Is God out to get us?

[Clare73]

From Romans 11:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved . . .

. . . Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Does this show that Israelites who were living at the time of the Lord (whom Jesus addressed in Mat 23:37-39) would be eternally destroyed or saved?

It looks like they would be temporally destroyed and eternally saved, no?

Context. . .a text without a context is a pretext.

Go back to Romans 9:6-8 and Romans 11:1-5 to understand "all Israel."

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Not sure.
It seems that the two groups (Jews/Gentiles) run parallel (two gospels?) until the end when they come together. The Jews (Israel) is in a different relationship with God, as a covenant people. They will receive Messiah Y'shua in the end. (as I understand it) Jesus is not the Messiah of the gentiles. Israel will look on "the one they have pierced..." - Zechariah 12:10

This is dual Covenant theology. A slippery slope brother. This is a John Hagee teaching.

 

[Clare73]

This is dual Covenant theology. A slippery slope brother.
This is a John Hagee teaching.

This is contradiction of NT teaching.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is dual Covenant theology. A slippery slope brother. This is a John Hagee teaching.

I thought it was common knowledge in Christianity that Jesus returns to Israel to rescue them in the Second Coming.

 

[Saint Steven]

So Christ preach through Noah in his day not necessarily in hell.

So where do you claim that Jesus was for three days?
(the heart of the earth = ???)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am addressing the attitude that some take when they claim that hell will be full of "God haters". (thus blaming the victim) When the reality is that if there is a "forever burning hell" as they claim, it will be full of countless billions that have not so much as heard the name of Jesus. How then can these people be "God haters"?

I think I have a different concept and definition about what constitutes "blaming the victim," but regardless of this, I see your point and I understand what you're getting at. Thanks again for clarifying your perspective on this. That helps me to understand your particular angle on all of this.

The typical apologetic to defend their position is in Romans chapter two, about the creation declaring the creator God. (leaving humankind with no excuse) But there is no gospel presentation to receive, or reject, in that.

Yeah, I've always spotted that problem: Paul states that there is some 'obvious' work in our existence that, by which, God reveals Himself to us so that all are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

But then, I notice too that Paul doesn't layout specifically and exactly which aspects of Reality are those that are supposed to be so pronounced to us that they are unmistakably recognized and obvious to every person who has ever lived.

So, if I've understood you correctly, I'd agree with you to some degree, and I'd say that all of this is an epistemological problem as well as a hermeneutical one that Christians can't just slide by on, especially when they assert an overly strong claim about ECT.

 

[Andrewn]

No. Only the remnant are saved.

Re Rom 11:

The remnant that believed in Christ in the 1st century or the remnant that believed throughout the ages?

It looks like the Apostle Paul is talking about their fullness / totality / pleroma. Is this the fulness of their remnant?

What does their acceptance mean? Acceptance of the remnant?

They will also receive mercy? Who are "they" the remnant?

It looks like he is talking about a future hope, no? If this hope is about a future generation, why would it be relevant to talk about to Jewish believers living in 1st century Rome?

12 If their trespass means riches for the world, and their impoverishment means riches for the nations, how much more will their fullness mean!

15 If their casting away, you see, means reconciliation for the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

30 For just as you were once disobedient to God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, 31 so they have now disbelieved as well, in order that, through the mercy which has come your way, they too may now receive mercy. 32 For God has shut up all people in disobedience, so that he may have mercy upon all.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yeah, I've always spotted that problem: Paul states that there is some 'obvious' work in our existence that, by which, God reveals Himself to us so that all are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

But then, I notice that Paul doesn't layout specifically and exactly which aspects of Reality are those that are supposed to be so pronounced to us that they are unmistakably recognized and obvious to every person who has ever lived.

So, if I've understood you correctly, I'd agree wit you to some degree, and I'd say that all of this is an epistemological problem as well as a hermeneutical one that Christians can't just slide by on, especially when they assert an overly strong claim about ECT.

Yes.
I'd say that many of the Evangelical apologetics are quite weak.

I should talk, right? - lol
I'm trying to defend UR from a biased text. A tall order.

Another one is the use of Hebrews 9:27 to mean that there is no salvation after this life. It doesn't say that at all.

 

[Andrewn]

Peter's antitype also includes the Spirit of Chist in Noah during his lifetime. Afterall the only place Noah is called a preacher of righteousness is in Peter. So Christ preach through Noah in his day not necessarily in hell.

