Is freewill real or just something we invented it ?

[TedT]

“Our fall” meaning the fall of humanity, or something else? I’d enjoy reading what Bible verses you believe are in favour of a fall from grace pre earth.

When I write 'before the foundation of the world' I mean 'before the creation of the physical universe'. All of the creation of people in HIS image was before the creation of the physical universe', ie, it was a spirit world full of spirits....maybe the original Sheol.

We all accept that someone was alive and self and other aware before the creation of the physical universe because when GOD was using the story of the creation of the physical universe to school Job, HE claimed that the morning stars and all the sons of GOD witnessed that creation and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and ALL, (kol), the Sons of GOD shouted for joy?.

But there were people there who understood the meaning of what they were seeing and that it proved that YHWH was indeed their GOD. That they sang together implies that they understand music and if music, then mathematics and if math, then all the other mental disciplines not based upon physicality. It also implies that they had a telepathic language like GOD has now with HIS angels, spirits who work for HIM, angel being a job description not a race or type of being.

The word kol Strong's H3605 is also interesting: all, the whole of anything, totality, everything, etc. So instead of just some people being there witching the creation of the physical universe we have the strong possibility that indeed every created person was there, as this interpretation of the verse only bumps against our being created on earth theory, not the words themselves.

We know also that HIS elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Since I reject the Calvinist rendering of unconditional election, I suggest that there must have been a reason for the election of some and the non-election of others. I also think that faith had to have something to do with election and sin caused non-election.

Is there an indication anything like this is mentioned in scripture? Not if you accept the created on earth theology but once you see a possibility for our pre-conception existence then Col 1:23 offers possibilities: ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. The pertinent phrase: This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, has some interesting implications. Every creature under heaven is either hyperbole or it is the truth. But in any case, the words has been proclaimed is in the past tense, referring to a finished, completed, action, that is, the proclamation of the gospel of salvation to every person created has already happened.

Since these words imply the proclamation was finished going out to every creature, then we must accept that it went out before the creation of the world because it has not been fulfilled since that creation yet Paul says it was finished.

So who heard this proclamation of the gospel? Hearing the gospel implies responding to it by a choice to put your faith in it or to reject it. So we add all these things together and understand that the gospel may have been proclaimed to every person created in HIS image before the foundation, creation, of the physical universe and were asked to make a choice to accept it or to reject it. Part of this gospel would have been HIS declaring HIS intention to elect or chose everyone who put their faith in in HIM to be saved from all sin to become HIS heavenly Bride by the work of the Son while anyone who rejected this gospel would become eternally enslaved to the addictive power of evil rendering them eternally unfit to ever fulfill HIS purpose in our creation to be HIS Bride.

This must have happened before we saw the creation of the physical universe because once we saw this proof of HIS divinity and power no one not already addicted to evil would ever reject HIM or HIS gospel, knowing the reality of hell waited them. Therefore this decision to accept HIS gospel and become HIS elect or to reject this gospel and become HIS eternal enemies had to be by faith, an unproven hope that HE was telling us the truth or that HE was a liar and a false god. Thus our response to the gospel was the base for election and reprobation. The Satanic fall must have occured before the foundation of the world when we were elected and then after the earth was established, Satan and all sinners, elect and demonic, were flung into Sheol which is now in the centre of the earth and sown into the world as explained in the two part parable of the weeds in Matt 13.

 

[disciple Clint]

When I write 'before the foundation of the world' I mean 'before the creation of the physical universe'. All of the creation of people in HIS image was before the creation of the physical universe', ie, it was a spirit world full of spirits....maybe the original Sheol.

We all accept that someone was alive and self and other aware before the creation of the physical universe because when GOD was using the story of the creation of the physical universe to school Job, HE claimed that the morning stars and all the sons of GOD witnessed that creation and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and ALL, (kol), the Sons of GOD shouted for joy?.

But there were people there who understood the meaning of what they were seeing and that it proved that YHWH was indeed their GOD. That they sang together implies that they understand music and if music, then mathematics and if math, then all the other mental disciplines not based upon physicality. It also implies that they had a telepathic language like GOD has now with HIS angels, spirits who work for HIM, angel being a job description not a race or type of being.

