Is following the 10 commandments required for salvation?

[Jim Langston]

Just a simple question here. When was the last time you completely rested on Saturday and did not leave your house?

It's been a while, but then, the bible never tells me not to leave my house, does it? The bible says in six days do your work, on the seventh day rest.

When I work I work Monday through Friday, I have both the seventh and the first day off.

Are you like the Pharasees who say healing on the sabbath is work? And if I didn't leave my house how coukld I go to church?
Why are you trying to add to the bible things that are not there?

 

[1John2:4]

That is more true than you might even realize. Paul attended Beit Hillel (School of Hillel) and he understood exegesis like none of the other NT authors. He employs one tool known at the 7 Rules of Hillel. These are MAJOR context effecting rules and he used them over 50 times. With one rule he might quote a whole verse or just part of one and you are expected to go to the verse he quotes and take the context from the whole discourse that taken verse came from, and apply that to his letter. We see this really well in Romans 9 (especially in verses 20 through 27) where he is quoting Hosea and Isaiah which are talking about the Northern Kingdom and their RETURN to God and the land. We read it and see "all Israel will be saved" and think "eternal salvation" when the place he is quoting doesn't have 'saved' it has 'returned' and the context is clearly tied to Israel (Northern Kingdom) coming back from the nations they were scattered into. My point is simply... you can't take a verse that Paul uses and expect to make a proper point. You did well in pointing that out!

Thanks Brother,
You are absolutely correct, he pulls things from all over the Tenakh and the ones listening if they were Jews they would know what he is pulling from to make his claim. The more I study and sew His Word into my heart the more I understand Paul. My favorite is when he pulls Dueteronomy 30:14 into Romans 8:10. It's the true definition of faith! Thanks, for your kind words

 

[Jim Langston]

Everyone keeps talking about how we are saved, I.E. the mechanics. We are not saved by works but we are saved by grace, faith.

The question is why we are saved. I.E. who is saved.

Jesus said "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." That is a who. Those who do the will of the Father in heaven.

James said "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." I.E. who is saved. Faith by itself is not enough.

A ruler asked Jesus "Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" and Jesus replied "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother." That is who is saved. Those that follow the commandments.

Paul said "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." That is who is saved. Not those who continue to sin, but those who walk after the spirit, I.E. do not live in sin, follow the ten commandments like Jesus said.

Paul and Silas said "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." That is who is saved. Those who believe in Jesus. If I believe in exercise then I go to the gym and do what excercising teaches. If I believe in Jesus then I do what Jesus says to do, I.E. follow the ten commandments.

Paul again said "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." This is how we are saved. The mechanics of salvation. Following the ten commandments does not save us, God forgiving us of our sins saves us. And even here note "God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Walk in what? Good works.

Before you say we are not saved by works we are saved by faith/grace understand that I totally believe you. But understand that we are not saved unless we do as Jesus says and follow the ten commandments.

My theology follows every verse in the bible. I throw none out. I am saved by grace, not works. Jesus says do not kill, do not steal.

Now, before you say "but no one can keep the ten commandments perfectly" everyone on this board knows that. I have not heard anyone on this board state otherwise. Following the ten commandments does not mean keeping them perfectly it means trying to follow them and not living in sin like the bible says if we do we will not be saved.

 

[tooldtocare]

Is the 5th Commandment directed only to the Jews
[5] Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

Sabbath (/ˈsæbəθ/) is a day set aside for rest and worship. According to Exodus 20:8 the Sabbath is commanded byGod to be kept as a holy day of rest, as God rested from creation. It is observed differently among the Abrahamic religionsand informs a similar occasion in several other practices. Although many viewpoints and definitions have arisen over the millennia, most originate in the same textual tradition of: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy".

In Judaism, Sabbath is the seventh day of the Hebrew calendar week, which in English is known as Saturday.[1] The term has been used to describe a similar weekly observance in any of several other traditions; the first crescent or new moon; any of seven annual festivals in Judaism and some Christian traditions; any of eight annual pagan festivals (usually "sabbat"); an annual secular holiday; and a year of rest in religious or secular usage, the sabbath year, originally every seventh year.

