Is following the 10 commandments required for salvation?

[DeaconDean]

He said that the laws were based on love. Love for God and love for your neighbor as yourself. He didn't repeal the 10 commandments. That would be stupid being they concern showing love for God and love for one's neighbor.

He filled full the ceremonial law so that he as the last sacrifice for the sins of the world.
People try to rewrite Jesus ministry to their own liking and they're wrong every time.

Read Deut. 4, it clearly tells us that both the Decalogue and the Law were a covenant.

And Hebrews clearly tells us we're under a "new covenant".

If you don't believe what is recorded in scripture, then I don't know what else to tell or show you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I was specifically talking about this verse in the post you responded to. Furthermore, God has never given a system of works, but only a system of faith and love. God's law is instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) in accordance with His character, so they can not be done away with unless God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness are first done away with. As part of the New Covenant, we are still told to follow God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 Peter 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).



You must have a pretty low opinion of God to think that He would save the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt only to put them back under bondage to His law and that throughout the Bible He was calling them from their freedom to sin and do what is right in their own eyes back to the bondage of doing what is holy, righteous, and good in obedience to His ways. Rather, as Galatians 5:1 states, it is for freedom that God sets us free, and God's law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25), while it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage. It can't be disobedience and obedience to the law as it was intended that both put us in bondage. However, God's law can be perverted into a system of works that are about what we need to do in order to become justified, which would be living in just as much bondage as living in disobedience to the law. There is a world of difference between Paul saying that obeying God's law for the purpose of becoming justified is bondage and saying that obeying God's law is bondage. It is like hearing someone speaking against using a car to drive on the bottom of a lake and you concluding that they are against driving cars on roads.



Galatians 5:16-23 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

It does not make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as saying that if we are under the Spirit that we aren't under the Mosaic law because the law being talked about is one that is against God, not one that was given by God. I mean, are you suggesting that when God gave the Mosaic law that He gave a law that was against His Spirit? Rather, the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Everything that was listed as being works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against what the Mosaic law teaches and everything that was listed as being fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with what the Mosaic law teaches, which should come as no surprise because the Mosaic law was commanded by God and the Spirit is God. Rather, if we are led by the Spirit, then we are not under the law of sin, which is the same thing that Paul was saying in Romans:

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

It is not the Mosaic law where sin had dominion over us, but rather it was the law of sin. In Romans 7:12-23, Paul said that the Mosaic law is holy, righteous, and good, that it was the good he sought to do and delighted in doing, but contrasted that with a law of sin that was working within him to stir up sin and to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, so the Mosaic law is the opposite of the law of sin.



Everyone since Moses who has acted in love toward their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law. Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so love fulfills the law because that is what it is essentially about how to do. All of the 613 commands in the OT and 1,050 commands in the NT are examples of how to correctly obey the greatest two commandments, so if you say all we need to do is follow God's command to love, so we don't need to follow His commands for how He wants us to love, then you are missing the point.



There is a theme throughout the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, and it should be extremely obvious that followers of God should follow God's commands, so Acts 15 should not be misunderstood as speaking against Gentiles obeying God's law when it is only against them obeying man's law. However, if you think that the Jerusalem Council tried to countermand God's law, then are you a follower of the Jerusalem Council or are you a follower of God? Jesus gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to God's law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6), or do you think that following Jesus is only for the Jews?

Since you are Messanic, I'll dig the quote up but I recall a Rabbi saying that man standing to God depends on his standing in the Law.

And once again, Jesus Himself took all 613 "laws" boiled them down to two, and if we could do them, we could fulfill the law.

Sadly, I don't one single person on the face of the earth at any time that did that, except the Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I don't think I know ANYONE who believes that Yeshua/Jesus is messiah and thinks works or obedience save. Nobody.... 21 years as a Christian, 15 in a realm where we keep things like the Sabbath and Feasts... and I have yet to meet one person who believes that we are saved by works. That said, just because we are saved by grace does not abrogate works or obedience. Faith without works is dead being alone... if there are not works, you have no faith and that isn't me, that is the head of the church of Jerusalem, James the Apostle, who said that.