The word kol Strong's H3605 is also interesting: all, the whole of anything, totality, everything, etc. So instead of just some people being there witching the creation of the physical universe we have the strong possibility that indeed every created person was there, as this interpretation of the verse only bumps against our being created on earth theory, not the words themselves.

We know also that HIS elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Since I reject the Calvinist rendering of unconditional election, I suggest that there must have been a reason for the election of some and the non-election of others. I also think that faith had to have something to do with election and sin caused non-election.

Is there an indication anything like this is mentioned in scripture? Not if you accept the created on earth theology but once you see a possibility for our pre-conception existence then Col 1:23 offers possibilities: ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. The pertinent phrase: This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, has some interesting implications. Every creature under heaven is either hyperbole or it is the truth. But in any case, the words has been proclaimed is in the past tense, referring to a finished, completed, action, that is, the proclamation of the gospel of salvation to every person created has already happened.

Since these words imply the proclamation was finished going out to every creature, then we must accept that it went out before the creation of the world because it has not been fulfilled since that creation yet Paul says it was finished.

So who heard this proclamation of the gospel? Hearing the gospel implies responding to it by a choice to put your faith in it or to reject it. So we add all these things together and understand that the gospel may have been proclaimed to every person created in HIS image before the foundation, creation, of the physical universe and were asked to make a choice to accept it or to reject it. Part of this gospel would have been HIS declaring HIS intention to elect or chose everyone who put their faith in in HIM to be saved from all sin to become HIS heavenly Bride by the work of the Son while anyone who rejected this gospel would become eternally enslaved to the addictive power of evil rendering them eternally unfit to ever fulfill HIS purpose in our creation to be HIS Bride.

This must have happened before we saw the creation of the physical universe because once we saw this proof of HIS divinity and power no one not already addicted to evil would ever reject HIM or HIS gospel, knowing the reality of hell waited them. Therefore this decision to accept HIS gospel and become HIS elect or to reject this gospel and become HIS eternal enemies had to be by faith, an unproven hope that HE was telling us the truth or that HE was a liar and a false god. Thus our response to the gospel was the base for election and reprobation. The Satanic fall must have occured before the foundation of the world when we were elected and then after the earth was established, Satan and all sinners, elect and demonic, were flung into Sheol which is now in the centre of the earth and sown into the world as explained in the two part parable of the weeds in Matt 13.

The Gospel was revealed to satan Adam and Eve Genesis 3:15 says, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” This is known as the protoevangelium—the first gospel. What is the protoevangelium? | GotQuestions.org

 

[TedT]

The Gospel was revealed to satan Adam and Eve Genesis 3:15 says, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” This is known as the protoevangelium—the first gospel.

I think that Paul suggested there was an earlier proclamation given to every creature under heaven as a completed and finished act...a proclamation we have not seen yet fulfilled on earth if we are created here but Paul says it happened in the past...Col 1:23.

I think that most of the garden story is interpreted wrong because of the commitment to our being created on earth theory.

 

[disciple Clint]

I think that Paul suggested there was an earlier proclamation given to every creature under heaven as a completed and finished act...a proclamation we have not seen yet fulfilled on earth if we are created here but Paul says it happened in the past...Col 1:23.

I think that most of the garden story is interpreted wrong because of the commitment to our being created on earth theory.

That is a unique interpretation of Col 1:23, can you find any support for it, is there any scholar who accepts it or any other Scripture that confirms it?

 

[TedT]

That is a unique interpretation of Col 1:23, can you find any support for it, is there any scholar who accepts it or any other Scripture that confirms it?

All the commentaries I found were written by those fully accepting the created on earth theory thereby rejecting our Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) from discussion. The interpretation of our being created on earth is 4000 years old, going all the way back to the rabbis studying what was written in Genesis.

But Christ says we are sown (planted) into the world, the people of the kingdom by Himself and the people of the evil one by the devil and since the devil cannot create, this sowing cannot be a creation, Matt 13:36-39. But every interpretation can be argued and an alternative found to support one's favorite theology so contrariness is no virtue at face value...a double edged sword.

PCE has been given no more serious thought than was given to the Divine Messiah before Christ so even though many in the pews believe it to be true, they have little or no theology for it to compare as their church ignores or belittles it.