Now that I have looked it up I find myself wrong once again

Such is life -

 

[Ken Rank]

Now, before you say "but no one can keep the ten commandments perfectly" everyone on this board knows that. I have not heard anyone on this board state otherwise. Following the ten commandments does not mean keeping them perfectly it means trying to follow them and not living in sin like the bible says if we do we will not be saved.

I disagree with you here, Jim. Yeshua walked it out perfectly and showed us what God expects. So we have the model, and we have Christ in us through whom we can do ALL THINGS. That doesn't mean we won't fall short... that doesn't mean we are perfect... God knows we are not, that is why He has to perfect us. But He still expects us to strive for perfection, to walk in righteousness. Therefore, whether we can or can't be perfect, we are expected to strive for it. Peace!

 

[1John2:4]

Is the 5th Commandment directed only to the Jews
[5] Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

Sabbath (/ˈsæbəθ/) is a day set aside for rest and worship. According to Exodus 20:8 the Sabbath is commanded byGod to be kept as a holy day of rest, as God rested from creation. It is observed differently among the Abrahamic religionsand informs a similar occasion in several other practices. Although many viewpoints and definitions have arisen over the millennia, most originate in the same textual tradition of: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy".

In Judaism, Sabbath is the seventh day of the Hebrew calendar week, which in English is known as Saturday.[1] The term has been used to describe a similar weekly observance in any of several other traditions; the first crescent or new moon; any of seven annual festivals in Judaism and some Christian traditions; any of eight annual pagan festivals (usually "sabbat"); an annual secular holiday; and a year of rest in religious or secular usage, the sabbath year, originally every seventh year.

Now that I have looked it up I find myself wrong once again

Such is life -

Lol, His Moedim is for all of us, we are all welcome to join in they are God's Holy Convocations not just for the Jews. You can review them if you choose in Leviticus 23. We have Yom Teruah (feast of Trumpets) coming up tomorrow. Happy reading ")

 

[Jim Langston]

I disagree with you here, Jim. Yeshua walked it out perfectly and showed us what God expects. So we have the model, and we have Christ in us through whom we can do ALL THINGS. That doesn't mean we won't fall short... that doesn't mean we are perfect... God knows we are not, that is why He has to perfect us. But He still expects us to strive for perfection, to walk in righteousness. Therefore, whether we can or can't be perfect, we are expected to strive for it. Peace!

I actually don't understand what you are disagreeing with because that is the same thing I said. Just because we can't keep the commandments perfectly doesn't mean we aren't supposed to try.

Maybe you meant to expand on, not disagree with.

 

[Major1]

We all have a special gift God has given us, time. We should try to respect that gift. You could have listed the denomination rather than make it so that I either need to go on a Google search or wait on you for an answer.

As for my need to get out more often? Do we really need to make comments like that as they tend to place small little wedges between us. I get out a little more than you might think, I don't know of any mainstream denomination that teaches works unto salvation. I know MANY that teach works... I teach works... but not unto salvation. The problem is that today so many Christians have been raised to recoil at the mere mention of works THINKING "unto salvation" is being stated when it isn't even on our minds at all.

My apologies to you. I just assumed that since you are reading and posting on the net you would be aware of religions which are works based.

I will be glad to list some for you but if you goggle them it would be a lot easier for you.

Hinduism has about 330 million gods who must be appeased through some type of ritual.
Buddhism is also all about works.
Islam, paradise is attained when Allah weighs a follower's good works against his bad deeds on a scale at Judgment Day.
In Judaism, heaven is attained by keeping the Law and its ceremonies.
Jehovah's Witnesses. (Not Christian).
Mormons. (Not Christians).
Seventh-Day Adventists.
Church of Christ adherents.
Roman Catholics.
Eastern and Russian Orthodox.
Assembly of God.

I also teach works. Works come AFTER we are saved and are a product of salvation and NOT a tool of salvation.