Lets see here.

Two contrasting points of view in James and Paul.

Paul:

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." -Rom. 4:3 (KJV)

James:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone...Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?..Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." -Jas. 2:17,21,24 (KJV)

Martin Luther was right about one thing, Paul writes about Gen. 15 while James writes about Gen 22.

There was some perhaps 40 years difference between what Paul writes about, and what James writes about.

Paul speaks of righteousness before God, while James speaks of works giving proof before men for calling oneself "Christian".

"In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15. Now although this epistle might be helped and an interpretation devised for this justification by works, it cannot be defended in its application to works of Moses' statement in Genesis 15. For Moses is speaking here only of Abraham's faith, and not of his works, as St. Paul demonstrates in Romans 4. This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.

In the second place its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ. He names Christ several times; however he teaches nothing about him, but only speaks of general faith in God. Now it is the office of a true apostle to preach of the Passion and resurrection and office of Christ, and to lay the foundation for faith in him, as Christ himself says in John 15, "You shall bear witness to me." All the genuine sacred books agree in this, that all of them preach and inculcate [treiben] Christ. And that is the true test by which to judge all books, when we see whether or not they inculcate Christ. For all the Scriptures show us Christ, Romans 3; and St. Paul will know nothing but Christ, I Corinthians 2. Whatever does not teach Christ is not apostolic, even though St. Peter or St. Paul does the teaching. Again, whatever preaches Christ would be apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate, and Herod were doing it.

But this James does nothing more than drive to the law and to its works. Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching. He calls the law a "law of liberty," though Paul calls it a law of slavery, of wrath, of death, and of sin."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Soyeong]

Since you are Messanic, I'll dig the quote up but I recall a Rabbi saying that man standing to God depends on his standing in the Law.

And once again, Jesus Himself took all 613 "laws" boiled them down to two, and if we could do them, we could fulfill the law.

Sadly, I don't one single person on the face of the earth at any time that did that, except the Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Till all are one.

If you want to look up rabbinic literature, then this is an instance of a famous rabbi saying something along the same lines as Jesus did:

One famous account in the Talmud (Shabbat 31a) tells about a gentile who wanted to convert to Judaism. This happened not infrequently, and this individual stated that he would accept Judaism only if a rabbi would teach him the entire Torah while he, the prospective convert, stood on one foot. First he went to Shammai, who, insulted by this ridiculous request, threw him out of the house. The man did not give up and went to Hillel. This gentle sage accepted the challenge, and said:

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this--go and study it!"
---

The other laws hang on the greatest two commands because they explain how to correctly obey them and through obeying the other laws we are obeying the greatest two. For example, the first four of the Ten Commandments are about how to love God and the last six are about how to love your neighbor, and all the rest of the laws in the Bible can fit into these categories. Also, look up where rabbinic literature talks about other people fulfilling the law in the sense they demonstrated a full understanding of how to obey the law in word or in action. Jesus fulfilled the law in the same sense that Romans 15:18-19 says that Paul fulfilled the gospel, namely that he fully taught obedience to it. In Matthew 5, Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and then proceeded to fulfill it six times by correctly teaching how to obey it. According to Galatians 5:14, everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so fulfilling the law was something common that anyone could do and not something unique to Jesus. Love fulfills the entire law because it demonstrates a full understanding about what the law teaches us to do. At no point does the Bible emphasize the need for us to obey perfectly in order to earn some result or say if only we could obey it perfectly, then we could fulfill the law.

 

[Soyeong]

We are not under the law. That means if you sin, or fail to follow one of the least of the commandments, you will not be damned as an imperfect hell-bound sinner whose soul will be condemned. That is it.

Not being under the law doesn't mean you become a disobedient child, and stop foowing God''s law. He, nor Christ never said the Law was done away with, null, void, inert, or to be ignored. In fact, He says as per the NEW COVENANT that the Law will be written on our hearts such that you won't even have to ask your neighbor do they know God.

What the New covenant promises is, through faith in Christ, a confession of sin, repentance and work toward righteousness you will not be condemned to die if you break a law. Your repentance, and faith vindicate you before God, and your sins are forgiven: SIN NO MORE.

