Is freewill real or just something we invented it ?

[atpollard]

Which is a well known false rendering. God doesn’t create “evil,” the translators simply bungled that word and every modern committee knows it. The correct translation is calamity, notice it’s supposed to be in contrast to peace, the opposite of peace isn’t evil. God brings calamity upon wicked cities for example.

I agree.
However, the verse still says that GOD DOES IT and it does not lay the blame for all of the complexities of life at the feet of MAN'S FREE WILL (which was the point that both quoted verses were refuting).

Technically, it is NOT a "false rendering". Rather, the meaning of "evil" has changed since the 1600's. One might have once spoken of an "evil odor" or "evil fortune" having nothing to do with satanic forces, but simply meaning corrupt, spoiled or bad. It was later replaced by "ill" (having nothing to do with sickness, but just meaning "bad").

 

[John Mullally]

I agree.
However, the verse still says that GOD DOES IT and it does not lay the blame for all of the complexities of life at the feet of MAN'S FREE WILL (which was the point that both quoted verses were refuting)

When God was preparing to judge Nineveh, he sent an unwilling Jonah to preach judgement there. The judgement was based upon Nineveh's wickedness - not God's will for the city. Nineveh was spared because through their free will the whole city repented of their wickedness.

If God's Will was being done perfectly on Earth, we would be experiencing Heaven on Earth. The vanilla statement "Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" is itself God's Will. Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that was not God's Will and "be" is the present tense. There is no sin or sickness in Heaven.

 

[Cormack]

I agree.

Then there’s no need to continue to use an inaccurate, misleading translation that has the poor form of stating God is the cause of something He explicitly distances Himself from (1 thessalonians 4:3.)

For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.
​

1 John 2:16

For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.
​

That’s the stated will of God, not the secret will that exists in the mind of western theologians.

Just like in the case of 1 Corinthians 10:12-14 God doesn’t want Christians to sin, so He commands against it and provides a way of escape every single time we are tempted to sin.

For posters who believe God decreed sins like fornication or “created evil” as a part of his inscrutable secret council, decreeing them in secret while telling humanity to their face not to sin, you’re deep in the grips of a man made philosophy.

 

[John Mullally]

For posters who believe God decreed sins like fornication or “created evil” as a part of his inscrutable secret council, decreeing them in secret while telling humanity to their face not to sin, you’re deep in the grips of a man made philosophy.

Powerful

 

[grumix8]

no no no this went somewhere else G-d created the dark and light he's the creator of all but it belongs to him. We worship him but we do not judge him for we have no right and have no authority, the only authority is him. We judge humans and humans judge each other and their still in error. G-d created nebulas, blackholes, and beings in the universe and his logic and judgement is above us all if we see planets exploding and new stars forming in the universe.

Life continues like Jurrasic park where all dinosaurs are females and cannot procreate. Still the structure life G-d created made it possible for eggs to hatch and defied all science. I know Jurrasic park was A book but still you cannot beat life something G-d created but still there are other things in the universe exist that is balance and gives us love and life. G-d uses not only darkness but other unspeaking powers he has and logics he has.

And still of it is for A purpose He make life and death and all of it is part of the plan of G-d.

 

[Cormack]

Powerful

Yet reason, scripture and common sense are nothing compared to the private spirit of truth that confirms the philosophy of some people present in the chat.

Their philosophy is the mystery of God, so to challenge their philosophy is to challenge God himself, making a god of their philosophy.

You and I are mere second class citizens in the Kingdom next to their glorious secret knowledge, approved by Gods private testimony (a testimony that differs amidst Christians who supposedly have the same spirit.....)

 

[disciple Clint]

[Genesis 50:20 NKJV] 20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

The word evil is not the correct translation see these examples:
New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

 

[atpollard]

The word evil is not the correct translation see these examples:
New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

... More straining at gnats. [sigh]

YOU SAID:
One more time from the top:

My thought would be that all these problems were caused by man and not by God.