 

[Major1]

Here is a good one... "there are none righteous, no not one!!!!" That is used on me anytime I mention the word "Works." Paul is quoting, however, two different Psalms which are speaking about those who "say there is no God." Atheists, not those following God. Many people are called righteous in the NT and OT. But we quote verses like that, out of context, to try to make a anti-law point.

I don't care WHAT the truth is, I just care that I learn in it and walk it as best I can. Father expects us to seek perfection even if we can't achieve it until we are changed.

Truth is what God's Word says it is.

 

[Soyeong]

What else did Paul write to the Galatians?

He said: "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." -Gal. 3:25 (KJV)

The "old" system of works, is done away with. We are no longer under it.

I was specifically talking about this verse in the post you responded to. Furthermore, God has never given a system of works, but only a system of faith and love. God's law is instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) in accordance with His character, so they can not be done away with unless God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness are first done away with. As part of the New Covenant, we are still told to follow God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 Peter 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

Paul called the "law" a "yoke of bondage" (cf. Gal. 5:1), and told us not to again be under the yoke of bondage.

You must have a pretty low opinion of God to think that He would save the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt only to put them back under bondage to His law and that throughout the Bible He was calling them from their freedom to sin and do what is right in their own eyes back to the bondage of doing what is holy, righteous, and good in obedience to His ways. Rather, as Galatians 5:1 states, it is for freedom that God sets us free, and God's law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25), while it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage. It can't be disobedience and obedience to the law as it was intended that both put us in bondage. However, God's law can be perverted into a system of works that are about what we need to do in order to become justified, which would be living in just as much bondage as living in disobedience to the law. There is a world of difference between Paul saying that obeying God's law for the purpose of becoming justified is bondage and saying that obeying God's law is bondage. It is like hearing someone speaking against using a car to drive on the bottom of a lake and you concluding that they are against driving cars on roads.

He also taught:

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." -Gal. 5:18 (KJV)

Galatians 5:16-23 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

It does not make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as saying that if we are under the Spirit that we aren't under the Mosaic law because the law being talked about is one that is against God, not one that was given by God. I mean, are you suggesting that when God gave the Mosaic law that He gave a law that was against His Spirit? Rather, the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Everything that was listed as being works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against what the Mosaic law teaches and everything that was listed as being fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with what the Mosaic law teaches, which should come as no surprise because the Mosaic law was commanded by God and the Spirit is God. Rather, if we are led by the Spirit, then we are not under the law of sin, which is the same thing that Paul was saying in Romans:

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

It is not the Mosaic law where sin had dominion over us, but rather it was the law of sin. In Romans 7:12-23, Paul said that the Mosaic law is holy, righteous, and good, that it was the good he sought to do and delighted in doing, but contrasted that with a law of sin that was working within him to stir up sin and to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, so the Mosaic law is the opposite of the law of sin.

But here again, just as Jesus took all 613 "laws" and boiled them down to two, Paul tells us:

" For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." -Gal. 5:14 (KJV)

But sadly, we still cannot do that.

Everyone since Moses who has acted in love toward their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law. Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so love fulfills the law because that is what it is essentially about how to do. All of the 613 commands in the OT and 1,050 commands in the NT are examples of how to correctly obey the greatest two commandments, so if you say all we need to do is follow God's command to love, so we don't need to follow His commands for how He wants us to love, then you are missing the point.

If you really really want to get "nit-picky", read Acts 15 and what they said at the first Apostolic Council meeting as to exactly how much of the "Law" applies to Gentiles.

God Bless

Till all are one.

There is a theme throughout the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, and it should be extremely obvious that followers of God should follow God's commands, so Acts 15 should not be misunderstood as speaking against Gentiles obeying God's law when it is only against them obeying man's law. However, if you think that the Jerusalem Council tried to countermand God's law, then are you a follower of the Jerusalem Council or are you a follower of God? Jesus gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to God's law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6), or do you think that following Jesus is only for the Jews?

