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This post is in response to this response http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ords-day-sunday.7966382/page-18#post-70193626 in the thread "Should Christians rest on the Sabbath (saturday) and rejoice on the Lords day (sunday)?"
I will try to keep the quoting correct but I may be off and it was not intentional.
Again, my post was not in response to worshipping on the Sabbath day. It was in response to someone stating we, as Christians, weren't obligated to follow the ten commandments because we weren't under the law.
This is the text of the scripture.
Luke 18
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
This same occurrence was recorded in Matthew 19:16-30 and Mark 10:17-31. There are a few differences in text, the main one being Matthew 19 has the man saying "what lack I yet?" and Jesus responding "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell..." seeming to indicate that selling all that he had and giving it to the poor was not a requirement for salvation, but with it he would get greater rewards in heaven.
So, a man asked Jesus what that man had to do to get to heaven and Jesus basically said follow the ten commandments. Can we at least agree with that? The words the man and Jesus said in the bible? Whether it was because this man was a Jew and not a gentile or not, or because Jesus hadn't died on the cross at not is another point. If we can agree with what the man asked and what Jesus replied and that Jesus didn't lie we can proceed on the same page.
I make a distinct notice of the fact that Jesus says "thou knowest the commandments" and not "thou knowest the law". Commandments. Law. See the difference? Jesus did not say follow the law. Jesus said follow the commandments. Did He not?
It is my contention that where the new testament uses the word "law", usually Paul, what he meant by that was the Mosiac law, I.E. Moses' laws other than the 10 commandments. This he expressed best, I think, in Galatians 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." after Paul goes on about how we are no longer under the law, meaning the Mosaic law, but under the 10 commandments which are also under what he calls in other places the law of Christ. Jesus said all the commandments were based on love god with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Here is the section in Galations where Paul is saying don't follow the (Mosaic) law but follow the 10 commandments, I.E. Love thy neighbors as thyself (even Jesus left out all the commandments about loving God, curiously enough).
Galations 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Even Paul is saying your law is now love thy neighbour as thyself, just as Jesus told the man who asked how to get to heaven, because you may notice that all those commandments he gave dealt with love our neighbors as ourselves.
So, Jesus says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). Paul says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). If you can figure out a way to steal from someone while still treating them as yourself you are denying the truth. If you love your neighbor as yourself you will will follow the commandments automatically because, as Jesus says, that's what all the commandments are based on. Jesus said do it. Paul said do it. Do what? Love your neightbor as yourself, I.E. follow the 10 commandments.
I am not talking about the commandments dealing with God. It is possible that we are only under 6 commandments but we are told elsewhere that people who practice idolatry won't get to heaven either. We are also told somewhere that the Godless won't enter heaven. So that's 9. Which leaves do we have to honor the Sabbath.
I am a Christian, I am not Jewish. I am not under the Mosiac Law according to what Jesus said. I read the new testament and read what Jesus said and Jesus tells me to Love the lord my God with all my heart, all my mind and all my soul and love my neighbor as myself. I only have 2 laws to worry about. All the others fall under those. Basically if it doesn't hurt God and it doesn't hurt anyone else then it's not sin. If it hurts god or it hurts anyone else then it's sin. Easy to remember. Easy to know when I fail and have to ask God for forgiveness.
Maybe it's a cop out for me to simply state that it's because I'm not Jewish because Jews aren't under the Mosaic law anymore either. It's easier to not be told to do something then to be told to do something then be told to stop. But since I'm not Jewish for me personally I don't have to worry about it. The Mosaic law saved the Jews, not the Gentiles so they never applied to me at any time since the beginning of creation. Maybe if I live some point in the past before Jesus came I might have to worry about following the Mosiac law or not being a gentile but it's a none issue today. Jesus never said I had to follow them, Paul never did, no one in the bible I can find ever said that me, a gentile, ever had to follow the Mosaic law.
Let me get this straight, you are saying that accepting Jesus as my savior is not works it is an act. So, answer this, how by any stretch of the imagination is not doing something a work? It is, in fact, the absence of work. Don't steal. Don't covet. Don't commit adultery. This, to you, are works but accepting Jesus as my savior is not? I'll let you reword this question because on the face of it you never thought your logic thorough.