• emphasis on "caused by man" and "not caused by God"

TO WHICH I REPLIED:

[Genesis 50:20 NKJV] 20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive.

[Isaiah 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

• Genesis 50 claims that the evil actions of the brothers of Joseph, were MEANT FOR GOOD (as in actions intended as part of God's plan) BY GOD! Note the emphasis that contrary to your opinion, it was GOD and not MAN that was driving events.
• Isaiah 45, setting aside the gnat of the correct translation of a single word, is also about the fact that "I the LORD do all these things" which means that "all things" are not the result of Man's action with God looking on helplessly wishing that people would just obey Him.

ANOTHER KJV HATER JUMPED ALL OVER THAT TRANSLATION AS WELL, AND I EXPLAINED THE RENDERING OF THE WORD AS "EVIL" WAS NOT AN ERROR:

Technically, it is NOT a "false rendering". Rather, the meaning of "evil" has changed since the 1600's. One might have once spoken of an "evil odor" or "evil fortune" having nothing to do with satanic forces, but simply meaning corrupt, spoiled or bad. It was later replaced by "ill" (having nothing to do with sickness, but just meaning "bad").

In conclusion, you are correct that there are more accurate renderings of the verse in Modern English. However a more accurate rendering only makes my case even stronger. The scripture deliberately presents pairs of opposites and concludes with a bold exclamation that God is in control of all of them. The use of opposites is a literary device to "bookend" a category and imply "and everything in between". Thus the whole point of the verse is God is in control of ALL THINGS!

There can be no clearer refutation of "My thought would be that all these problems were caused by man and not by God" than that.

 

[Cormack]

ANOTHER KJV HATER

Oh pshaw. Nobody is hating on the KJV, pointing out an error in translating that implicates God in the creation of evil isn’t “hating” or being a “hater,” it’s holding people and translations accountable. Pressing the hate button in all caps is so gay rights.

It’s better to strain at a gnat than swallow an error, my friend. Your “gnat” actually has huge implications on the nature of God and how He interacts with creation, recasting your mishandling of scripture as a gnat is all about protecting the fragile ego.

God is in control of ALL THINGS!

That’s just another assertion of timid Calvinism. You can see throughout the topic uses of scripture that argue successfully for God giving Christians alternatives to sin which we choose not to indulge in, in addition to several things coming not from God but rather from the world (e.g. lust of the eyes, the pride of life.)

God commands Christians not in indulge in idolatry and fornication, providing an escape route upon every single occasion where we fail and give into the temptation, in short, Gods commands are clear and His means of escape more than empty promises.

 

[atpollard]

Oh pshaw. Nobody is hating on the KJV, pointing out an error in translating that implicates God in the creation of evil isn’t “hating” or being a “hater,” it’s holding people and translations accountable.

It is still not an error (see post #41).
Get a better dictionary if you are going to read translations from the 1600's.
That is YOUR problem and not a flaw with 1600's English.

That’s just another assertion of timid Calvinism.

Reject Isaiah 50 if it pleases you to do so. It says what it says and THAT has nothing to do with "Calvinism".

So you believe that God was not in control when Joseph's brother's sold him into slavery. You have a right to hold a wrong opinion.

God bless you and keep you ... far away from me.

 

[Cormack]

It is still not an error (see post #41).

mmhmm, I ignored the details of post 41 because it doesn’t add anything to the conversation. It’s not a point worth refuting since you conceded right from the jump by writing “I agree.”

Evil, bad and wicked etc are words with a history and can be used in a variety of ways, which goes to show nothing of how the word’s being used in your quotation from Isaiah. While everyone in the topic (including you!) agreed that the word in past, present and future usage connotes moral evil and would be better replaced by words like disaster, catastrophe or calamity. See you agree but can’t let go of the point.

Reject Isaiah 50 if it pleases you to do so.