 

[Major1]

That is more true than you might even realize. Paul attended Beit Hillel (School of Hillel) and he understood exegesis like none of the other NT authors. He employs one tool known at the 7 Rules of Hillel. These are MAJOR context effecting rules and he used them over 50 times. With one rule he might quote a whole verse or just part of one and you are expected to go to the verse he quotes and take the context from the whole discourse that taken verse came from, and apply that to his letter. We see this really well in Romans 9 (especially in verses 20 through 27) where he is quoting Hosea and Isaiah which are talking about the Northern Kingdom and their RETURN to God and the land. We read it and see "all Israel will be saved" and think "eternal salvation" when the place he is quoting doesn't have 'saved' it has 'returned' and the context is clearly tied to Israel (Northern Kingdom) coming back from the nations they were scattered into. My point is simply... you can't take a verse that Paul uses and expect to make a proper point. You did well in pointing that out!

Thank you for the comment. I am just am old country boy trying to get out the Word of God.

 

[Major1]

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedienceleading to righteousness?
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Major 1, Paul usually takes a lot of writing to make a point. I am just posting the rest of his point. If we take just a little verse from Paul and use it to prove our point we miss his amazing message. Not trying to pick on you or anything ")

Pick away!

Isn't he saying that it is sin in him that makes him do what he does not want to do?

 

[1John2:4]

Pick away!

Isn't he saying that it is sin in him that makes him do what he does not want to do?

Yep he is telling us about a battle we all face when we choose the way. The flesh pulls us away from righteousness. I really love that passage, it's so relatable.

 

[1John2:4]

My apologies to you. I just assumed that since you are reading and posting on the net you would be aware of religions which are works based.

I will be glad to list some for you but if you goggle them it would be a lot easier for you.

Hinduism has about 330 million gods who must be appeased through some type of ritual.
Buddhism is also all about works.
Islam, paradise is attained when Allah weighs a follower's good works against his bad deeds on a scale at Judgment Day.
In Judaism, heaven is attained by keeping the Law and its ceremonies.
Jehovah's Witnesses. (Not Christian).
Mormons. (Not Christians).
Seventh-Day Adventists.
Church of Christ adherents.
Roman Catholics.
Eastern and Russian Orthodox.
Assembly of God.

I also teach works. Works come AFTER we are saved and are a product of salvation and NOT a tool of salvation.

Do you mind defining a works based religion? What exactly does that mean, just curious. Thanks ")

 

[Major1]

Do you mind defining a works based religion? What exactly does that mean, just curious. Thanks ")

It means that they believe the blood of Jesus Christ was not good enough to save us. We must then DO SOMETHING in addition to what Jesus did on the cross.

That comes in many ways. Some very open and easy to see and some more subtle.

Example. In the Catholic faith, one must be baptized (Sprinkled). They must also take the sacraments.

The 7th Day Adventist must honor the Sabbath and not eat meat.

The AOG insists and teaches that you must speak in tongues as evidence that you are saved.

Right here on this sight many teach that we must keep or follow the law of Moses to be saved and to stay saved.

Some churches claim to be "Seeker" churches. There is in fact no such thing but the act of seeking God is working to find Him.

It is none of these. It is faith in Christ's work alone. The moment you add anything thing to the completed work of Christ before, during or after faith in Christ you are saying Christ's work on the Cross was imperfect. Let us be emphatically clear, Christ's work on the cross on our behalf was all-sufficient in the eyes of a righteous God.

Is it my faith that saves me? No, it is not even our faith that saves us. It is believing on Christ that saves us. "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe." If you say that your faith saves you, your faith has become a work, and you have something of which to boast. Faith does not save us. It is through faith in Christ that we are saved. Faith is only the instrument; it is not the cause of our justification. It is the link to the object of saving faith that is Christ and His saving work. Jesus is the righteousness that saves us.

The cause of our justification is the Lord Jesus Christ and all that He has done. We must never put anything, not even faith, in that place. Faith is only the channel through which the righteousness of God becomes mine.

 

[Major1]

Yep he is telling us about a battle we all face when we choose the way. The flesh pulls us away from righteousness. I really love that passage, it's so relatable.

Exaxctly my brother. Thanks for your observation. It is what I have been saying all along. If Paul had a problem with sin and he could not keep the law, how can anyone of us think that we can.