Now, your comment, we are saved by faith NOT OF WORKS. Just as the doctor example later, I had to go to the doctor. I had to take any medication he gave me. But my acts did not save me, the doctor performing the operation saved me. I was saved by the operation, NOT BY WORKS. Can we agree here?
I think one of the problems we are having is the Mosaic law was full of works. Sacrifice lambs. Sacrifice sheep. Sin offerings. Etc... Those, to both of us, are ACTS AND WORKS. Can we agree? Before the Jews were saved by WORKS, sacrificing sheep, slaughtering lambs, etc.. for all the sin they did. On top of this they were still supposed to try to follow the 10 commandments. When they couldn't follow the commandments they had to sacrifice an innocent animal to atone for their sins. Jesus has done that atonement for us. So when we fail to follow the commandments, I.E. we fail to treat others as ourselves, instead of sacrificing a sheep/lamb/ox, whatever as an act of WORK we pray to God/Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. A WORK is not needed for the atonement anymore. NOT SINNING IS NOT A WORK.
Okay, [staff edit] this just doesn't seem to make sense. Jesus saves me completely as I have always said. Jesus is the one who washes away my sins. Jesus is the one who forgives my sins. I can do nothing to wash away my sins other than ask Jesus for forgiveness. I have never denied that. It is my sins that keep me out of heaven. If I was born sinless and never sinned and died sinless then I wouldn't have to be forgiven. But no man, other than Jesus, can do that.
I do not comprehend how you are saying I am giving the doctor more credit than Jesus. Just as I had to follow the doctor's orders I had to follow Jesus' orders.
If you can express your question a little better than I may have a better chance of framing a meaningful answer.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! they do focus on following God's commandments. That is what Jesus asks us to do and is part of our salvation! Without trying to follow the 10 commandments we are not saved. And I never said I was perfect, I said I follow the ten commandments and when I fail I ask Jesus for forgiveness which He does because I am following his directive to focus on following God's commandments.
We seem to have the same understanding. So it comes down to one question. If someone asks Jesus into their heart and they do not try to follow the 10 commandments, are they still saved? If they ignored the 10 commandments and lived their lives as if they didn't exist? I think you will agree with me that the person who does that is not saved. But the person who accepts Jesus and tries to follow the 10 commandments and asks for forgiveness when they fail is saved.
I think we absolutely believe the same thing. I think you are stuck on believing that following the 10 commandments is the "works" the bible is saying we are not saved by, when I believe those "works" were the Mosaic law which we are no longer under. We both agree that focusing on following the 10 commandments does not save us. Jesus' forgiving us for our sins when we fail is what saves us. No?
I will try to keep the quoting correct but I may be off and it was not intentional.
I am on my cellphone so it is not as easy to me respond in line.
My post was not so much a response to worshipping on the Sabbath being required at salvation but in response to the viewpoint you have given.
OK, but nowhere did I say that the Sabbath was intended to be the day of worship, because it wasn't.
Again, my post was not in response to worshipping on the Sabbath day. It was in response to someone stating we, as Christians, weren't obligated to follow the ten commandments because we weren't under the law.
There was a man who asked how to enter heaven and Jesus responded to follow the commandments listing a number of them, with the sabbath being absent. The mosaic law (everything other than the 10 commandments) was not included either. But the (majority of) 10 commandments were. That is why I do not sacrifice animals on the alter, I am not Jewish, I am not under the (mosaic) law.
What is the passage of the story you're referring to? Also, "alter" means change but the word you want is "altar". As for being under the law, Christians are not under any law, but everyone (until they become Christians) is under all law, not just the 10 commandments.
This is the text of the scripture.
Luke 18
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. 24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
This same occurrence was recorded in Matthew 19:16-30 and Mark 10:17-31. There are a few differences in text, the main one being Matthew 19 has the man saying "what lack I yet?" and Jesus responding "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell..." seeming to indicate that selling all that he had and giving it to the poor was not a requirement for salvation, but with it he would get greater rewards in heaven.
So, a man asked Jesus what that man had to do to get to heaven and Jesus basically said follow the ten commandments. Can we at least agree with that? The words the man and Jesus said in the bible? Whether it was because this man was a Jew and not a gentile or not, or because Jesus hadn't died on the cross at not is another point. If we can agree with what the man asked and what Jesus replied and that Jesus didn't lie we can proceed on the same page.