How can you sin if there are no rules to fall short of ?

Being under the Law does not negate or cancel ANY of God''s Law, and Christ never suggested such a thing, nor would He ever suggest such a thing especially seeing as He is the Literal Word of God that lives forever.

When Heaven and Earth pass away, so will the Law. Until then, not one tittle or iota of the law is removed. Christ plainly teaches this.

The Mosaic law was given to reveal sin, so if we are not under it, then we are free to do what God has revealed to be sin. However, according to Romans 6:14, the law that we are no longer under is the law where sin had dominion over us, which is the law of sin, not the Mosaic law.

 

[DeaconDean]

If you want to look up rabbinic literature, then this is an instance of a famous rabbi saying something along the same lines as Jesus did:

One famous account in the Talmud (Shabbat 31a) tells about a gentile who wanted to convert to Judaism. This happened not infrequently, and this individual stated that he would accept Judaism only if a rabbi would teach him the entire Torah while he, the prospective convert, stood on one foot. First he went to Shammai, who, insulted by this ridiculous request, threw him out of the house. The man did not give up and went to Hillel. This gentle sage accepted the challenge, and said:

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this--go and study it!"

I have the quote found in the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament" by Gerhard Kittle.

I will supply it when I get home later today.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

The Mosaic law was given to reveal sin, so if we are not under it, then we are free to do what God has revealed to be sin. However, according to Romans 6:14, the law that we are no longer under is the law where sin had dominion over us, which is the law of sin, not the Mosaic law.

To counter, I submit:

"In Rom 6:14, Paul says that believers are not under Law but under grace (ou gar este hupo nomon alla hupo charin). Being "under Law" and "under grace" are two mutually exclusive ethical modes of being. Cranfield argues that by not being under the Law Paul is referring to not being "under God's disfavor or condemnation."(*) He explains further, "The fact that hupo nomon is contrasted with hupo charin suggests the likelihood that Paul is here thinking not of the law generally but of the law as condemning sinners." A parallel to Paul's affirmation is found in Rom 8:1: "There is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." It is certainly correct that, for Paul, to be "under grace" is not to under the condemnation of the Law, but Paul is asserting more than this. The full meaning of Rom 6:14 becomes clear when interpreted in light of the following verse. In Rom 6:15, Paul asks rhetorically whether his statement in Rom 6:14 means that believers can sin because they are not under Law but under grace: "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law but under grace?" This implies that Paul expects his readers to understand his statement in Rom 6:14 to mean that believers are not under the Law any longer even as a moral standard; otherwise his opponents would have no basis to criticize Paul's position as leading to antinomianism. Paul's response is not to say that believers cannot sin because they are still under the Law as a moral standard, but that sin is longer possible, since believers are now "slaves to obedience" (6:16).

(*)C. E. B. Cranfield, The Epistle to the Romans (ICC n.s.; 2 vols.; Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1975, 1979) 1.320."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Ken Rank]

Lol, His Moedim is for all of us, we are all welcome to join in they are God's Holy Convocations not just for the Jews. You can review them if you choose in Leviticus 23. We have Yom Teruah (feast of Trumpets) coming up tomorrow. Happy reading ")

God calls them "My feasts?" and they are also said to be "the feasts of the LORD." Why is Passover called a "feast of the Jews" in the NT? Because at the time (and still to some degree) the Jews were the only visible face of Israel. So even though the feasts were for all of Israel, only the Jewish people were in the land keeping them. Most of those who are part of Israel were, and even are, still scattered in the nations unaware of who they really are.

 

[Ken Rank]

Like I showed you previously.

Scriptures say it had a flaw/fault. Unless you do not believe that the scriptures are true.

It says, "for finding fault in >>THEM<<" which means it is the PEOPLE not the law. If you are going to use the Scripture to make a defense, USE IT... but read the wording. It does NOT SAY "for finding fault with it," which it would if we are talking about a thing, the law. But it is speaking about PEOPLE which is why it says, "them."

The law could not atone, could not declare one righteous, it could not justify, it could not forgive sin, only cover it, all it could do is drive one to the ordinances.