I believe that we all want to do good and be good and try our best to keep the commands of God, but the sin nature in all us just will not allow that to happen.

Maybe some here on this site can......but I can not. That is why our salvation is all from Christ to usward and not anything we can do for ourselves.

 

[Major1]

I was specifically talking about this verse in the post you responded to. Furthermore, God has never given a system of works, but only a system of faith and love. God's law is instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) in accordance with His character, so they can not be done away with unless God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness are first done away with. As part of the New Covenant, we are still told to follow God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 Peter 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).



You must have a pretty low opinion of God to think that He would save the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt only to put them back under bondage to His law and that throughout the Bible He was calling them from their freedom to sin and do what is right in their own eyes back to the bondage of doing what is holy, righteous, and good in obedience to His ways. Rather, as Galatians 5:1 states, it is for freedom that God sets us free, and God's law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25), while it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage. It can't be disobedience and obedience to the law as it was intended that both put us in bondage. However, God's law can be perverted into a system of works that are about what we need to do in order to become justified, which would be living in just as much bondage as living in disobedience to the law. There is a world of difference between Paul saying that obeying God's law for the purpose of becoming justified is bondage and saying that obeying God's law is bondage. It is like hearing someone speaking against using a car to drive on the bottom of a lake and you concluding that they are against driving cars on roads.



Galatians 5:16-23 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

It does not make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as saying that if we are under the Spirit that we aren't under the Mosaic law because the law being talked about is one that is against God, not one that was given by God. I mean, are you suggesting that when God gave the Mosaic law that He gave a law that was against His Spirit? Rather, the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Everything that was listed as being works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against what the Mosaic law teaches and everything that was listed as being fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with what the Mosaic law teaches, which should come as no surprise because the Mosaic law was commanded by God and the Spirit is God. Rather, if we are led by the Spirit, then we are not under the law of sin, which is the same thing that Paul was saying in Romans:

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

It is not the Mosaic law where sin had dominion over us, but rather it was the law of sin. In Romans 7:12-23, Paul said that the Mosaic law is holy, righteous, and good, that it was the good he sought to do and delighted in doing, but contrasted that with a law of sin that was working within him to stir up sin and to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, so the Mosaic law is the opposite of the law of sin.



Everyone since Moses who has acted in love toward their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law. Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so love fulfills the law because that is what it is essentially about how to do. All of the 613 commands in the OT and 1,050 commands in the NT are examples of how to correctly obey the greatest two commandments, so if you say all we need to do is follow God's command to love, so we don't need to follow His commands for how He wants us to love, then you are missing the point.



There is a theme throughout the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, and it should be extremely obvious that followers of God should follow God's commands, so Acts 15 should not be misunderstood as speaking against Gentiles obeying God's law when it is only against them obeying man's law. However, if you think that the Jerusalem Council tried to countermand God's law, then are you a follower of the Jerusalem Council or are you a follower of God? Jesus gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to God's law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6), or do you think that following Jesus is only for the Jews?

Yes. We should obey God's commands. That is not the point. The reality of life is that we can not keep the law even though we want to.

The merit of every work we try and do to be saved is groundless because faith alone is the means by which a lost sinner receives justification and reconciliation to God. "

Eph. 2:8-9................
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast".

Good works will naturally follow AFTER we are saved because God works it in the believer from within his new nature. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (v. 10 of Eph. 2).

Justification does not mean to make righteous, or good, or holy, or upright. The Holy Spirit begins to do this in regeneration and He carries it on in the work of sanctification. He will perfect it in glorification. However, justification does not refer to this renewing and sanctifying grace of God. Justification is simply a declaration or pronouncement respecting the relation of the person to the law.

We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (v. 24 of Eph. 2).

 

[Soyeong]

Yes. We should obey God's commands. That is not the point. The reality of life is that we can not keep the law even though we want to.

The merit of every work we try and do to be saved is groundless because faith alone is the means by which a lost sinner receives justification and reconciliation to God. "

Eph. 2:8-9................
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast".

Good works will naturally follow AFTER we are saved because God works it in the believer from within his new nature. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (v. 10 of Eph. 2).