I heard this theory before. It is not what Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants believed throughout the centuries. The Apostles' Creed says:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hades; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes.
I'd say that many of the Evangelical apologetics are quite weak.

Well, there are fault lines running through any human attempts to systematize biblical ideas; and there are limitations we all have in reaching ultimate conclusions on many issues for that matter.

Another one is the use of Hebrews 9:27 to mean that there is no salvation after this life. It doesn't say that at all.

... maybe, but I'd say it's open for discussion. I tend to land on the side that this life is the one time we get to respond to whatever amount of illumination it is that God provides each of us individually. But I'm not going to get into a debate about that here.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, there are fault lines running through any human attempts to systematize biblical ideas; and there are limitations we all have in reaching ultimate conclusions on many issues for that matter.

Good point.
That used to really bother me. Then I realized if the argument was a slam-dunk, then it wouldn't require faith to believe it. That was a very freeing realization for me.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Good point.
That used to really bother me. Then I realized if the argument was a slam-dunk, then it would require faith to believe it. That was a very freeing realization for me.

... or did you mean to say that if the argument was a slam-dunk, then it "wouldn't" require faith to believe it? Which way were you intending to go on this, Steven? I'm just wondering. (I know, typos happen to all of us...)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I thought it was common knowledge in Christianity that Jesus returns to Israel to rescue them in the Second Coming.

This is Dispensational Futurism frosted with Christian Zionism. If you feel like researching , seek out the other views of eschatology. Blessings.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So where do you claim that Jesus was for three days?
(the heart of the earth = ???)

I dont assume that hell is located in the heart of the earth. So I look at other scriptures that may give me an idea or a look into to Hebrewic idioms.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Re Rom 11:

The remnant that believed in Christ in the 1st century or the remnant that believed throughout the ages?

It looks like the Apostle Paul is talking about their fullness / totality / pleroma. Is this the fulness of their remnant?

What does their acceptance mean? Acceptance of the remnant?

They will also receive mercy? Who are "they" the remnant?

It looks like he is talking about a future hope, no? If this hope is about a future generation, why would it be relevant to talk about to Jewish believers living in 1st century Rome?

12 If their trespass means riches for the world, and their impoverishment means riches for the nations, how much more will their fullness mean!

15 If their casting away, you see, means reconciliation for the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

30 For just as you were once disobedient to God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, 31 so they have now disbelieved as well, in order that, through the mercy which has come your way, they too may now receive mercy. 32 For God has shut up all people in disobedience, so that he may have mercy upon all.

The remnant have always been sprinkled through the ages.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I heard this theory before. It is not what Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants believed throughout the centuries. The Apostles' Creed says:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hades; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

For the most part I agree but not Jesus Christ of Nazareth going to hell.
The Apostles Creed was not written by the Apostles and formulated 200 years later. It is also not written in scripture as a creed. Hades is a place for the dead not hell. Sheol is the Hebrew name.

 

[Saint Steven]

... or did you mean to say that if the argument was a slam-dunk, then it "wouldn't" require faith to believe it? Which way were you intending to go on this, Steven? I'm just wondering. (I know, typos happen to all of us...)

Yes, a typo. I meant "wouldn't". - lol
Corrected on original.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is Dispensational Futurism frosted with Christian Zionism. If you feel like researching , seek out the other views of eschatology. Blessings.

Should I call the other view antisemitism? - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

I dont assume that hell is located in the heart of the earth. So I look at other scriptures that may give me an idea or a look into to Hebrewic idioms.

The term "hell" refers to Hades/Sheol/the realm of the dead.
There are 29 references to "the realm of the dead" in the NIV translation.

Isaiah 14:9 NIV
The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

 

[Blade]

I went back and the ultimate glory is the theme for this whole chapter (Roam 8). As one said "the believer in his suffering is hemmed by glory. The suffering is so minor in comparison with the greatness of the glory that there is no real comparison." Does seem Satan is not talked about here.. all the earth came under the curse because man relinquished his God given dominion to Satan thus creation was made subject to pain and futility not willingly. Animal and all the rest did not sin but God subjected them in hope that man will learn that all sin exacts too great a price. So we wait for the completion of redemption.

There for me is one gospel. Christ sent believers that were Jewish to all of creation not just Gentiles but the whole world. Right now there is no way for anyone on this planet to get to the Father but through Jesus Christ. Ezek 20, 21 talk about allot about whats coming for Israel. If I lol missed it sorry ..