I make a distinct notice of the fact that Jesus says "thou knowest the commandments" and not "thou knowest the law". Commandments. Law. See the difference? Jesus did not say follow the law. Jesus said follow the commandments. Did He not?
It is my contention that where the new testament uses the word "law", usually Paul, what he meant by that was the Mosiac law, I.E. Moses' laws other than the 10 commandments. This he expressed best, I think, in Galatians 5:14 "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." after Paul goes on about how we are no longer under the law, meaning the Mosaic law, but under the 10 commandments which are also under what he calls in other places the law of Christ. Jesus said all the commandments were based on love god with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Here is the section in Galations where Paul is saying don't follow the (Mosaic) law but follow the 10 commandments, I.E. Love thy neighbors as thyself (even Jesus left out all the commandments about loving God, curiously enough).
Galations 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Even Paul is saying your law is now love thy neighbour as thyself, just as Jesus told the man who asked how to get to heaven, because you may notice that all those commandments he gave dealt with love our neighbors as ourselves.
So, Jesus says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). Paul says follow the 10 commandments (at least the ones dealing with other people). If you can figure out a way to steal from someone while still treating them as yourself you are denying the truth. If you love your neighbor as yourself you will will follow the commandments automatically because, as Jesus says, that's what all the commandments are based on. Jesus said do it. Paul said do it. Do what? Love your neightbor as yourself, I.E. follow the 10 commandments.
I am not talking about the commandments dealing with God. It is possible that we are only under 6 commandments but we are told elsewhere that people who practice idolatry won't get to heaven either. We are also told somewhere that the Godless won't enter heaven. So that's 9. Which leaves do we have to honor the Sabbath.
And that is how I read the bible following what Jesus said to do here, follow the ten commandments but the mosaic law doesn't apply to me. Of course we know that there is more than that because even if I followed all of the ten commandments perfectly from now to the day I died it would not earn me salvation, only Jesus's washing away my sins will, which he does because I follow Him. I believe in him, do what He says to do as much as I am able and ask for forgiveness when I can't. But if I do not try then 1. I don't believe in Jesus and 2. I'm not repentant, both which are required for Jesus to wash away my sins.
So why do you only try to follow the 10 commandments when there are other laws given by God?
I am a Christian, I am not Jewish. I am not under the Mosiac Law according to what Jesus said. I read the new testament and read what Jesus said and Jesus tells me to Love the lord my God with all my heart, all my mind and all my soul and love my neighbor as myself. I only have 2 laws to worry about. All the others fall under those. Basically if it doesn't hurt God and it doesn't hurt anyone else then it's not sin. If it hurts god or it hurts anyone else then it's sin. Easy to remember. Easy to know when I fail and have to ask God for forgiveness.
Maybe it's a cop out for me to simply state that it's because I'm not Jewish because Jews aren't under the Mosaic law anymore either. It's easier to not be told to do something then to be told to do something then be told to stop. But since I'm not Jewish for me personally I don't have to worry about it. The Mosaic law saved the Jews, not the Gentiles so they never applied to me at any time since the beginning of creation. Maybe if I live some point in the past before Jesus came I might have to worry about following the Mosiac law or not being a gentile but it's a none issue today. Jesus never said I had to follow them, Paul never did, no one in the bible I can find ever said that me, a gentile, ever had to follow the Mosaic law.
If it is your claim that absolutely no act I do has anything to do with my salvation them how would I ever be saved in the first place? I need to accept Jesus as my savior, which is an act. I need to repent, which is an act. An act is works. Even though I am required to follow Jesus's teachings, which are works, they do not save me, because I'm saved by faith, faith in Jesus enough to follow his commandments and do what he said I must do to be saved. Which I can never do good enough to please God without Jesus' grace. It is not my works that save me, it is the grace of God I get for doing what He tells me to do.
If it is your claim that you earn your salvation by even one work, no matter how "small", then you are going against God's Word.
An "act" and a "work" are different things. If I win the lottery and collect my winnings, did I "work" for that money? The act of collecting it is not work in the sense of earning that money. The word "work" is used different ways but "work" in the Bible does not refer to all those different connotations we have for that word in English. If you consider an "act" to be a "work" and that you are getting your salvation based on doing that "work" then you are going against what God's Word says. God's Word says salvation is a GIFT. Gifts require no work. The act of accepting a gift is not work.