The first half of that run on sentence does not disagree with anything I believe or teach. The work Yeshua and earned the right to still do... atones. I never said anything else. As for the second part, that doesn't even make sense but don't bother explaining... we don't need to bother.

And that, my friend, is a fact!

No, that is fact as far as you understand today. You have not been perfected, and you know more today (or should) than you did 5 years ago, and will (or should) know more in 5 years than you know today. To assume that what you understand today is 100% accurate is simply a combination of pride and error.

I, too, look forward to the day we are one. But you might look at Ezekiel 37 and the two sticks. In it you will see two different groups of people, Judah and Joseph. Ezekiel, in the Hebrew mind you, is told to "draw the two sticks NEAR." In other words, two different and UNIQUE people that God has plans for that might not TODAY see eye to eye... are to be drawn close and treated as if one. When that happens, THEN God makes them one. So, there is a serious amount of humility being revealed from Ezekiel in drawing them near, treating them as one... before they really are one.

"Till all are one" is a cute little signature at the end of your posts that mean nothing if in the process of discussion you treat others as being less than you.

 

[Ken Rank]

Two contrasting points of view in James and Paul.

There was some perhaps 40 years difference between what Paul writes about, and what James writes about.

Not at all, there are differences based only on your understanding. You can't reconcile them so you say they contrast, you pit them against one another. But they are in perfect harmony but I am writing to a guy who thinks GOD authored a work of imperfection, so I won't spend any more time here.

 

[Ken Rank]

Correcting a misconception....

The author of the Torah, the covenant made with Israel at Sinai was not Moses, he merely wrote down what he was told. The author was God. God is perfect, God does not make mistakes, He is righteousness in the purest form and is incapable of error. We all believe this, we all say this in our own ways and yet....

Most read Hebrews and see chapter 8 verse 8 where it says, "For finding fault with THEM" and treat this as if it is speaking about the Law itself. But that has two very large problems it creates...

1. It doesn't say, "finding fault in IT," which it would if speaking about the law. It has "them" which means it is speaking about PEOPLE which is why modern paraphrases, like the NIV, say, "But God found fault with the people and said..."

2. If the fault is in the Law, and God is the author of the Law, then God is at fault. A conclusion that Hebrews 8:8 is speaking of the law takes God down from perfection to imperfection. If ascribes error to one incapable of error.

If we are so dogmatic that our conclusions lessen God's position and reputation, then we HAVE TO be less dogmatic and just let the truth be what it is even if we don't understand it today.

 

[Jim Langston]

I hear you but we are speaking to "Obeying the Law for salvation".
Salvation is not something you can earn; it is a gift. You can not earn it by being obedient to God's law. You can not earn it by doing your best to please God. There is no way you can measure up to God's standards. It is a righteousness "apart from the works of the law." It is apart from the law of any kind. It is a gift of grace.

It is important to keep in mind the law could demand perfect righteousness, but it was powerless to produce the perfect righteousness that God demands. The reason is because man is sinful at the very core of his nature. Depraved sinful man can not produce righteousness in God's sight no matter how many laws he passes.

Obeying the commandments does not save us neither does it keep us saved.

And just who does God give the gift too? The bible is quite clear, those that do the will of God.

If your theory is correct answer this, just what did Jedus mean by "not everyone who cries Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of God but those that do the will of my father in heaven". Yes, we know we are justified by faith not works. Yes, we know that works doesn't save us. But Jesus is saying here who is saved, not how we are saved. I've asked you these questions repeatedly, and repeatedly you go on about not being saved by works. Which we know. So, what is Jesus saying here, or do you simply ignore Him?

 

[Ken Rank]

I've asked you these questions repeatedly, and repeatedly you go on about not being saved by works. Which we know. So, what is Jesus saying here, or do you simply ignore Him?

It does get tiring. I don't care who is correct, it would be nice though to have a nice solid adult give and take and we just let the truth be the truth. For example, I am told the law is dead.. not for today, so I point out that Yeshua says to some, "depart from me you workers of lawlessness." Why would he cast away from him those who are lawless... and that is God's laws not man's? But that person doesn't answer, well they do... with condescending personal shots that make me feel like I am back in high school. Not only do we all deserve more than this, the Lord deserves more from those who claim to be his.