I am content at this time knowing that this interpretation is true to the words as written and therefore the interpretation is a distinct possibility.

 

[disciple Clint]

All the commentaries I found were written by those fully accepting the created on earth theory thereby rejecting our Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) from discussion. The interpretation of our being created on earth is 4000 years old, going all the way back to the rabbis studying what was written in Genesis.

I am content at this time knowing that this interpretation is true to the words as written and therefore the interpretation is a distinct possibility.

But Christ says we are sown (planted) into the world, the people of the kingdom by Himself and the people of the evil one by the devil and since the devil cannot create, this sowing cannot be a creation, Matt 13:36-39. But every interpretation can be argued and an alternative found to support one's favorite theology so contrariness is no virtue at face value...a double edged sword.

PCE has been given no more serious thought than was given to the Divine Messiah before Christ so even though many in the pews believe it to be true, they have little or no theology for it to compare as their church ignores or belittles it.

I am content at this time knowing that this interpretation is true to the words as written and therefore the interpretation is a distinct possibility.

And yet you are unable to find any evidence for it? Why do you accept something that is not endorsed in the commentaries and that you are unable to find evidence to confirm? Do you not think that in the thousands of years since the Bible was written someone would have expressed and supported your concept?

 

[TedT]

And yet you are unable to find any evidence for it?

I find an abundance of evidence for this theory, all in the bible...literally dozens of verses. But the strongest evidence for me is that I was led by the Spirit who brought me to repentance and conversion to look into this theology and to judge it. I did so and found orthodoxy wanting...

[Aside:
But even if there were no evidence, the idea that no evidence proves the idea can't be true is a logical fallacy called the black swan fallacy.]

Do you not think that in the thousands of years since the Bible was written someone would have expressed and supported your concept?

Firstly, it is not my concept. I was taught it by others.

Secondly, Origen (c.184 – c.253) championed our pre-conception existence because of a few verses while I have dozens, so it is not useful to pretend that this is a hidden, made up doctrine with no evidence. His Christology was horrendous and his soteriology was optimistic but he was a prolific writer creating the first systematic theology of Christianity. His writings were declared heretical as much for political reasons as for bad theology...c.543, 553.

The problem with the commentators is that their commitment to our being created on earth has them to automatically disregard PCE contentions and to only look at counter interpretations and we all know every doctrine can be dismissed. One attitude seem to be their pitfall, that is, giving the theology only a cursory, superficial, look, ie, not taking the time to actually understand its contentions and especially its implications.

 

[disciple Clint]

I find an abundance of evidence for this theory, all in the bible...literally dozens of verses. But the strongest evidence for me is that I was led by the Spirit who brought me to repentance and conversion to look into this theology and to judge it. I did so and found orthodoxy wanting...

[Aside:
But even if there were no evidence, the idea that no evidence proves the idea can't be true is a logical fallacy called the black swan fallacy.]


Firstly, it is not my concept. I was taught it by others.

Secondly, Origen (c.184 – c.253) championed our pre-conception existence because of a few verses while I have dozens, so it is not useful to pretend that this is a hidden, made up doctrine with no evidence. His Christology was horrendous and his soteriology was optimistic but he was a prolific writer creating the first systematic theology of Christianity. His writings were declared heretical as much for political reasons as for bad theology...c.543, 553.

The problem with the commentators is that their commitment to our being created on earth has them to automatically disregard PCE contentions and to only look at counter interpretations and we all know every doctrine can be dismissed. One attitude seem to be their pitfall, that is, giving the theology only a cursory, superficial, look, ie, not taking the time to actually understand its contentions and especially its implications.

As I said you can believe anything you like, you might want to consider that God will hold people responsible for any false teaching they promote. So if there is any doubt in your mind, please be cautious. Bible Verses About False Teachers

 

[Jipsah]

I am going to cut right to the chase, God gave man free will, how man uses that gift will determine his joy, happiness, and future.

How free is our will? What are the constraints?

 

[grumix8]

It depends of the consciousness how we interect that we exist therefore we are and we need therefore we exist. ;D

 

[disciple Clint]

How free is our will? What are the constraints?

A Beginner’s Guide to ‘Free Will’