So you believe that God was not in control when Joseph's brother's sold him into slavery.

I haven’t rejected any scripture or shared any opinions on the story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers. You’re jumping to conclusions like how you jump to poorly translated verses.

God bless you and keep you ... far away from me.

We can only hope that the Lord will insulate and protect you from being triggered further. All those haters out there causing you upset.

You can see throughout the topic uses of scripture that argue successfully for God giving Christians alternatives to sin which we choose not to indulge in, in addition to several things coming not from God but rather from the world (e.g. lust of the eyes, the pride of life.)

God commands Christians not in indulge in idolatry and fornication, providing an escape route upon every single occasion where we fail and give into the temptation, in short, Gods commands are clear and His means of escape more than empty promises.

Then there’s no need to continue to use an inaccurate, misleading translation that has the poor form of stating God is the cause of something He explicitly distances Himself from (1 thessalonians 4:3.)

For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.
1 John 2:16

For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.
That’s the stated will of God, not the secret will that exists in the mind of western theologians.

Just like in the case of 1 Corinthians 10:12-14 God doesn’t want Christians to sin, so He commands against it and provides a way of escape every single time we are tempted to sin.

For posters who believe God decreed sins like fornication or “created evil” as a part of his inscrutable secret council, decreeing them in secret while telling humanity to their face not to sin, you’re deep in the grips of a man made philosophy.

Scripture you’ve ignored ^^^

 

[chad kincham]

Many words of opinion, but not a single verse presented and exegeted to support it.

Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:


Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[disciple Clint]

... More straining at gnats. [sigh]

YOU SAID:
One more time from the top:

• emphasis on "caused by man" and "not caused by God"

TO WHICH I REPLIED:

• Genesis 50 claims that the evil actions of the brothers of Joseph, were MEANT FOR GOOD (as in actions intended as part of God's plan) BY GOD! Note the emphasis that contrary to your opinion, it was GOD and not MAN that was driving events.
• Isaiah 45, setting aside the gnat of the correct translation of a single word, is also about the fact that "I the LORD do all these things" which means that "all things" are not the result of Man's action with God looking on helplessly wishing that people would just obey Him.

ANOTHER KJV HATER JUMPED ALL OVER THAT TRANSLATION AS WELL, AND I EXPLAINED THE RENDERING OF THE WORD AS "EVIL" WAS NOT AN ERROR:


In conclusion, you are correct that there are more accurate renderings of the verse in Modern English. However a more accurate rendering only makes my case even stronger. The scripture deliberately presents pairs of opposites and concludes with a bold exclamation that God is in control of all of them. The use of opposites is a literary device to "bookend" a category and imply "and everything in between". Thus the whole point of the verse is God is in control of ALL THINGS!

There can be no clearer refutation of "My thought would be that all these problems were caused by man and not by God" than that.

God is sovereign there is no question about that but that does not mean that God is responsible for the evil that man does. God can and has turned to things that man intended for evil into good. Man has free will God does not interfere with that free will but God has ways of achieving His goals. It should have been a tip off that the verse in your Bible was incorrect because God is not evil and does not cause evil, He allows it because He is just. We need to always keep in mind the character of God and that God is love.

 

[atpollard]

Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.

This is easily seen to be false.
Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.
They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4
Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:
Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.
Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!

This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.

[Romans 9:6] "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;"

Paul already anticipated your objection to God's sovereign plan and responded to it.

 

[atpollard]

Scripture you’ve ignored ^^^

Unrelated to the discussion on Joseph's brothers that I was having and YOU jumped into the middle of. Imagine that, I didn't chase after your bunny trail. Who could have thought it possible?

finis autem praecepti est caritas de corde puro et conscientia bona et fide non ficta a quibus quidam aberrantes conversi sunt in vaniloquium volentes esse legis doctores non intellegentes neque quae loquuntur neque de quibus adfirmant

finis.​

 

[atpollard]

God is sovereign there is no question about that but that does not mean that God is responsible for the evil that man does. God can and has turned to things that man intended for evil into good. Man has free will God does not interfere with that free will but God has ways of achieving His goals. It should have been a tip off that the verse in your Bible was incorrect because God is not evil and does not cause evil, He allows it because He is just. We need to always keep in mind the character of God and that God is love.