Blessings Jim.
Ken

 

[1John2:4]

It does get tiring. I don't care who is correct, it would be nice though to have a nice solid adult give and take and we just let the truth be the truth. For example, I am told the law is dead.. not for today, so I point out that Yeshua says to some, "depart from me you workers of lawlessness." Why would he cast away from him those who are lawless... and that is God's laws not man's? But that person doesn't answer, well they do... with condescending personal shots that make me feel like I am back in high school. Not only do we all deserve more than this, the Lord deserves more from those who claim to be his.

Blessings Jim.
Ken

Don't get weary of speaking truth my friend. Many people lurk on here and read your words. You never know whose heart you may impact ")

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[Major1]

And just who does God give the gift too? The bible is quite clear, those that do the will of God.

If your theory is correct answer this, just what did Jedus mean by "not everyone who cries Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of God but those that do the will of my father in heaven". Yes, we know we are justified by faith not works. Yes, we know that works doesn't save us. But Jesus is saying here who is saved, not how we are saved. I've asked you these questions repeatedly, and repeatedly you go on about not being saved by works. Which we know. So, what is Jesus saying here, or do you simply ignore Him?

Jim.....I do not have a theory. I do not have any opinions.
I have the Scriptures which you seem to be ignoring or twisting to fit YOUR theology.

Salvation is the Gift of God Jim which is available to all men who will accept Christ as Saviour.

Ephesians 2:8........
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God".

It is customary Jim to tell us the Bible verse you are quoting and not leave it up to assumption. You actually quoted....

Matt, 7:21........
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Your question to that teaching was.............."just what did Jesus mean".

Do you believe that everyone who says that they are saved today are in fact saved?????

Look at the verse. Jesus did not say that these people were saved. YOU said that not the Scriptures.
You said........
"But Jesus is saying here who is saved, not how we are saved".

I am perplexed why you keep harping of this simple easy to understand doctrine. I will try once again to say it clearly. Every believer, after he has come to Christ and has been saved, as the then normal course of living his life, that person will seek to obey the will of God. He will fail!!!! But his general course of consistant behavior is to obey the will of the Father.

Those sinners who are continually living is sin as the normal course of their lives, have no assurance of salvation whatsoever because their sinful works show them to be lost and not saved.

The phrase in Matthew....."work iniquity" is in the progressive in Greek which means literally, "They continue to work sin".

Then it must also be considered that Obviously that verse does not apply to believers today. Every single believer living or dead will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Bot one single believer will hear the Lord Jesus say......"Depart from me".

This passage has everything to do with the people during the Great Tribulation period.

"Many in THAT DAY" is a future day when salvation will mean obeying the commandments and receiving Christ but also losing their life to the A/C.

 

[Major1]

It does get tiring. I don't care who is correct, it would be nice though to have a nice solid adult give and take and we just let the truth be the truth. For example, I am told the law is dead.. not for today, so I point out that Yeshua says to some, "depart from me you workers of lawlessness." Why would he cast away from him those who are lawless... and that is God's laws not man's? But that person doesn't answer, well they do... with condescending personal shots that make me feel like I am back in high school. Not only do we all deserve more than this, the Lord deserves more from those who claim to be his.

Blessings Jim.
Ken

Dear Ken. You do realize that what you are describing is a two way street. Right? There are people here who post the exact words of the Scriptures and the same person/persons keeps rejecting them and saying the same old thing over and over. So it is frustrating for many people.

Personally I want you to care who is right. May I say to you that the Law of God is NOT DEAD. The Law of God is not bad.
The Law of God is good. Not just good but really good as it came from God Himself.

But that is not the point of contention. The rub is this. Is keeping/following the law required for a man to be saved and then kept to stay saved".

I do not know what others keep talking about but that is what I have been referring to from the beginning.

I say to you and everyone else.....If you would attain to eternal life by keeping the law, then keep the law. Just do it and live. There is only one problem. Have you ever done it? Have you kept the whole law every day, every hour of your life without ever failing?

