Is Genesis history?

[PrincetonGuy]

Augustine (354-430) considered that too much learning had been expended on the nature of the firmament.[10] "We may understand this name as given to indicate not it is motionless but that it is solid", he wrote.[10] Saint Basil (330-379) argued for a fluid firmament.[10] According to Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) the firmament had a "solid nature" and stood above a "region of fire, wherein all vapor must be consumed".[11]

The Copernican Revolution of the 16th century led to reconsideration of these matters. In 1554 John Calvin proposed interpreting the "firmament" as clouds.[12] "He who would learn astronomy and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere", wrote Calvin.[12] "As it became a theologian, [Moses] had to respect us rather than the stars", Calvin wrote. Such a doctrine of accommodation allowed Christians to accept the findings of science without rejecting the authority of scripture.[12][13]

Firmament - Wikipedia

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Second, Calvin held that inscripturation is necessary to avoid the errors inherent in oral transmission:[5]

For if we reflect how prone the human mind is to lapse into forgetfulness of God, how readily inclined to every kind of error, how bent every now and then on devising new and fictitious religions, it will be easy to understand how necessary it was to make such a depository of doctrine as would secure it from either perishing by the neglect, vanishing away amid the errors, or being corrupted by the presumptuous audacity of men.[6]


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This sounds awful familiar!

My question for Biblical scholars is, given the above, where would Jesus be in this spectrum between God's word reflecting ideas of a particular time (and maybe believing in a literal solid dome), versus the position of Jesus being fully omniscient, understanding the Word for all time, and believing that the firmament in actuality being clouds?

A fundamental teaching of Christianity—both Roman Catholic and Protestant—is that in His earthly ministry, Jesus was both perfectly divine and perfectly human. He had human blood, human bones, a human heart, and a human brain with all of the physical limitations of a human brain. Therefore, His knowledge was limited to the capacity of His brain. In His humanity, Jesus was a first century Jew who, like his neighbors, would have believed that the earth is flat and covered with a dome just like the Bible says in Genesis 1:6-8.

6. And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. (NRSV)

He would also have believed that the rest of Genesis 1-11 is an accurate, literal account of actual historical events. Therefore, when He referred to Adam in the first five chapters of Genesis, He was referring to what He believed to be an accurate, literal account—not realizing, in his humanity,—that the creation story was clothed in the cultural beliefs of the ancient Hebrews through whom God chose to give us that part of Scripture. However, the fact that all people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God is no less true—and it is no less true that Jesus died and shed His blood on the cross for our sins.

Our English word “gospel’ is a translation of the Greek noun εὐαγγέλιον which is found in the Greek New testament 76 times—and never in the context of Genesis 1-11. The cognate verb εὐαγγελίζω is found in the Greek New testament 54 times—and never in the context of Genesis 1-11. The bad news is that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (NRSV); the good news (the gospel) is that “they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. (NRSV)

It can be argued that the Apostle Paul had a very good education and would have known that the earth is spherical rather than flat, and yet in Romans 5: 12-19 he taught the doctrine of original sin and the gift of righteousness though Jesus Christ, naming Adam as a type of Christ. However, Paul was Jewish to core (“circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;” Philippians 3:5), and he may have therefore rejected as error the teaching that the earth is spherical, and believed Genesis 1:6-8 where it explicitly says “God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome.” That is, because of his very strong Jewish predisposition, Paul believed that Genesis 1-11 is an accurate account of historic events—a belief that is actually nullified by the fact that the earth is spherical rather than flat.

If Jesus knew that the earth is spherical, He also knew that the creation story in Genesis is NOT an accurate account of historic events. If Jesus did not know that the earth is spherical, He would have believed that the earth is flat and covered with a solid, supporting structure, that is, a dome!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Documentation supporting the translation, ‘dome.’