You are so caught up in the word "EVIL" ... forget about that word.

Here:
Isaiah 45:7

• [NLT] 7 I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

According to GOD (can we accept that God is a reliable witness?):

1. God makes the DARKNESS.
2. God sends the BAD TIMES.
3. The LORD DOES ALL THESE THINGS!

So please stop correcting me about 17th century English and the best translation for the Hebrew word (רָע), and READ what the heck the verse is actually saying!

The claim made by you and others is that life is "good and easy" with all "bad and complexity" coming from man.

• What does it mean when God says in Isaiah 45:7 that He makes DARKNESS?
• How does that TRUTH apply to Joseph and his brothers?
• How does that TRUTH apply to Job?
• How does that TRUTH apply to US?

• What does it mean when God says in Isaiah 45:7 that He makes BAD TIMES?
• How does that TRUTH apply to Joseph and his brothers?
• How does that TRUTH apply to Job?
• How does that TRUTH apply to US?

 

[atpollard]

For posters who believe God decreed sins like fornication or “created evil” as a part of his inscrutable secret council, decreeing them in secret while telling humanity to their face not to sin, you’re deep in the grips of a man made philosophy.

Powerful

... a "powerful" delusion [2 Thessalonians 2:11].
Causing them, like Don Quixote, to battle windmills in order to slay monsters that exist only in their imaginations.

 

[atpollard]

There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.

Tell me about "original Sin" and "Adam and the Curse" and "how men are born"?
If you really want to explain it to me, then you will need to start with the will of man. The free will that we are born with and what scripture says about it and what reality says about it.

Without that common starting point, we are likely to just talk past one another.

 

[TedT]

God is sovereign there is no question about that but that does not mean that God is responsible for the evil that man does.

Please consider:
IF by any means, by any system, HE creates sinful people, sinners by no free will decision of their own, then HE is responsible for their evil.

If as pre-conception existence theology suggests HE created everyone in HIS image with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and in the Son as the only saviour from all sin OR to decide by faith to reject YHWH as a liar and a false god, (the unforgivable sin), repudiating the need for a saviour or even the concept of sin...then and only then is HE not responsible for the choices made by HIS creation.

Death proves sin.
The death of embryos proves their sin.
Only sinners are born as human.
Only sinners die.

 

[disciple Clint]

You are so caught up in the word "EVIL" ... forget about that word.

Here:
Isaiah 45:7

• [NLT] 7 I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

According to GOD (can we accept that God is a reliable witness?):

1. God makes the DARKNESS.
2. God sends the BAD TIMES.
3. The LORD DOES ALL THESE THINGS!

So please stop correcting me about 17th century English and the best translation for the Hebrew word (רָע), and READ what the heck the verse is actually saying!

The claim made by you and others is that life is "good and easy" with all "bad and complexity" coming from man.

• What does it mean when God says in Isaiah 45:7 that He makes DARKNESS?
• How does that TRUTH apply to Joseph and his brothers?
• How does that TRUTH apply to Job?
• How does that TRUTH apply to US?

• What does it mean when God says in Isaiah 45:7 that He makes BAD TIMES?
• How does that TRUTH apply to Joseph and his brothers?
• How does that TRUTH apply to Job?
• How does that TRUTH apply to US?

OK I will restate it this way: Man is responsible because , were it not for the misuse of man's free will God would not need to correct man and respond with:

1. God makes the DARKNESS.
2. God sends the BAD TIMES.
3. The LORD DOES ALL THESE THINGS!