The Bible is clear when it says that to be saved by keeping the law requires that a person keep the whole law perfectly, all the time. No exception is allowed. The law must be kept, all of it, without any omission, or failures, or exceptions, all of the time, twenty-four hours a day, all of your life.

Now lets see what the Bible says to YOU and me.

Romans 3:20 can not be any clearer.....
"By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His [God's] sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin."

There is the answer for you. Sinful man can not live up to the holy demands of God's law. No one is righteous in the eyes of God.

Again, Paul gives a summary statement when he writes, "There is no distinction; all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" in Romans 3:22-23. BOOM.....CONFIRMATION!

So why did God give the Law??? What was its purpose???? The purpose of the law was to reveal sin.

Romans 3:20.......
"Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin".

The law brings knowledge and conviction of sin.

Paul adds in Romans 7:7.....
"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, 'You shall not covet'".

In Galatians 3:22 he wrote.....
"But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin".

It locked us up in prison and threw the key away.

The law was never intended to be a means of salvation for anyone. It's purpose was to point out our weakness and failures and lead us to Christ so we would put our faith in Him to save us.

Therefore following the law is not required to be saved or to stay saved. It is actually that simple and this is the Bible answer.

Everyone has sinned in God's sight. There are no exceptions. All are without merit in His presence. "There is no difference" between the immoral, the self–righteous or the religious person. Why? All have personally sinned because to break the law in even one small point is to "become guilty of all." If you have broken the law, ever so slightly, you have broken the law completely and are guilty. Therefore, all have fallen short of God's expectations.

 

[Ken Rank]

Dear Ken. You do realize that what you are describing is a two way street. Right? There are people here who post the exact words of the Scriptures and the same person/persons keeps rejecting them and saying the same old thing over and over. So it is frustrating for many people.

Personally I want you to care who is right. May I say to you that the Law of God is NOT DEAD. The Law of God is not bad.
The Law of God is good. Not just good but really good as it came from God Himself.

But that is not the point of contention. The rub is this. Is keeping/following the law required for a man to be saved and then kept to stay saved".

I do not know what others keep talking about but that is what I have been referring to from the beginning.

I say to you and everyone else.....If you would attain to eternal life by keeping the law, then keep the law. Just do it and live. There is only one problem. Have you ever done it? Have you kept the whole law every day, every hour of your life without ever failing?

The Bible is clear when it says that to be saved by keeping the law requires that a person keep the whole law perfectly, all the time. No exception is allowed. The law must be kept, all of it, without any omission, or failures, or exceptions, all of the time, twenty-four hours a day, all of your life.

Now lets see what the Bible says to YOU and me.

Romans 3:20 can not be any clearer.....
"By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His [God's] sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin."

There is the answer for you. Sinful man can not live up to the holy demands of God's law. No one is righteous in the eyes of God.

Again, Paul gives a summary statement when he writes, "There is no distinction; all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" in Romans 3:22-23. BOOM.....CONFIRMATION!

So why did God give the Law??? What was its purpose???? The purpose of the law was to reveal sin.

Romans 3:20.......
"Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin".

The law brings knowledge and conviction of sin.

Paul adds in Romans 7:7.....
"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, 'You shall not covet'".

In Galatians 3:22 he wrote.....
"But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin".

It locked us up in prison and threw the key away.

The law was never intended to be a means of salvation for anyone. It's purpose was to point out our weakness and failures and lead us to Christ so we would put our faith in Him to save us.

Therefore following the law is not required to be saved or to stay saved. It is actually that simple and this is the Bible answer.

Everyone has sinned in God's sight. There are no exceptions. All are without merit in His presence. "There is no difference" between the immoral, the self–righteous or the religious person. Why? All have personally sinned because to break the law in even one small point is to "become guilty of all." If you have broken the law, ever so slightly, you have broken the law completely and are guilty. Therefore, all have fallen short of God's expectations.

Quickly (I have to run) I don't care who is correct based on the understanding that we both know that 5 years ago we understood less than we do now... and that 5 years from now we will know more than we know today. Therefore, exactly "what" is believed isn't as important as the development of good methodology that will allow for sounds answers to come as we grow.