Justification does not mean to make righteous, or good, or holy, or upright. The Holy Spirit begins to do this in regeneration and He carries it on in the work of sanctification. He will perfect it in glorification. However, justification does not refer to this renewing and sanctifying grace of God. Justification is simply a declaration or pronouncement respecting the relation of the person to the law.

We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (v. 24 of Eph. 2).

Someone who keeps the law is someone who practices obedience to it and repentance when they disobey it, not necessarily someone who keeps the law perfectly, so it is something anyone can do and that countless people have done, such as when the Bible describes people as being blameless rather than sinless (Genesis 6:9). Our sanctification is about being made in someone who is like Christ in being perfectly obedient to the law as he was, so that is our goal, but obedience to the law has never been about trying to become saved, so when we fail to obey it perfectly, then all that means is that we just need to repent. If we have faith in God about how to rightly live, then we will follow His instructions for how to do so, and if we love God, then we will obey His instructions, so obedience to the law has always been about demonstrating our faith and love for God and thereby building a relationship with Him.

 

[Major1]

Someone who keeps the law is someone who practices obedience to it and repentance when they disobey it, not necessarily someone who keeps the law perfectly, so it is something anyone can do and that countless people have done, such as when the Bible describes people as being blameless rather than sinless (Genesis 6:9). Our sanctification is about being made in someone who is like Christ in being perfectly obedient to the law as he was, so that is our goal, but obedience to the law has never been about trying to become saved, so when we fail to obey it perfectly, then all that means is that we just need to repent. If we have faith in God about how to rightly live, then we will follow His instructions for how to do so, and if we love God, then we will obey His instructions, so obedience to the law has always been about demonstrating our faith and love for God and thereby building a relationship with Him.

I hear you but we are speaking to "Obeying the Law for salvation".
Salvation is not something you can earn; it is a gift. You can not earn it by being obedient to God's law. You can not earn it by doing your best to please God. There is no way you can measure up to God's standards. It is a righteousness "apart from the works of the law." It is apart from the law of any kind. It is a gift of grace.

It is important to keep in mind the law could demand perfect righteousness, but it was powerless to produce the perfect righteousness that God demands. The reason is because man is sinful at the very core of his nature. Depraved sinful man can not produce righteousness in God's sight no matter how many laws he passes.

Obeying the commandments does not save us neither does it keep us saved.

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean, I appreciate your responses. I could spend a great deal of time going over each and every point you have made. I have an entirely different viewpoint now than I did 20 years ago as a new Christian. However, that is MY viewpoint and does not have to be yours. We don't need to agree here, God will lead us in whatever path we are expected to be on.

That said, I clipped the above to just to show how easily we can miss points being made. As you were quoting others, you may or may not have realized the word "them" in the above verse. If the law had flaws (a point I would vehemently challenge seeing GOD is the author of the law and He doesn't do anything that has flaws!!!) it would say "finding flaws in IT," but instead, it says "finding flaws in THEM." The problem wasn't and isn't the law (again, God is the author so it can't have a flaw) it was the PEOPLE who could not keep it on their heart as He commanded. This is why, when the covenant is renewed... the law that was on stone will be written in full, directly and by God... on the heart where He commanded His people to keep it in the first place. As Ezekiel said (11:19) the stony heart will be removed and replaced with a heart of flesh.

By the way, the verse about a change in the priesthood.... the word in Greek means transferred not changed. Both the Levitical and Melchizedekian are called EVERLASTING priesthoods. Whether we can reconcile that or not doesn't change the fact that the bible makes this claim. Understanding perhaps the function of each might help work through how and why there can ever be work for a Levite again. But to save you some time, the Levitical is a priesthood to God and Israel, the Mechizedekian is Israel and is a priesthood to the nations.

Blessings.
Ken

Like I showed you previously.

Scriptures say it had a flaw/fault. Unless you do not believe that the scriptures are true.

The law could not atone, could not declare one righteous, it could not justify, it could not forgive sin, only cover it, all it could do is drive one to the ordinances.

And that, my friend, is a fact!

God Bless

Till all are one.