You are contradicting yourself by first saying an act that you do saves you and that "an act is works" and then saying that your works don't save you. You also contradict yourself by saying you are required to follow Jesus' commandments and then saying that it is only faith by which you are saved. Those two things are contradictory. It is by faith you are saved and NOT OF WORKS - that's exactly what the Bible says.
Let me get this straight, you are saying that accepting Jesus as my savior is not works it is an act. So, answer this, how by any stretch of the imagination is not doing something a work? It is, in fact, the absence of work. Don't steal. Don't covet. Don't commit adultery. This, to you, are works but accepting Jesus as my savior is not? I'll let you reword this question because on the face of it you never thought your logic thorough.
Now, your comment, we are saved by faith NOT OF WORKS. Just as the doctor example later, I had to go to the doctor. I had to take any medication he gave me. But my acts did not save me, the doctor performing the operation saved me. I was saved by the operation, NOT BY WORKS. Can we agree here?
I think one of the problems we are having is the Mosaic law was full of works. Sacrifice lambs. Sacrifice sheep. Sin offerings. Etc... Those, to both of us, are ACTS AND WORKS. Can we agree? Before the Jews were saved by WORKS, sacrificing sheep, slaughtering lambs, etc.. for all the sin they did. On top of this they were still supposed to try to follow the 10 commandments. When they couldn't follow the commandments they had to sacrifice an innocent animal to atone for their sins. Jesus has done that atonement for us. So when we fail to follow the commandments, I.E. we fail to treat others as ourselves, instead of sacrificing a sheep/lamb/ox, whatever as an act of WORK we pray to God/Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. A WORK is not needed for the atonement anymore. NOT SINNING IS NOT A WORK.
I go to the doctor and the doctor does an operation that saves my life. Who saved my life, me by going to the doctor or the doctor for operating? All the credit goes to the doctor. I just did what I had to do to allow him to save my life.
So then why do you want to take credit for the "act" of believing or repenting? But with a doctor you want all credit to go to the doctor and you get no credit for the act (which you consider a "work") of going to him? That doesn't make sense. You're giving a doctor more credit for doing an operation than you're giving Jesus for redeeming you from death.
Okay, [staff edit] this just doesn't seem to make sense. Jesus saves me completely as I have always said. Jesus is the one who washes away my sins. Jesus is the one who forgives my sins. I can do nothing to wash away my sins other than ask Jesus for forgiveness. I have never denied that. It is my sins that keep me out of heaven. If I was born sinless and never sinned and died sinless then I wouldn't have to be forgiven. But no man, other than Jesus, can do that.
I do not comprehend how you are saying I am giving the doctor more credit than Jesus. Just as I had to follow the doctor's orders I had to follow Jesus' orders.
If you can express your question a little better than I may have a better chance of framing a meaningful answer.
Jesus says to follow the commandments, do you? If you do not then the bible says do not be deceived, sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God.
So you're telling me you always follow all of the commandments all the time and never, ever, ever sin? Seriously?
I'm a sinner and I still sin. Christians don't stop sinning once they become Christians. They do have a change in them and they do change their lives and they do focus on following God's commandments but they are not made into perfect beings that don't sin. I don't believe anyone, including you, who tells me they don't sin and they always follow God's Commandments.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! they do focus on following God's commandments. That is what Jesus asks us to do and is part of our salvation! Without trying to follow the 10 commandments we are not saved. And I never said I was perfect, I said I follow the ten commandments and when I fail I ask Jesus for forgiveness which He does because I am following his directive to focus on following God's commandments.
We seem to have the same understanding. So it comes down to one question. If someone asks Jesus into their heart and they do not try to follow the 10 commandments, are they still saved? If they ignored the 10 commandments and lived their lives as if they didn't exist? I think you will agree with me that the person who does that is not saved. But the person who accepts Jesus and tries to follow the 10 commandments and asks for forgiveness when they fail is saved.
I think we absolutely believe the same thing. I think you are stuck on believing that following the 10 commandments is the "works" the bible is saying we are not saved by, when I believe those "works" were the Mosaic law which we are no longer under. We both agree that focusing on following the 10 commandments does not save us. Jesus' forgiving us for our sins when we fail is what saves us. No?
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