In the Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, we find an excellent article (Vol. III, pp. 568-569 [two lengthy columns of fine print per page] on the word רָקִיעַ. Of special importance is the following from the article,

The verb רָקַע, raká, means to expand by beating, whether by the hand, the foot, or any instrument. It is especially used, however, of beating out metals into thin plates (Exod. xxxix, 3, Numb. xvi, 39), and hence the substantive רַקֻּעַים “broad plates” of metal (Numb. 16:38). (The italics are theirs).​

Furthermore, the Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Brown, Driver, and Briggs published by Oxford University gives us the following meaning of word רָקִיעַ in Gen. 1:7, “the vault of heaven, or ‘firmament,’ regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting ‘waters’ above it.” (p. 956). Moreover, John Skinner, the late Principal and Professor of Old Testament Language and Literature at Westminster College, Cambridge, in his commentary on the Hebrew text of Genesis, writes,

6-8 Second Work: The Firmament.—The second fiat calls into existence a firmament, whose function is to divide the primeval waters into an upper and lower ocean, leaving a space between as the theater of further creative developments. The “firmament” is the dome of heaven, which to the ancients was no optical illusion, but a material structure, sometimes compared to an “upper chamber” (Ps. 104:12, Am 9:6) supported by “pillars” (Jb 26:11), and resembling in its surface a “molten mirror” (Jb 37:18). Above this are the heavenly waters, from which the rain descends through “windows” or “doors” (Gn 7:11, 8:2, 2 Ki 7:2, 19) opened and shut by God at His pleasure (Ps 78:23).​

For further and much more extensive proof that the word רָקִיעַ is correctly translated as “dome” rather than “expanse”, please see this article:

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu /bi/ted_hildebrandt/otesources/01-genesis/text/articles-books/seely-firmament-wtj.htm

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes, I watched this a while back with my wife. It was descent. There is actually a lot of evidence for a young Earth. Even the Bible implies it strongly, as well.

In language and written words in scripture, the Cosmos and earth is ancient and remade or altered. But (paid) creationist leaders try to get around this with lots of preaching.

Asah - Strong's Hebrew: 6213. עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish
Bara - Strong's Hebrew: 1254. בָּרָא (bara') -- choose

 

[SkyWriting]

Young Earth is just implied with a normal reading of the Bible.

That's result is from english being misleading and allowing for "Instant" creation.

Don't take my word for it. Why are the two words used for creation
not fast or quick or "poof"?

Asah - Strong's Hebrew: 6213. עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish
Bara - Strong's Hebrew: 1254. בָּרָא (bara') -- choose

 

[coffee4u]

That's result is from english being misleading and allowing for "Instant" creation.

Don't take my word for it. Why are the two words used for creation
not fast or quick or "poof"?

Asah - Strong's Hebrew: 6213. עָשָׂה (asah) -- accomplish
Bara - Strong's Hebrew: 1254. בָּרָא (bara') -- choose

Because creation wasn't fast, quick or done in a poof, that would be seconds.
6 days was God taking his time.

 

[SkyWriting]

Because creation wasn't fast, quick or done in a poof, that would be seconds. 6 days was God taking his time.

Some of that before the sun was created, so the "days" reference is not about how the earth turns in reference to the sun. On the first day, days hadn't yet been invented. It's possible that time didn't begin until the fall of man. Because "time" includes all forms of decay.

 

[coffee4u]

Some of that before the sun was created, so the "days" reference is not about how the earth turns in reference to the sun. On the first day, days hadn't yet been invented. It's possible that time didn't begin until the fall of man. Because "time" includes all forms of decay.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

6 days.

God himself is outside of time, but he created time for us so we could understand days, weeks, months and years. Scripture repeats each day with evening and morning and counts days and then repeats 6 days in Exodus because this is what God wants us to know, that from our perspective 6 days passed. It isn't yet for us to know what time bending things happened as God created. Instead we have his word which flies against what man would rather believe in-evolution and billions of years. Is his word enough to simply trust or do we look to science, our senses(Like Peter when he walked on water) or quibble over exact word meanings and try and reinterpret it.
God wanted us to know he took 6 days. The only reason not to believe scripture as plainly written is because of the influence of man.

