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Is God out to get us?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Oct 24, 2021.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I suppose many would say, "Yes, God is out to get us."
    But what do they mean by "get us"?

    Do they mean that God is watching for any slip up, so that he might punish us?
    Or is God looking out for our best interest, that he might have us as his own?
    Thus pursuing a positive relationship with his creation.

    Many would combine these two aspects and claim a balanced view of "God's love and justice". The idea that he wants to have a positive relationship with us, but since we are "completely unworthy", he has no choice but to punish us. Thus blaming the victim for divine alienation and punishment. As if we should be accountable for the way in which he created us. Plan B treatment, since we messed up his plan A. Didn't see that one coming. Now what?

    No, I don't believe God's original plan has been derailed by humankind, which he created in his own image. On the contrary. The intent is that all things will be restored. This story ends well.

    Romans 8:20-21
    For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
     
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  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    2 Corinthians 5:11-21 tells you clearly what God is doing today.

    11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

    12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

    13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

    14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

    15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

    16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
     
  3. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    God sure is out to get us, every last one redeemed to His image.

    The Hound of Heaven never misses, starting from the last and working back to the first.

    It's a real outrage for the 'firsts': the dutiful older brothers, the early-start day laborers, the rich men clothed in purple, and those who want to sell the spikenard for 'charitable purposes', amongst others.
     
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  4. Hmm

    Hmm I'm just this guy, you know

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    Yes, it ends in complete victory over sin and suffering. If there were still baddies around in an eternal hell, His victory would only be partial.
     
  5. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Steve...does this quote from Jesus Christ of Nazareth tell us that those who rejected Him will be restored? Or, will all know Him but not all will be with Him? Afterall, Christ lamented the rejection He received by His people. Seems counterintuitive since He will gather them regardless.What do you think ?

    37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
     
  6. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Sorry for intruding but this passage is a prophecy of Jerusalem's destruction that took place in 70 AD.
     
  7. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes the abomination of their rejection of Jesus Christ of Nazareth certainly resulted in the destruction of the Temple but it also cut them off from their God.
    Blessings.
     
  8. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Eccentric Eclectic Existentialist at work! Supporter

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    ... I'm not sure I can go with this "blame the victim" trope. Some of it I can see since I think humanity has been deceived by Satan in some sense, but I also think people on various levels have been complicit with this or that manifestation of diabolically inclined course of action within society...
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  9. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    What a leading title...."Have you stopped beating your wife?"
     
  10. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    From Romans 11:

    I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved . . .

    . . . Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    Does this show that Israelites who were living at the time of the Lord (whom Jesus addressed in Mat 23:37-39) would be eternally destroyed or saved?

    It looks like they would be temporally destroyed and eternally saved, no?
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Great question, thanks.
    I'm not an expert on the subject of Israel, but...
    Yes, I believe it does say that Israel will be restored.
    Jesus will save Israel when they give him the proper greeting.
    When they say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" - vs 39 in your quote above.

    We also have this to go by. "... all Israel will be saved." - vs 36 below.

    Romans 11:25-27
    I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”
     
  12. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No. Only the remnant are saved. As in the days of Noah, all were destroyed but a few who were found righteous. God has mercy for both Jew and Gentile. He is slow to anger and very patient as He wishes that all be saved through faith. Yet many deny and reject Him. There is only one Gospel not two. Giving Jews salvation after death is just not scriptural. Though I understand the verses you point out may sound like it, unfortunately, these verses are woefully misunderstood.
    Romans 11 must be read in its entirety in order to grasp what Paul is teaching.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I am addressing the attitude that some take when they claim that hell will be full of "God haters". (thus blaming the victim) When the reality is that if there is a "forever burning hell" as they claim, it will be full of countless billions that have not so much as heard the name of Jesus. How then can these people be "God haters"?

    The typical apologetic to defend their position is in Romans chapter two, about the creation declaring the creator God. (leaving humankind with no excuse) But there is no gospel presentation to receive, or reject, in that.
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Are you familiar with what is called the "Harrowing of Hell"?
    If it happened before, it can happen again.
    Where was Christ for three days before his resurrection?

    Matthew 12:40
    For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
    Answer: the realm of the dead

    1 Peter 3:18-20
    For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

    Ephesians 4:8-10
    This is why it says:
    “When he ascended on high,
    he took many captives
    and gave gifts to his people.”
    9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
    descended to the lower, earthly regions?
    10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
    higher than all the heavens,
    in order to fill the whole universe.)

    1 Peter 4:6
    For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

    Romans 14:9
    For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
     
  15. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why not read the entire chapter of Romans 11? This is the only way to understand the"remnant" of Israel which also includes the grafted in Gentiles. This is sorely ignored which unfortunately leads to the theory of two Gospels, one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles.
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    God is showing forth his goodness in the glorification of his Son, as Redeemer from our sentence to eternal death as the progeny of Adam who rebelled against his Creator and forfeited our inheritance, through his Son's atoning death for the sin of those who believe in and trust on him and his atoning sacrifice (Romans 3:25) for the remission of our sentence to eternal death.

    Looks like he's more out to help those who apply his remedy to their helpless condition.
     
  17. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    .
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Not sure.
    It seems that the two groups (Jews/Gentiles) run parallel (two gospels?) until the end when they come together. The Jews (Israel) is in a different relationship with God, as a covenant people. They will receive Messiah Y'shua in the end. (as I understand it) Jesus is not the Messiah of the gentiles. Israel will look on "the one they have pierced..." - Zechariah 12:10
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    The children of God are the sons of God, born of the Holy Spirit.

    Those not born of the Holy Spirit are the creatures of God.
     
  20. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not taking the entire passage into context would lead one to think that this points to UR . Going on with the passage Peter makes clear that the days of Noah is an antitype to the baptism and regeneration we experience as believers.
    Also noting that there is more than one view of Jesus Christ of Nazareth visiting hell and preaching to the dead. Peter's antitype also includes the Spirit of Chist in Noah during his lifetime. Afterall the only place Noah is called a preacher of righteousness is in Peter. So Christ preach through Noah in his day not necessarily in hell.
     
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