As for the rest... works don't save, we are saved by God's grace, alone. That doesn't abrogate being obedient, it just means we aren't saved by being obedient. We are saved by grace but the saved obey and work and without the work it is likely the faith is void seeing faith without works is dead. Blessings!

 

[Jim Langston]

Jim.....I do not have a theory. I do not have any opinions.
I have the Scriptures which you seem to be ignoring or twisting to fit YOUR theology.

Salvation is the Gift of God Jim which is available to all men who will accept Christ as Saviour.

Ephesians 2:8........
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God".

It is customary Jim to tell us the Bible verse you are quoting and not leave it up to assumption. You actually quoted....

Matt, 7:21........
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Your question to that teaching was.............."just what did Jesus mean".

Do you believe that everyone who says that they are saved today are in fact saved?????

Look at the verse. Jesus did not say that these people were saved. YOU said that not the Scriptures.
You said........
"But Jesus is saying here who is saved, not how we are saved".

I am perplexed why you keep harping of this simple easy to understand doctrine. I will try once again to say it clearly. Every believer, after he has come to Christ and has been saved, as the then normal course of living his life, that person will seek to obey the will of God. He will fail!!!! But his general course of consistant behavior is to obey the will of the Father.

Those sinners who are continually living is sin as the normal course of their lives, have no assurance of salvation whatsoever because their sinful works show them to be lost and not saved.

The phrase in Matthew....."work iniquity" is in the progressive in Greek which means literally, "They continue to work sin".

Then it must also be considered that Obviously that verse does not apply to believers today. Every single believer living or dead will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Bot one single believer will hear the Lord Jesus say......"Depart from me".

This passage has everything to do with the people during the Great Tribulation period.

"Many in THAT DAY" is a future day when salvation will mean obeying the commandments and receiving Christ but also losing their life to the A/C.

So you are saying that Jesus is speaking of "THAT DAY" in the future when salvation will mean obeying the commandments. So are you saying the ruler, who asked Jesus in Jesus' own day, how do i get to heaven was in "THAT DAY"?

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

This was in Jesus' day, not "THAT DAY". So, what, it applied in Jesus' day, it will apply in the future but it will not apply today? The bible is quite clear. So your "THAT DAY" theology is not sound doctrine.

 

[Major1]

So you are saying that Jesus is speaking of "THAT DAY" in the future when salvation will mean obeying the commandments. So are you saying the ruler, who asked Jesus in Jesus' own day, how do i get to heaven was in "THAT DAY"?

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

This was in Jesus' day, not "THAT DAY". So, what, it applied in Jesus' day, it will apply in the future but it will not apply today? The bible is quite clear. So your "THAT DAY" theology is not sound doctrine.

Jim. You are just killing me brother.

I am saying that the passage YOU quoted is more for a future day than it is today.

But when I read the verse Jim......."IN THAT DAY". (vs 22). It to me speaking of a day coming not which has already past. Do you think THAT day was the day the young ruler came to Jesus. Wonderful brother. You just keep right on believing that.

Now you jump to Matt. 19:16 and try to make the day there...."THAT" day. I DID NOT SAY THAT.

I said and repeat to you that Matt. 7:21-23 that you posted are about the day coming which is the Tribulation Period. That is when the Jews will come saying....."Didn't we do this and didn't we do that and Jesus will say, depart from me".

Works do not save and keeping the law does not save. IF you want to believe that they do, go right ahead.

 

[Major1]

Quickly (I have to run) I don't care who is correct based on the understanding that we both know that 5 years ago we understood less than we do now... and that 5 years from now we will know more than we know today. Therefore, exactly "what" is believed isn't as important as the development of good methodology that will allow for sounds answers to come as we grow.

As for the rest... works don't save, we are saved by God's grace, alone. That doesn't abrogate being obedient, it just means we aren't saved by being obedient. We are saved by grace but the saved obey and work and without the work it is likely the faith is void seeing faith without works is dead. Blessings!

And that is exactly what I have been saying!!!!!