 

[chad kincham]

The recession of the moon problem needs addressed by Old earth creationists.

The moon recedes further from the earth each year by a known amount.

Extrapolate backwards in time one billion years, and the moon’s orbit would be on the surface of the earth.

Obviously it could never orbit that close to the earth, but it proves the earth isn’t even one billion years old.

There are other natural clocks, like the sediment build up rate of rivers that shows less than ten thousand years of sediment has built up.

 

[chad kincham]

"So again, it isn't about a bunch of samples giving different results and disproving a method, because anyone can collect contaminated samples [or labs can contaminate samples by running multiple samples in the same machine without purging in between]. The question is when quality control and quality assurance is implemented, how do you address scenarios where the analytical results are identical?" -me in my prior post

View attachment 301270


Conspiracy! Conspiracy! The scientists are all teaming up around the world to destroy the Bible!

No . It's not a conspiracy, it's just science.

I'm just going to note that young earth creationists don't have an explanation for this. All they can really do is baselessly suggest that scientists are in some kind of a big conspiracy where scientists around the world, myself included (oddly enough and to my own surprise!), are somehow out here making up data for the sake of taking down the Bible (nevermind many of us being Christians ourselves). Sometimes I laugh but this really is what their counter argument is

Professor Gary E. Parker, ex evolutionist, exposed the radiometric dating game, and convergence.

Due to fractionation in magma chambers, where lead in the magma settles down into lower levels, when magma is released and becomes lava, the lava that becomes rock shows a big difference in age between the start of the flow, and the end of the flow.

A given magma flow is all the same lava, and all of it is the same age, but the radiometric dating age will vary widely between the beginning of the flow and the end of it.

They then start with the date they want it to have, then keep testing samples until they get one that shows the age they want, or an age they are willing to accept, and throw out the other dates.

Convergence occurs because they do the same thing with all the various dating methods, and only use the dates they want, throw out the rest, then use that as proof that radiometric dating is accurate.

And they also can take a sample of rock from the area of rock they found that tests to the date they will accept, and take that to different labs to “”confirm” the accuracy of radiometric dating

Here’s a university.edu website showing the many problems with radiometric dating, in great detail:

More Bad News for Radiometric Dating

 

[coffee4u]

The recession of the moon problem needs addressed by Old earth creationists.

The issue really isn't about receding moons, radiometric dating or anything else that man can come up with, the issue is lack of faith.

"Did God really say?" Gen 3
Nothing has changed.

 

[chad kincham]

The issue really isn't about receding moons, radiometric dating or anything else that man can come up with, the issue is lack of faith.

"Did God really say?" Gen 3
Nothing has changed.

I agree that theistic evolution, for example, is totally incompatible with the Genesis account.

If yiu believe Adam was the first person that existed, that he had no mother or father, or even a woman until God cloned Eve from his rib cells, so he “wouldn’t be ALONE” - that is totally incompatible with Adam and Eve arriving as a product of evolution with uncounted numbers of evolutionary progenitors existing first

 

[coffee4u]

I agree that theistic evolution, for example, is totally incompatible with the Genesis account.

If yiu believe Adam was the first person that existed, that he had no mother or father, or even a woman until God cloned Eve from his rib cells, so he “wouldn’t be ALONE” - that is totally incompatible with Adam and Eve arriving as a product of evolution with uncounted numbers of evolutionary progenitors existing first

Of course, there was no death before sin and this is completely opposite to evolution theory. The two cannot be married together.

 

[Job 33:6]

Like I said, no explanation, just conspiracy theories.

The recession of the moon problem needs addressed by Old earth creationists.
The moon recedes further from the earth each year by a known amount.
Extrapolate backwards in time one billion years, and the moon’s orbit would be on the surface of the earth.

The moon has been drifting away from Earth for 4.5 billion years. A stunning animation shows how far it has gone.

