from God, we condemn and seperate what God is bringing together. Happily, in spite of ourselves, God cannot fail to succeed.

 

[Saint Steven]

... Free will is not our friend. ...

That is such an amazing statement. Wow.
Here's the rest of your quote, lest someone misinterpret this out of context.
Well worth another read in isolation.

"All human free-will resists grace. It's called sin. Even confessing Christians resist God's grace, unless they are sinless. But our resistance is futile. If it were up to human free will, no one would be saved. Free will is why human evil exists and has nothing to do with salvation. If Jesus had exercised his "free will" that some Christian value so highly, he would have sinned, too. Free will is not our friend." - @public hermit

 

[Clare73]

I agree that there is only one gospel.
But the Jews are still special in their relationship to God being part of the original chosen nation of Israel.

The testimonies on this YouTube channel testify to that.
https://www.youtube.com/c/ONEFORISRAEL

This view of yours, along with other others, is not in agreement with the NT.

The Jews are on the same footing with God as are the Gentiles. . .salvation is only by faith in Christ.
There is no difference in the NT between Jews and the rest of mankind (Galatians 3:28).

 

[Clare73]

Romans 11:22-23, Paul explains that, there will be a time in the future where gentiles will be cut off.

"Until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" does not mean the Gentiles are cut off.
"Until" does not always mean temporary or a change of things:

"so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ." (Philippians 1:10) Their purity and blamelessness isn't temporary, changing from that day forward.

Paul before Agrippa: ". . .I have had Gods help until this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike." (Acts 26:22) God's help wasn't temporary, changing from that day forward.

"for until the law was given sin was in the world." (Romans 5:13)
Sin wasn't temporary, changing from that day forward.

"We know that the whole creation has been groaning until the present time." (Romans 8:22)
Creation's groaning wasn't temporary, changing from that day forward.

"Until this very hour we are hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless." (1 Corinthians 4:11)
This abuse wasn't temporary, changing from that day forward.

That will be during the Tribulation period where God will once again be focused on the nation of Israel once again. The gospel that will be preached, during the Tribulation, will be the same gospel of the kingdom that was preached during Jesus first coming.

Except that is a false doctrine of man in disagreement with authoritative NT teaching.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

How can anyone lose something they could not grasp to begin with? If we could apprehend and hold grace, so that we could let go and lose it, it would no longer be grace but an object under our will and control? That is not God nor can it be God's grace. God's will, which is God's grace, is not ours to handle or even receive. It is simply done, and always done by God.

I am one who believes a Christian can apostisize after recieving the Holy Spirit, Grace. This is why we see this common thread run through the entire NewTestament, "stay the course and do not be decieved."

 

[renniks]

I suppose many would say, "Yes, God is out to get us."
But what do they mean by "get us"?

Do they mean that God is watching for any slip up, so that he might punish us?
Or is God looking out for our best interest, that he might have us as his own?
Thus pursuing a positive relationship with his creation.

Many would combine these two aspects and claim a balanced view of "God's love and justice". The idea that he wants to have a positive relationship with us, but since we are "completely unworthy", he has no choice but to punish us. Thus blaming the victim for divine alienation and punishment. As if we should be accountable for the way in which he created us. Plan B treatment, since we messed up his plan A. Didn't see that one coming. Now what?

No, I don't believe God's original plan has been derailed by humankind, which he created in his own image. On the contrary. The intent is that all things will be restored. This story ends well.

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

God is definitely out to get us.... into relationship with him.