"The moon is moving away from Earth at a rate of 3.8 centimeters (1.5 inches) per year."

How Far Away Is the Moon? | NASA Space Place – NASA Science for Kids

"The Moon is an average of 238,855 miles away from Earth"

238,855 miles x 63,360 inches/1 mile = 15.13 billion inches.

15.13billion inches /1.5 inches per year = 10 billion years.

There are no mathematical issues here. If you assumed 1 billion year answer to your math, then you're doing something wrong. Given a constant rate of recession, there would be 10 billion years before the moon were to touch earth if we were to rewind time, not 1 billion.

In fairness, we know that the moons recession rate isn't constant, but we can play this game for a bit.

 

[SkyWriting]

A fundamental teaching of Christianity—both Roman Catholic and Protestant—is that in His earthly ministry, Jesus was both perfectly divine and perfectly human.

It's worth mentioning that there is no perfect human. To be a perfect human is to be human, have human failings, and to die. And Jesus was aging.

 

[SkyWriting]

Of course, there was no death before sin and this is completely opposite to evolution theory. The two cannot be married together.

There was no spiritual death before sin. God is only concerned about a mans soul.

 

[SkyWriting]

The recession of the moon problem needs addressed by Old earth creationists.

The Moon was is believed to have been formed from the collision of a mass with the earth which ripped off a chunk of the earth in the collision. The composition of the moon is somewhat similar to the earth, but not an identical match.

Even so, it's orbit is almost "Unnatural" and theorists have not been able to explain it's orbit or create models that reproduce the orbit.

 

[coffee4u]

There was no spiritual death before sin. God is only concerned about a mans soul.

There was no spiritual death and no physical death. Dying and returning to ash was part of the curse that humans and the world was now under due to Adam's sin.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

The curse was not simply how things were, it came about because Adam listened to his wife and ate the fruit that he was commanded not to eat.

 

[Abaxvahl]

There was no spiritual death and no physical death. Dying and returning to ash was part of the curse that humans and the world was now under due to Adam's sin.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

The curse was not simply how things were, it came about because Adam listened to his wife and ate the fruit that he was commanded not to eat.

Moreover, as Christ defeated death by death and this included physical death as well this shows that it was an enemy that got a hold over us before and through Him we are restored and even glorified beyond that point. God did not make death but death came into the world through sin (and this refers to any sort of death in anything which exists, creation was cursed with Adam, Romans 8 speaks of this and how it too will be restored).

 

[SkyWriting]

There was no spiritual death and no physical death. Dying and returning to ash was part of the curse that humans and the world was now under due to Adam's sin.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

The curse was not simply how things were, it came about because Adam listened to his wife and ate the fruit that he was commanded not to eat.

Animals did die before the fall and populated the earth.
As well as early man that was spiritually transformed to life.
Adam was transformed into a living soul by God who choose
to modify man into His own spiritual image. It was a big plan.

When God said "Let us make man into our image"
The root word is actually "Re-make".

 

[chad kincham]

Like I said, no explanation, just conspiracy theories.



The moon has been drifting away from Earth for 4.5 billion years. A stunning animation shows how far it has gone.

"The moon is moving away from Earth at a rate of 3.8 centimeters (1.5 inches) per year."

How Far Away Is the Moon? | NASA Space Place – NASA Science for Kids

"The Moon is an average of 238,855 miles away from Earth"

238,855 miles x 63,360 inches/1 mile = 15.13 billion inches.

15.13billion inches /1.5 inches per year = 10 billion years.

There are no mathematical issues here. If you assumed 1 billion year answer to your math, then you're doing something wrong. Given a constant rate of recession, there would be 10 billion years before the moon were to touch earth if we were to rewind time, not 1 billion.

Extrapolate backwards the 1.5 inches per year and the moon’s orbit would be on the surface of the earth.

They can spin facts, but not change facts.

The moon was supposed to be covered with deep dust, because of its claimed age, but astronauts found less than two inches.